Want_a_v8

Hi all, I'm a 16 y/o who's looking for a good first car that isn't a little jap beater like everyone else. I was looking into trans ams and irocs, but I recently took into account insurance costs, and realized that even though the prices can be cheap, insurance is still rather expensive. While my dad loves these cars(he had an 89 iroc vert) he seems to want me to get a small truck. Problem is, I want to get into auto-Xing and working on engines, and buying a truck won't exactly help me with those. Because of insurance costs, I've since looked into monte Carlos and el Caminos because a monte is classified as a sedan because of the b pillar, and an el Camino is half truck, but neither are available with a stick, which I really want to learn how to drive. Because of that, I started looking into tbi and v6 camaros and firebirds to get the manual t5 and eventually do an engine swap. If anyone has any information on engine/ trans swaps on any of these vehicles (f or g body) or average insurance quotes on the tbi or v6 cars that would be great. As a sidenote, I love cars, and would definitely like to get good at working on them. Thanks for any future input!

rusty vango

have your dad insure it . and add you as a driver. yes , insurance likes to rape anyone they can . but its the price you have to pay to not be driving a honda civic

Want_a_v8

Lol thanks. That's what I was saying but my parents are still a little iffy. Thanks

"John"

I got a 91 RS this summer when I was 16. Titled in my name and insured. You WILL get boned on insurance if you do this.

Want_a_v8

i figured that if i was insuring it, but i believe it will go under my parents , just having me drive it. thanks!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Insurance costs are high because insurance companies have about 35 yrs of experience with these cars that says, people who drive these cars, are STATISTICALLY (a very different thing from INDIVIDUALLY) likely to cause damage. And about 65 yrs before that with other similar cars, that appeal to other similar people who have behaved similarly. (speaking strictly for myself here)

In other words, it's all about the record of other, supposedly similar, people.

It's not about "rape", "bone", or even "ripoff". It's just the result of long years of experience.

If it makes you feel any better, the Mustang people have it even worse.

Sucks, I know. But it's just The Way It Is. Ya wanna play, ya gotta pay. Examine your priorities: if you are willing to drive a s#@!box little Happy Meal baby toy with a rattle under the rear bumper, then that Honduh is FOR YOU. If you wanna get SERIOUS, then you step it up a notch.

Want_a_v8

i do get the gist of insurance, and i know for a fact that i would care mch more a bout a nicer car(ie take better car, pay attention more etc). my parents both have a fairly clean driving record, and i have decent grades, which i hear would make it better for myself. that being said, would a v6 still cost more than say a miata or an s10 or c10?

Ty92Z

iTrader: (11)

Not sure where you live, but in NC anyone licensed less than 3 years is considered inexperienced. This inexperienced status results in higher rates no matter what car you insure. When it was time for my daughter to drive, I listed her on my insurance as a driver on a Civic that only required liability. This helped lower the premium to about 900 every 6 months. I'm sure there will be small differences between different car models, but your insurance will be substantially higher no matter what. Maybe you could get a part time job and offer to help with insurance costs. I would stay away from the anemic 2.8s, but that's just my personal preference. A tbi car is not the most powerful, but you can at least sound like you have a little power.

Want_a_v8

If I did get a v6 car I probably wouldn't drive it long stock. I would at least hop up the motor a little while I did suspension and exterior/interior repairs and build ups, and I would most likely swap motors but not in the near future. If I did get a tbi I would do some things like exhaust lt1 cam(possibly) and intake / heads though Idk if vortec heads bolt up or not. I do plan on paying for the car myself as well as helping with the insurance. Thank you btw.

Ty92Z

iTrader: (11)

Sound like a good kid. Keep in mind buying a v6 to save a few dollars on insurance will be outweighed tremendously by the cost of an engine swap. Save now, pay later type of thing.

ThirdGen1984

iTrader: (1)

Hello, in Maryland where i live i got insurance quotes of a 16 year old male with an 88 IROC-Z and that was a quote of 280 a month, the agent told me however if i went with one of the 6 cylinder equipped cars it would only be 180 a month depending on options, so in the end i got a 1984 Sport Coupe with a 2.8l carb that looks cool but insurance isn't stealing from me like they would if i had bought an iroc. Thats how it is in Maryland anyways and that is through Erie insurance and my agent was actually located in virgina i believe but he said its nationwide coverage so it doesn't matter where i live that te price would be the same

Want_a_v8

i get that. but insurance is a yearly thing whereas a swap would be one and done. i know the general price of a swap is fairly expensive but in the long run wouldn't it be cheaper? im no expert but even with a 305/ t5 combo, id probably swap it eventually(after college most likely) wouldn't it pay to get the cheaper car?

Want_a_v8

that doesn't sound too bad, but if i was to get a v6 ive been looking at the later ones (a 3.1 i believe? dont quote me on that) also ive seen some fairly cheap 3.8 fourth gens but i dont like the catfish look, and the trans ams are best looking for the formula lt1 firehawk cars. i know the 3.8 was available for a year with the lt1 look but id rather have a 3rd gen.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Might want to re-consider those 4th Gen 3.8's ('95 and '96 in the "LT1" body style).
Many more available in nice shape compared to 3rd Gen's with weaker V6's. And.. you can make some power with the 3.8, like a 100 shot, and not even care about blowing it!.....GM made about 7 million of them and low mileage junkyard ones in the FWD cars are available all day long for $500-$600.


My son's first car: 1996 3.8, immaculate condition, dealer serviced. $2300. V8's in lesser condition were going for triple that.

Want_a_v8

the big thing i have to take into account is insurance. what is the average you pay for your kids first car? the other thing my dad said was if i get a pickup like he would like me to, he said i can buy a project car for myself to build up with him or my friends. this sounds like a good idea, but like i said, i don't really want a truck, and would much rather have smaller quicker car. thanks!

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

He's $300 every 6 months here in Southern IN. Clean record and good student discount, multi-car, homeowners, yada yada with State Farm.

Want_a_v8

ok thanks! thats not too bad. i just looked up some of the specs, and while its no speed demon, its faster than my dads old iroc before he modified it. the 1/4 mile is 15.5, but 0-60 is slower at 7.3. thats not bad for a first car. and after some light mods to power and suspension it would be pretty quick around an auto-x course. i might look into some of those again.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Yep, very fun car. He's already done 3.73/posi, WS6 swaybars, Bilstein shocks, and he's turning lap times with V8 cars on the roadcourse. With a 75 shot, it went 14.3 on street tires.

Ty92Z

iTrader: (11)

Not sure you understand me. Cheaper route is for your parents to insure you as an authorized driver on whatever is the safest and cheapest car they own. Put whatever car you buy if it's a "high risk sports car" in their name and insure themselves on it, not you. The insurance cost would be ridiculously low. Yes, a swap is one and done, but swaps can tally up fast with things you don't think of especially when going from v6 to v8.

Want_a_v8

oh ok. that makes much more sense. and as for things tallying up fast, i get that. with my dads current car, when he got it it had a loose ball joint, figured we'll just replace it, and that turned into re doing both upper and lower joints as well as control arms, then an alignment, so i get the general idea. its the little things that get you. thanks

Want_a_v8

if it makes a difference, i'm looking at a few kinds of cars: f bodies, g bodies, fieros, miatas, small pickups (s10, c1o short bed, f150 short bed), jeeps, and as a last resort, fox body mustangs(because even a mustang is better than a honda) and my budget is about 3500, but i'm looking to pay less than 3k to leave some money for tune ups and mods. if need be, i wouldnt mind an srt4 neon but id prefer to stay away from front drive cars, and awd is also less preferred but more acceptable. the car i end up getting will most likely me manual, and if not, i would like to swap in one if all possible. thanks

Want_a_v8

i also forgot to mention, my parents cars are a '15 grand caravan and an '06 sonata v6 ( makes 235 hp now so not slow, but... Hyundai) so that would probably work as long as my mom agrees lol

ploegi

Bear in mind, auto to manual swaps on computer controlled cars can be quite challenging.... If you want a manual trans, buy a car/truck that already has one. Make your life a lot easier.

Dr34m

My 2 cents.

Holy sh-t how much insurance costs in the States. I pay 30bucks a month for my 89 Firebird. I am 22 tho and live in Europe.

Anyways as i am just a DYI mechanic, i have discussed possibilities with my 2.8 V6 (engine swaps etc.) and what they have told me is that IF IT IS POSSIBLE, always buy an already modified or a stock one with a more powerful engine. I had a friend who decided to put a turbo to his stock BMW. You want to know what happened after that? Yeah the car got worn out real fast. Point is that the parts were not built to withstand the kW from turbos. Same applies to suspension, transmission and a whole lot... Basically if you decide that you buy a less powerful version and tune it up to a more powerful beast (and when you are already saying you have money problems with insurance) dont get too high hopes kid. My advice would be to get a v6, learn everything about it, give it to your girl or mom and buy a v8 one and move on. Doing engine and transmission overhauls are real costy and only for fanatics who gain money working in that field.

Dont make a decision based on emotion boy . Even im still learning DYI style how to manage my V6.

Dr34m

Want_a_v8

i can get the point in that, and if i did in fact get a v6 just to swap stuff over, i would over haul the whole car piece by piece, not just drop a small block in and leave it. i already know the t5 isnt the greatest and i believe the v6 t5 is worse, though im not entirely positive. but if i want a v8, get one with a v8, dont make it harder on myself. one other thing my parents said i could do is go along with getting a truck, but then buy myself a project car of sorts, but my issue with that is there are quite a few id love to do. for one, i have always wanted a 68 corvette with the greenwood widebody, and at the same time, have wanted to get a junky 50s belair and gasser the heck out of it(think blasphemi but with a 383 stroker), and those are only two of the projects floating around in my head. i love a good challenge, and if im working with my hands,( building/ doing stuff on cars, etc) im a very focused person.

Want_a_v8

anybody? ive been inactive lately sorry

Vanilla Ice

Get a truck.

ploegi

Are they cheaper on insurance?

Vanilla Ice

Depends on the truck. I didn't see a question so I threw out my vehicle opinion.

Want_a_v8

well if i got a truck, i would be looking at 4.3 s10s or v8 shortbed(preferably stepside) c10/silverados. even then, i would rather get a car that handles, as i would like to get into autocrossing so not sure a truck is the best idea unless its just a reg cab shortbed s10. the truck was my moms idea, as she hates hauling stuff in the van. another option i could do is a roller-ish car(blown motor) and get a junkyard motor (same kind) and just replace it. yet another thing would be a carb'd 4.8 ls(lr4 i think??) swap because ive seen those dirt cheap as well. if i do that it would be a project car for the summer, as im free for basically 3 months, all day, for most of the summer(minus high adventure camp) and time wouldnt be much of an issue as i have friends and my dad has friends who all love to and work on cars that could help.(and have more tools and engine lifts to add on to our stuff) thanks for the advice!

Camaro86IrocZ

iTrader: (1)

91 - 93 Sunbird/Cavalier V6 2 door, Quick little go carts.. $500 to buy low milage cars, would think insurance would be low too..

zraffz

I'm just letting you know, a vehicle with airbags will be cheaper to insure than one without airbags. Another big factor is credit score.

At 25 years old, my 1994 S10 (no air bags. Insurance thinks it's a 4 cylinder 5 speed rwd) is $115/month.
My 2005 Silverado 2500HD with better coverage on the same policy is like $65/month.

Vanilla Ice

Whatever you do don't get an f body. Far too many people wreck their first car.

zraffz

Crossed my mind to tell him to buy a full size GM truck for that reason!

Speed is cool but the difference between a 5.7 vortec truck and most 3rd gens is not significant. Plus, we know how both will withstand an impact.

Jersey89GTA

iTrader: (1)

My son just started driving. He got an 01 -4th gen Camaro. I paid for half - he paid other half. He insisted on a V8 (z28), or he said he would start to sit down to pee if he had to have a 6 cyl. .... LOL. I said OK(hotshot), you pay the difference for V8 insurance vs V6. Deal ... Diff is about $800/yr.

In NJ, insurance is high to begin with, he pays(well I do most of the time)... $2700/yr, I did get collision for the first few years cause we paid $7K for the car. Incase he wrecked, we'd get something. So far he rearranged the exhaust, added stereo system, new wheels ... so I will probably take the collision off next renewal.

Car is in my name and insurance is also. I'm 52, he is added as a driver.
Whether in your name or your parents, can't hide from big law suits, they still come after the parents assets.

Got his first major ticket doing 80 in a 35, lawyer was $300, ticket was $135 (offense reduced by judge & lawyer ) ....

So don't be in such a hurry to go faster. Can be costly. I did the same stuff when I was a young kid, but times have changed. Especially the penalties.

What your Dad suggests is "sensible" get a truck, save money and buy a nice project 3rd gen ... eventually get it on the road after working on it.

Want_a_v8

in reply to the past few posters, although i wouldn't mind a faster car, i'm a more interested in a better handling car more than anything. as for the airbags/no airbags, i was looking at some newer 3rd gens(90+ that have airbags), but more base end models(305 tbi, 5 speed) because based off some googling around, ive seen that if you do intake, exhaust, tbi upgrade/mods, and eventually an lt1 cam, i would get a bad a** sounding car, and with a new chip burned, that can be around 200+ whp, and i definitely don't really need or want anything over 250. as it is, my dads sonata only gets 240(good but newer stuff is faster), and thats fast enough for a fwd 0-60 of like 6.4, and that's plenty fast for me. also, i'm not holding this against anybody, and not trying to sound noob-y or anything, but i'm a sensible person, and out of the older kids i know, the nicer the car, the less likely they are to have accidents or tickets. i have friends with civics that just dont care and have been in accidents or gotten ticketed because they just dont care about the car. then i have a few friends, with nicer cars(newer v8 challenger rt... hes rich but whatever, some el caminos, nice c10s and some mustangs/ camaros) who have yet to get into an accident or get tickets, and knowing myself, (and i do get a bit protective about my possessions), i would hope i'm mature and smart enough to not go wot or not pay attention while street driving... besides wot is only for the track days around here lol. also, the insurance where i live isn't that terribly bad, but its just for being a new driver etc when it gets a bit pricey, but if i insure under my parents with me as an added driver its a lot cheaper. also for the accident part of things, if i get a no airbags car, my parents would like for me to have at least a 4pt roll bar, and a harness for at least myself, so as to not break my head in two on the steering wheel. i know its not the most practical, but im not allowed to have more than 1 passenger till im 18 anyway, and it would look really cool, at least i think. besides, thats only a mom being mom-like and thinking about safety for the worse that can happen, which i definitely do not plan on crashing or anything of the manner. thanks for feedback!

Want_a_v8

also, my dad is looking at getting a newer 'fun' car, like a s2000, msm miata, or a solstice/sky gxp( he wanted like a c5 corvette but $$, he wants the gxp most) he was thinking of just keeping the sonata because my sister starts driving soon and refuses to want a stick, so he was going to let her drive that. because of that, i would have a backup car in case i dont finish a project car in time for school
quick question, anybody on here have or have had an rx8 newer than the 04's? i made one on forza a while back, and a friend just suggested one today, but i know they had some engine troubles after like 90k miles, and have the common rotary issues of mpg, oil and flooding/ heat/ cold starts. other than those, which i think are all recalls, would one of those be worth it? not too fast, can hold 4 people fairly comfortably, and its newer so probably a little safer but i dont know. so if anybody knows anything, thanks. although i still would like a 3rd gen more, 9000 rpm sounds tempting. just kidding a little, i'm not that irresponsible, though i hear you have to wind it out a few times a day so as to prevent carbon buildup. thanks!

Vanilla Ice

I witnessed a kid buying his first great handling car. A miata. He wrecked it the first night he owned it.

I know you won't but, listen to older wiser people, they are wiser for a reason.

Who you know that hasn't wrecked a car is completely irrelevant.

Get a non collector style car that will be reliable. An f-body can be, but at their age typically aren't reliable and are terrible dailies. Even though I DD mine right now... My normal DD needs an oil change and no local people stock the filter.

zraffz

Regardless of what you drive, an accident is just what it's name sounds like. It is unintentional and it can happen to anybody regardless of how good you are at driving or how nice you car is... it's much more likely to happen in a RWD posi vehicle too lol.

sonjaab

Since your 16 your gonna pay a lot! Most insurance companies won't
write a policy for anyone under 18. Even if you are a listed driver
under your dads policy your gonna pay a LOT because of a young
drivers "experience rating".

Not to mention my insurance company Geico considers ANY camaro/
bird a performance car no matter if its a v-6 ot v-8.

I am a old timer with a clean license and no accidents and they charge
me MORE for liabilityon the camaro than my buick !

Want_a_v8

ok then. if not a 3rd gen what would you all recommend? a tuck has already been thrown up, and the handling aspect i mentioned wasn't for saving from accidents, its because i want to get into autox and track days to improve my skill, and have fun doing it. already i occasionally go go kart racing, and am building a budget one for fun around the neighborhood but no idea when that will be done. but for recommendations, id prefer a coupe type thing(that handles decent) over all else, and i would prefer rwd manual. any cars you all know that i may not have heard of would be great. thanks!

zraffz

I'm not trying to talk you out of a 3rd gen, they are (or at least used to be before the prices went up) the best bang for the buck for a RWD platform being used for racing or autocross. It's just that they aren't the ideal first car and you'll certainly pay your insurance company an arm and a leg!

Insurance companies aren't stupid. Almost any car that is quick and handles good will cost you a pretty penny at your age.

On the other hand, almost anything can have a tremendous improvement in handling with a lower center of gravity and wider tires, let alone aftermarket suspension.

fan1701

Hi Want_a_V8. You should get something decent to drive that you won't be hot rodding. Your daily ride should be the date vehicle / school ride. Keep it seperate from the racing. Get something dependable and maintain it so you will never be walking home. Drag up an old Camaro and build it to race so when you blast the guts out of the engine or tranny you still have a nice ride to work and school. AND you wont be in the crosshairs of the local fuzz with the loud pipes and such. Trust me , I found a way to get tickets with my 90hp buick somerset. I didn't need big power to get in trouble. It isn't as cool as driving a v8 hotrod every day but is the smarter route. You could get a 4th gen v6 with a stick or a mustang v6 with a stick. Plenty of those floating around and should be fairly cheap. Slower and no v8 rumble but rwd and stick. Truck is always a good choice. S-10 with the 4.3 and a stick is fun. I don't reccomend driving your tuner/racer for a DD at your age. Later on you can do that. Good luck either way. Be safe on the roads whatever you decide.

al

Vanilla Ice

A 4th gen v6 is a great choice. Make it handle well, Then when you need power... turbo.

dbrochard

iTrader: (3)

I'm 16, have a 91 305TBI 5 speed, insurance is 1600 per year on my dads policy. Get the car you want that you'll be happy with. I paid for my car myself so it will be driven cautiously because I learned the value of time and money with the car, as long as money and daddy don't go out and buy you one, and you pay for it with hard earned money you will hopefully care enough about it to not be a dumbass and crash it. And the airbag was a reason I wanted a 90+ car, but after doing more research I've learned the earlier airbags are pretty dangerous

zraffz

Fantastic advice.

I've always maintained a reliable daily driver even if my other toy has 20x the amount of money invested into it. You don't need a brand new car as a daily driver as long as it's kept reliable and safe.

For the longest time I used a 1994 S10 4 banger/5 speed that I paid $600 (at the time it had like 80k miles) as my commuter vehicle. It got 20+ mpg when fuel was just shy of $4/gallon, too! To this day, I've never done any major repairs to it or been left stranded and within the next few months it's becoming my street/strip drag truck that should have no issues making 11 second passes.

While that's been my daily driver I've owned multiple 12-13 second cars. I just recently replaced it with a 2005 2500HD because I've started a small landscaping company on the side and wanted something to tow the S10 to the dragstrip.


Not to mention it really sucks when you don't have a reliable vehicle and can't go hang out with your girlfriend (I assume since you didn't ask us about a mustang that you aren't into men).

Vanilla Ice

My favorite daily driver was a reg cab 4 clay 5 speed ranger. Got 30mpg and was able to carry car parts where and when I wanted.

A dd + toy is the only way to go.

Plus having two cars means you have two cars you can rely on when one is broken or being upgraded.

Want_a_v8

OK. thanks for the advice. for the 4th gen fbody v6, i think exhaust, intake and tuning should get around 220 flywheel, because the stock rating is like 200hp/225trq. that's plenty good for me. as for having two, that was an idea i had had earlier on, then kind of scrapped thinking that was too much money, but when i started looking at cheap beater-esque cars (like s10s lol) i realized its not too crazy. i'll look more into that. thanks everyone!

Want_a_v8

thats a good one!! i never liked mustangs except for the original shelby ones- (just because carol shelby was a god amongst car tuning and racing) and the svo turbo just because it was unique, though those vse cheverras and fire ams were cooler. but yea ive always like gm stuff better. actually, i hjust had a thought. i love the cheverra camaro, and all the parts for it are available, i could get a 2nd gen camaro and get the grill and spoiler from the cheverra, then just get cheaper wide body fenders from a different company(the vse ones are like $600 each) and then do a 4.8/5.3 swap. this would of courser take a few years of working and salary to finish but its doable

Vanilla Ice

Mustangs have their place. I'd buy a coyote over a 5th gen any day. Of course now that they're finally lowering the weight it may change my mind.