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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
One quick word of advice. Before you install the engine, which is obviously aimed towards performance, knock out the three oil gallery plugs at the front, behind where the cam sprocket will run. The easiest way is to remove the three matching oil gallery plugs at the rear of the block and drive the front plugs out with a long piece of rod. Tap the holes to 1/4" pipe and install socket head pipe plugs with thread sealant, similar to the rear plugs. Tap the holes so that the plugs install flush. Also, if you plan to run a double roller timing set, you will want to carefully grind away the corners of those gallery bosses to clear the chain set. You'll see what I mean when you go to assemble. You want to get this mod done before parts go in so that you can thoroughly clean away the metal shavings.
Those drive in plugs were fine for the lo po factory motor, but when the motor is upgraded for performance, which should include an oil pump upgrade, those plugs can blow out and there goes your oil pressure.
One quick word of advice. Before you install the engine, which is obviously aimed towards performance, knock out the three oil gallery plugs at the front, behind where the cam sprocket will run. The easiest way is to remove the three matching oil gallery plugs at the rear of the block and drive the front plugs out with a long piece of rod. Tap the holes to 1/4" pipe and install socket head pipe plugs with thread sealant, similar to the rear plugs. Tap the holes so that the plugs install flush. Also, if you plan to run a double roller timing set, you will want to carefully grind away the corners of those gallery bosses to clear the chain set. You'll see what I mean when you go to assemble. You want to get this mod done before parts go in so that you can thoroughly clean away the metal shavings.
Those drive in plugs were fine for the lo po factory motor, but when the motor is upgraded for performance, which should include an oil pump upgrade, those plugs can blow out and there goes your oil pressure.
Good luck and have fun with it.
Great advice on replacing those 3 front plugs! I'm building up a 383 project with all new parts with a '880 block and this info helps me.
The '880 block has threads for the rear cam plugs, but the front cam holes have no threads. Also, initial double roller chain fitment with crankshaft and camshaft installed, there are no interference issues with a double roller setup on a '880 block. I can provide part #'s if needed.
Last edited by UltRoadWarrior9; 03-24-2016 at 06:30 PM.
"What do i think? Sorry to bust your bubble but your just getting started my friend."
Bubble was busted a while back when I flattened out my wallet!
"Those drive in plugs were fine for the lo po factory motor, but when the motor is upgraded for performance, which should include an oil pump upgrade, those plugs can blow out and there goes your oil pressure.
Good luck and have fun with it."
Those where installed by the machine shop, I do plan to do this upgrade ASAP though. I bought my tap and die set already, just haven't had a day off yet to get back to it.
"I think my freshly aquired $75 pile of aluminum will beat your pile.."
Probably so~ This is a 383, but it isn't going to be on the strip and it is for fun. This is not my first engine build, just the first one that is done 100% right, no short-cuts, no corner cutting- all by the book.
"My favorite is the dog in the doorway.... "Come on maaan. Can't I be in the picture too?"..lol"
Thats max- I'm angry with him, he just got in trouble in that pic, he chewed through my air compressor hose.
"Nice! Be like a different car altogether."
I hope so!
"What intake is that? 2116?"
2701- Performer EPS
"Looks like your Berlinetta is in for one heck of an awesome wake up call !"
Those drive in plugs were fine for the lo po factory motor, but when the motor is upgraded for performance, which should include an oil pump upgrade, those plugs can blow out and there goes your oil pressure.
What about punching those plugs with a chisel? I always assumed it was common practice because every motor I've gotten back from the machine shop looks like they used a chisel to indent the block and plugs (thus locking them in place).
Staking the plugs with a chisel is standard for stock rebuild or low level street performance engine rebuilds. This is the factory install method.
It is when we raise oil pressure with a high volume pump that generally run 70-80psi, and of course when we invest alot of money into expensive engine parts, that we want to replace those plugs with threaded. Better to spend a little time and very little money up front, than to wonder why we lost pressure on the 2-3 shift at 6,500 rpm, as we tear down our new motor to find lunched bearings.
My machinist, whom I trust absolutely, does this on any SBC that is more than a stock rebuild.
I suppose that the need to clearance the block for double roller timing set would depend on the set used. I've always used the old school Cloyes set and have needed to clearance for that. Not much, just the very corners of the bosses. A test fit before assembly is the way to go. Remember, on factory roller blocks, the cam retainer which provides added clearance.
I think my freshly aquired $75 pile of aluminum will beat your pile..
Sorry to break this to you, but unless you plan on some head and cam upgrades to the factory LS1, any healthy SBC build will eat its lunch. My 355TPI, with at least .6 of tire spin, was consistently almost a full second faster than the 02 Vette that I ran against at Woodburn Dragstrip two years ago.
I don't mean to deter you in your mission to swap in an LS1. I just want to offer some reality on the power difference between LS and SBC. Power is money either way.
"Sorry to break this to you, but unless you plan on some head and cam upgrades to the factory LS1, any healthy SBC build will eat its lunch."
I thought the same, but I didn't wan't to reply back. There are three thing's I don't do~ trash talk a man's motor, his wife, or his guitar. That usually keeps me out of trouble.
Of course. I don't mean to trash talk either. I apologize for doing so on your thread. I really just meant to keep things in perspective following the LS post. The idea has been perpetuated that the LS motors are so superior in power potential. More and more this is being dis-proven by today's leading engine builders using the latest 23 degree cylinder heads and hyd roller cams. 600hp from a normally aspirated SBC is common. The other day I saw a 434SBC making 700hp on pump gas with a streetable torque curve. 10 years ago, a 700hp SBC was race engine(12.5:1 CR and 110 octane) only territory.
Ah you Left Coasters, lol.. No worries, I was excited to see someone was on here with a "Gotta Brag" title and a What da ya think? tag,, with a pic of a old school block, as I had just got home with my new toy, and well figured, I Gotta Brag too... dollar for dollar, I'm competitive from a cost point of view.. I realize the points you make for building power, esp. stroked, I own a few others too.. We were once told in the mid early 70's that we were going to run out of oil by the year 2000... Well, Technology keeps extending what we all thought we knew.. but I digress, I do agree your 383 build is nice.. But, it needs boost, dual turbos ?? -- http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Small-Bl...K8_8EQ&vxp=mtr
Power is so easy, diverse and cheap these days compared to yesteryear..
Last edited by Camaro86IrocZ; 03-30-2016 at 12:53 AM.
Of course. I don't mean to trash talk either. I apologize for doing so on your thread. I really just meant to keep things in perspective following the LS post. The idea has been perpetuated that the LS motors are so superior in power potential. More and more this is being dis-proven by today's leading engine builders using the latest 23 degree cylinder heads and hyd roller cams. 600hp from a normally aspirated SBC is common. The other day I saw a 434SBC making 700hp on pump gas with a streetable torque curve. 10 years ago, a 700hp SBC was race engine(12.5:1 CR and 110 octane) only territory.
The SBC is alive and well and gaining steam.
I didn't take it like you were trash talking I agree in your point of view completely.
Ah you Left Coasters, lol.. No worries, I was excited to see someone was on here with a "Gotta Brag" title and a What da ya think? tag,, with a pic of a old school block, as I had just got home with my new toy, and well figured, I Gotta Brag too... dollar for dollar, I'm competitive from a cost point of view.. I realize the points you make for building power, esp. stroked, I own a few others too.. We were once told in the mid early 70's that we were going to run out of oil by the year 2000... Well, Technology keeps extending what we all thought we knew.. but I digress, I do agree your 383 build is nice.. But, it needs boost, dual turbos ?? -- http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Small-Bl...K8_8EQ&vxp=mtr
Power is so easy, diverse and cheap these days compared to yesteryear..
LOL, its an Oregon thing. I'm glad you have the know how to build the new stuff. I'm happy that I am young and doing this the CORRECT way by shelling out cash for all the machine work, quality paint, top shelf parts, ARP bolts ect... I see a lot of budget builds that are low or minimal quality and people push them off as high performance. Slapping on cheap heads, reusing worn out pistons, not thoroughly cleaning, checking and verifying specs. That is what I am proud of~ Doing it right and having a true machine that is high quality.
Where LS wins is significantly superior gasketing, way stronger bottom ends and better heads.
Guys are pushing over 900 RWHP on stock 4.8's which is nuts
900 rwhp from a 4.8? That is cool!
I have to disagree though. Here is why, if the SBC is built correctly, it can handle the same numbers. Where I see you are correct is if you compare bone stock engines, then the LS is vastly superior.
900whp with supercharging(which includes turbocharging). That says nothing about the LS's power potential. I've seen 1,600hp from supercharged SBCs(case in point is the motor used by the Flugels in their 92 TransAm for its 304mph record run). That was 15 years ago. All the same gasket technology(MLS head gaskets) is available for the SBC. As far as other gaskets, such as intake, water pump, etc., I've replaced so many of those on the LS motors, I can do it my sleep. I see atleast one a month with lean AFR faults, due to leaking intake manifold seals.
If you want to talk about strength of components, take a look at Dart's LS block. It goes away from the flimsy factory 6 bolt cap design and uses the same 4 bolt splayed caps that we have used on high power SBCs for decades.
I've heard the same stories of "1,500hp from a stock 5.3 bottom end". I can tell you that the factory LS block is twisting and flexing like a slinky long before that and it will eventually come apart.
I don't mean to turn this thread into a "who's dad is tougher" contest between the LS and SBC and I apologize once again to the OP for this. For the facts, just look at what's going on in the professional engine building industry. I will not post anymore on the subject, on this thread.
Both can make good power. I'm not sure what the max NA hp is of an SBC but more than one LS has been over 1000 hp.
Stock it's no comparison. LS wins hands down.
I've got both. And I'm not LS swapping my formula either. I'm building the L98. But working on both the SBC is a dinosaur in comparison by over all design.
However at this point I think the SBC has still been faster. So there's that too.
Both can make good power. I'm not sure what the max NA hp is of an SBC but more than one LS has been over 1000 hp.
Stock it's no comparison. LS wins hands down.
I've got both. And I'm not LS swapping my formula either. I'm building the L98. But working on both the SBC is a dinosaur in comparison by over all design.
However at this point I think the SBC has still been faster. So there's that too.
No matter, get your 383 done and installed.. You have enough work to do.. One focus at a time..
I have projects planned for this year on my 87. Exciting, a little scary, and fun all at the same time. Can hardly wait til it's done, but have to take my time to get it just right. Lol.
No matter, get your 383 done and installed.. You have enough work to do.. One focus at a time..
I know! She loves her Panzer Tank (Tahoe) anyway. The last one she flipped it and it rolled 5 times, walked away from it with nothing but her pride hurt. That is why I got her another one.
Did you do the front 3 galleries yet? Do NOT make the same mistake I did by driving the tap too deep without oiling/backing off and snapping it off in the block. Yes I got it out but man that took some brainstorming to correct.
You can also drill small .030" holes in the two front plugs that go to the lifter galleries. This accomplishes two things. First, it provides for a quick escape of any air bubbles in the lifter galleries to minimize lifter tapping on startup. Second, it provides additional lubrication to the timing chain.
No this will not screw with your oil pressure. I did this to mine with a high pressure, standard volume pump and with 10w30 I have 25psi at idle with an oil temp of 200F.
I have the tap and die set but haven't attempted it yet. I went to do it last night but I noticed he staked the plugs, and when did, he hit them hard. The holes are oval's with a couple of corners LOL. I will probably have to drill the holes round again ~
I have the tap and die set but haven't attempted it yet. I went to do it last night but I noticed he staked the plugs, and when did, he hit them hard. The holes are oval's with a couple of corners LOL. I will probably have to drill the holes round again ~
You will have to drill the holes anyways for the correct sized tap.
Not sure which casting you have, but on my block the holes for the lifter galleries were larger than the cam/main bearing gallery to begin with. I drilled them to the proper size, then tapped the two lifter gallery plugs for 3/8 NPT and the middle main gallery for 1/4 NPT.
I've always just used a 1/4" tap. You may need to clean the hole up with a round file or drill first, just don't enlarge the hole. The 1/4 pipe tap will fit just right. Of course use some kind of lubricant on the tap. Cutting oil is best but WD40 will work.
Doesn't matter what casting, all SBC blocks have 1/4" pipe plugs at the rear of all three galleries and will take the same 1/4" pipe plugs in the front. Also, if I didn't mention this before, seal the plug threads with Permatex 2A paste.
I've heard of drilling the .030 hole in one of the front plugs to help with timing chain lube. I guess it couldn't hurt as long as you stay at .030 or smaller. I've never done it and never had an issue. The timing gear is lubed by oil coming from the front crank bearing and front cam bearing.
I didn't enlarge the holes. I just used larger pipe plug on the 2 lifter gallery holes since they are bigger to begin with.
Also, One VERY IMPORTANT thing I forgot to mention. When tapping the middle hole (Cam and main bearing gallery), DO NOT tap it too deep. Look into the gallery and you will be able to see the feed hole that channels oil to the front (#1) cam bearing which then makes it way down to the crank bearing. If you tap the threads too deep you will restrict if not block all oil flow to the #1 cam and main bearings and we all know what happens next.
Tap it a bit at a time. Install the plug, then remove and continue to tap as needed until the top of the plug is about flush with the gallery boss or just slightly below. You can shine a flashlight in after to verify hole is not blocked.
If you want to help in oiling the timing chain skip drilling holes in the plugs up front and instead open up the drain holes at the front and rear of the block and take off all the casting flash. The front drains by the timing chain are up 1/4" from the floor. You can spend 1-2 hours with a die grinder on the block and really help oil circulation.
If you want to help in oiling the timing chain skip drilling holes in the plugs up front and instead open up the drain holes at the front and rear of the block and take off all the casting flash. The front drains by the timing chain are up 1/4" from the floor. You can spend 1-2 hours with a die grinder on the block and really help oil circulation.
Excellent point I forgot to mention. I did this with my block as well. There's is a lip on the inside of the drain holes in the lifter valley. I did this in addition to the .030" holes in the lifter gallery plugs.
I was wondering the same thing. It appears his block has been sleeved.
Those do look like sleeves. Not something you would generally see on a factory iron block, since these blocks are available fairly cheap. Unless it's a 400 block, which are getting more scarce. Still, the cost and questionable reliability of sleeves in a factory block vs. the fairly low cost and vast superiority of a Dart SHP?
One problem I see with relying on the front oil drain backs for oil to the timing gear is that the engine is mounted at a rear slant, and especially under any kind of acceleration, no oil is going to reach the front drains, more-so if the rears are opened up. A modification commonly done on race blocks is plugging the two drain holes that dump oil onto the rear crankshaft counter weight.
Something else noteworthy: look at the front of his oil galleries. Those are all three the same size and would take a 1/4" pipe plug. This is what I am used to seeing. I do see that the galleries on stephen's block are different. as well as on Firedemon's. If I've seen that I don't remember it. Maybe a late stage production change. When I have a chance, I'll talk to my machinist about it and find the answer.
Good point from Firedemon on the oil feed hole at the front of the main oil gallery. Fortunately, the feed hole is back just enmough in the passage to be safe if you just keep the plug flush. Unfornutately, on the factory blocks that top gallery is the only passage from the pump. All oil, including oil to the main and rod bearings passes through that gallery. That's a benefit to a performance aftermarket block, "priority main oiling".
Are you guys talking about my block? If so, I think you are noticing that I've had it machined to accept O rings. More common for boosting sbc. A properly done sleeve should almost be invisible. If they were that obvious to spot I'd want nothing to do with that block....
I thought about that, however decided against the drilling. For what I'm doing, I found it unnecessary and just kept the mods basic. IE smoothing out the lifter valley, enlarging and radiusing drainbacks, .030 holes in the ghallery plugs. smoothed and ported the rear main cap and etc.
I used a Melling M55 standard volume pump with a 70psi relief spring. with 10w30 it holds around 25psi at idle woith a 180-200F oil temp.
I watched those videos when I was building my motor. Cool stuff they're doing, but the drilling wasn't really needed. My setup is hotter than what they built and I don't even need it.
03-24-2016, 01:20 PM
LC9 5.3 - Dealer Diagnosed DOD #4 misfire lifter issue at 97k, Owner decided install new, Even if block is toast, Nice 799 Heads... 
