LiveIt!

Hey guys, I'm really excited with the progress I've made on my '88 Sport Coupe!

I reinstalled the distributor today and reset the timing (lined up the big notch on the harmonic balancer to 0) and lining up the rotor to point to the #1 post. I'm now getting spark into the engine! The only issue is the engine is still not starting, even with starting fluid. I'm guessing it's a timing issue? I did this without finding TDC, but I read that I had a 50/50 shot of getting it right without finding TDC. It didn't start the first time, so I figured I had the distributor 180 degrees out. I tried fixing this by swapping the wires on the dist. cap 180 degrees around, but that didn't get me any firing either.

Where should I go next? Guessing it's a timing issue...
Thanks in advance guys!

zed-028

Is this the car where you're assuming that the Ignition Control Module is good?

If you are getting spark, have fuel but dont even get a single fire id be looking in 2 places

1 Ignition control module - hate to keep harping on about it but theyre a pain in the a$$

2 Drop the exhaust at the Y pipe behind the manifolds/headers, pull the plugs, wipe them and fire it up.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

You might need someone to assist you to make sure your at tdc.
Pull the drivers side front plug #1 cyl.
Have someone turn the ignition switch just bumping the starter.
Do this with your finger on the number 1 plug hole.
When you feel pressure you are on the compression stroke.
Align the timing mark on the balancer to zero on the timing tab.
Drop in the distributor so the rotor is at 5-7 clock position.
Put the cap on and mark the dist body where the number one post is. Pull the cap off and align the rotor to the housing mark.
If the oil pump shaft is not aligned you can use a screw driver to align it or bump the starter and the distributor will drop.
If the timing is too advanced when you try to start the engine will lug.
Firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.
You will need to disconnect the est to set timing to tdc zero.
Now that you finally have spark while cranking you should see the injectors firing with the air cleaner off.

LiveIt!

Thanks guys! I'll double check the TDC. I forgot to mention it's getting spark at the spark plugs, not just at the ignition coil. If I'm at TDC and still not sparking, I'll go through the ICM, exhaust, and the plugs themselves just in case. Thanks!

Just on question- What do you mean by 5-7 clock position? I have the 2.8 V6, can I just align the rotor so it's at the #1 spark plug position?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I thought this was a v8 never mind. I don't know where the reference of the rotor is on the 2.8l . It doesn't matter much as long as you can obtain the required factory timing.
Once the distributor is installed correctly assuming the car sat for along time you might want to spray starting fluid in the throttle body. The injectors might be clogged with varnished fuel.

LiveIt!

Thanks for the advice TP, I did the TDC thing and lined up the mark, she fired right up for the first time since I've owned her! That's a REALLY great exciting feeling!

She'd only run for a second off of starter fluid, so the next step is the fuel system. I had to hotwire the pump to get it to turn on, but the car wouldn't start again (maybe flooded it with starter fluid?) so I could test if she was getting fuel to the injectors/the injectors were firing. Oh well, progress is progress! I'm a very happy third gen owner today

zed-028

Nice work - Fuel systems are fun to troubleshoot.

From memory there is a fuse near the battery that is quite important for the fuel pump relay to work. If its like the other models, then the fuel pump should run by itself once the engine detects oil pressure, but wont do so if the fuse or the the relay have gone bad.

Being injected the likelihood of it firing and running for any length of time is minimal due to the amount of pressure that is required from the injection system.

Start simple with stuff you can replace for cheap. drain the tank (maybe flush but up to you) check the condition of the pump - might as well replace while you have it out, replace the filter, replace any hoses at in the engine bay (theyll probably be weak as)

If you get it running, hold a screwdriver to your ear and put the pointy end on the injectors - if its clicking its probably ok, if its silent then itll be dead, check the connection, or replace.

keep us posted how you go!

LiveIt!

Thanks Zed I sure will!

I actually replaced the fuel pump and filter when I first got the car, that's what the PO said it needed so I started there c:
I checked the fuse before and it looked good, and the relay is new. At first I tried hot wiring the pump by giving 12v to the center contact on the relay connector, didn't power the pump but made something near the battery click, wonder what? I had to give it 12v and ground at the connector behind the back seats, then it ran well!

Tomorrow I'll probably try finding the schrader valve to make sure I'm getting fuel, and check the injectors like you said if she's still a no-go. Luckily I have a full spare set I pulled out of a junkyard 3.1 engine just in case! I'd like to at least see the car run a bit before I go on a fuel system goose chase xD

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Sounds like you blew the fuse next to the battery.
Once you replace the fuse , see if you have a 2second prime key on engine off.
If you do you have a oil pressure switch issue.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

This is for tbi / tpi the ecm location will be different but this should apply to your car.

Jumpering the orange to great wire of the ops will power the fp. The ecm controls the relay for a 2 second koeo prime. As you can see c is ecm power to control the relay.
B is a ground. A is power to the pump e is higher current power to the relay that when activated goes out a.

LiveIt!

Thanks for the diagram TP! I checked both 20A fuses next to the battery but they both look good. I tried to get the car started again today and she wouldn't go, weird! I checked and thankfully I'm still getting spark, wonder what could've happened? fell out of time somehow?

I checked at the shrader valve and with the pump hotwired I'm not getting any fuel to it, but I can hear it pouring back into the tank. I'm hoping it's from the fuel return line, but if it is why am I not getting fuel to the injectors?

And so the Sport Coupe Chronicles continues.....:P

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Sounds like your pulsator in front of the pump is leaking . I always toss the pulsator and replace it with fuel hose and clamps.

LiveIt!

That's what I figured, something in the tank's leaking. I'll check it out over the weekend

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

You can pinch off the return flex line in the engine compartment to see if fuel pressure goes up at the schrader but sounds like the issues at the pump

zed-028

Ha! i had this with an old pump, theres a tiny piece of hose that joins it to the line in the tank, my hose was perished/non existant which meant that fuel was passing through the pump, and then spurting out and going nowhere

almost like a low pressure fountain. ill see if i can find my picture of what i mean.

zed-028

the pump wasnt joined to the rail at all! and i heard fuel pouring back into the tank

Good thing you're dropping it

LiveIt!

That's hilarious Zed! :P xD

You nailed it TP, it was leaking like a sieve full of holes! Replaced with straight line and there's now fuel galore at the schrader valve (with the pump hot wired, haven't figured that issue out yet but plan to this weekend

Only as usual with this car, another issue has popped up. I've lost spark! Neither at the engine nor at the distributor
I was getting spark yesterday but it was weak and not firing the engine (dead battery) so I had it on charge overnight. Just put it back in and nothing!
It's always something with this Sport Coupe...

Maybe another ICM failure? I'll check for 12v at the coil tomorrow, need to pick up another multimeter since this car wore my old one out
Interesting enough my blinkers aren't working anymore for some reason either...Everything else seems fine. Maybe something electrical? Blinker fuse is fine.

Thanks guys, will keep posted

LiveIt!

Nvm guys I fixed it myself, was the pickup coil :P

I'll be honest I did quite the number on my old distributor shaft trying to replace the pickup coil, so I had to buy another one off a junkyard '91 3.1 . That had the pickup coil and looked good, and ran the car at first, but I guess it failed out of nowhere after charging the battery. Replaced it with the new pickup I originally bought to replace the old one and a bit of very clever ******* ingenuity and VOILA my car has the brightest spark it's seen since....God knows when haha :P

Just gotta readjust the timing in the morning and with any luck she'll be up and running tomorrow!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Great news

LiveIt!

Took 3 times but got the timing in order, she's firing! I had the pump rigged and the car started acting like it was trying to start back up on fuel, and ran a little bit if I held the key in the cranking position. SO CLOSE!

I'll take a shot at this myself....injectors? I have a set off of a 3.1 engine, are they compatible with my 2.8? Or can I get by with cleaning the ones in my car?

Thanks guys

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Iirc they are the same for 2.8 & 3.1l

zed-028

try getting it to properly fire on starter fluid first, hopefully that will dry the plugs out enough. they could be starting to foul now. either that or pull them and give them a wipe

LiveIt!

She's firing great on starting fluid, I think I'll pull them tomorrow and try cleaning them up a bit and testing them just to be safe. Considering how many times I've had the intake manifold off on this car it shouldn't be too difficult of a task xD

Thanks again

LiveIt!

Was windy and cold out today, rescheduled the fuel-injector-ectomy for tomorrow :P

The car is now at least starting reliably, with the fuel pump running you can start it right up, but it doesn't keep running. Weird! I'm sure whatever's going on will be revealed in tomorrow's operation

zed-028

if she doesnt start reliably after you pull the injectors, drop the exhaust off just in front of the cat... see if she starts then

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Tip for the next time, use a carburetor gum cutter such as Berkebile 2+2. Cuts through the varnish quickly allowing the shaft to come out. Also good for lifters that have varnish rings that prevent them from easily being removed from the bores.

RBob.

LiveIt!

Thanks for the tip RBob, I came up with a tip myself- get a thick cinder block (the kind with two wide holes) and 2 bricks. Put the bricks above the hole so you can turn the distributor shaft upside down and rest that metal plate that the ICM screws onto on them, with the pickup coil facing down into the block. You can now very easily knock the shaft out!

I decided to go ahead with the catalytic converter route, that made more sense to me than failing injectors because the car would start right up, then die out (clogged exhaust). 2 days of wrestling with removing the cat and it didn't fix a thing xD
Oh well, at least now I have a custom exhaust :P
Ripping injectors out tomorrow, will keep posted

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Just a FYI, if the cat is plugged removing the o2 sensor will allow the engine to somewhat breath.

zed-028

how on earth did it take 2 days to pull the cat? thats amazing...

LiveIt!

Really it was more of a 4-hour job spread out over 2 days... :P

I got the injectors out and they were CAKED in old fuel grime at the top, So I swapped the injectors from the 3.1 fuel rail I have to the 2.8 rail (if anyone out there is wondering, they're different rails!) Hoping they'll match up and go in without hassle tomorrow

LiveIt!

OK 3.1 injectors are in, but car is acting strange- I still have spark but now the car won't start off starting fluid. Temp gauge goes up while cranking and after cranking the oil gauge will peg then go back to 0 (which is strange since I don't think I've seen it move since I've owned the car.) I double checked to make sure I didn't knock anything out while installing the injectors, the only thing I can think of is the vacuum line coming out of the manifold? The 3-way connect already had 2 hoses busted off and the car would start, but I broke the final today and now the car isn't cranking. Could this be it or is there other things I should check?

Thanks in advance cx

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I wonder if there is a issue at the bulkhead connecter next to the master cylinder c100.

zed-028

block it on the manifold facing side. should at least let you get it started.

did you ever get that ICM tested?

LiveIt!

I'm pretty sure the ICM is good Zed, the car has started and ran great off of starting fluid, just this came out of nowhere after installing new injectors :P I think I got it figured out today, looks like the timing got a bit out of line. Was able to get it halfway firing, going to try adjusting her further tomorrow until she's firing reliably again, then I'm on to testing my injectors!

Wish me luck

zed-028

have you manually verified where Top dead centre is? forget the mark on the balancer as it could be off - do it manually and then work your timing from there

seems odd that it will half fire and sound like firing and never actually fire. almost sounds like you're too far retarded (the car not you) and unable to get a decent fire at the right time. try advancing it, youll know if you go to far as youll get half a crank and thats it.

LiveIt!

LMAO Zed xD
I'll just try reseting TDC again this afternoon and see where that gets me

LiveIt!

Small update, car fires right up off of gas, but doesn't stay running. Ran at most 2 seconds today xD

Maybe a fuel pressure issue? Anything I should check?
Has me stumped, unless it's somehow leaking in the tank again....

zed-028

good progress then

so going back through the posts - you hotwired the pump to get it to work, was it replaced at any point? and was the filter replaced?

LiveIt!

Yep! filter and pump were the first things I replaced when I got the car. It's rated at 18gph. I had to hotwire it because it doesn't turn on by itself, most likely due to a bad oil pressure sending unit. I looked through a couple old posts and it looks like a bad oil pressure sending unit can stop the car from running too (which makes sense- car starts up, computer sees there's no oil pressure, shuts car off). Either way I'm replacing it tomorrow, at the very least I should at least have a functioning fuel pump :P

RBob

iTrader: (1)

All wrong. The oil pressure switch is in parallel with the fuel pump relay. It is a backup or a redundant switch. Also, the ECM has no idea what the oil pressure is.

You need to start troubleshooting and stop shotgunning.

Two things right off, put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail and make sure it the pressure is in the 43 - 47 psi range with the pump running and the engine off. Now crank to start and make sure that the fuel pressure doesn't drop below 38 psi. It will drop some due to manifold vacuum on a running engine.

Second, measure the resistance of the injectors. Any that are lower then 11 ohms are bad. This is a common failure for the stock injectors and will cause the exact symptoms you mention. Engine cranks and runs but dies with more throttle (longer injector PW).

RBob.

LiveIt!

Sorry for the shotgunning, I'm learning as I go along here haha

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge but will look into getting one
I did test the injectors today tho, they were all at about 13 ohms.

I'm wondering if this could be vacuum related? Some of my lines are broken or missing. I don't have a line running from the "vac reg" valve to the vac switch, but there is a line dangling in that area to the left of the dist. I also don't see where that "to inlet manifold" connect connects into the manifold, there is a connection on back of the manifold with 1 thick line that goes into the master cylinder, and a "T" with two lines coming out of it; one wasn't hooked up to anything and sealed with a screw, the other runs to what I think is called the "throttle baffle" next to the charcoal canister. There's a T in that line too with a line that goes nowhere...

Sorry if that's all confusing, I'm just wondering if any of that could be messing with the fuel regulator?

Thanks in advance

Diagram I'm using-
https://i.imgur.com/aM9pgTF.jpg

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

13 is really low impedance for those injectors.

LiveIt!

I was thinking about that TP, I tested the injectors I replaced too and they were testing at about 26 ohms. I think tomorrow I'll clean them up and see if they'll get me anywhere. (:

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I think they should ohm around 15-16 ohms.

LiveIt!

I went out and double checked just now, they're at 16 not 26 ohms

Will keep posted

LiveIt!

Alright I got an update, the issue isn't that I'm not getting ENOUGH fuel/fuel injectors are bad, it's that I'm getting TOO MUCH fuel. The car is flooding out, spark plugs are caked in carbon.

The issue now is, why? Already replaced coolant temp. sensor (read this could give false readings to computer & lead to too much fuel being injected), going to research what I should check next...

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

They could be all fouled from trying to get it running.
With a fp gauge you could see if you have leaky injectors if you have fast fuel pressure bleed off after prime. Check engine light on ? , could be a bad maf,ecm, tps

LiveIt!

No check engine light, I tried the trick with unplugging the MAF, no dice. If you hold the throttle down and try to start the engine, then try to start it with the throttle released, it'll fire right up and run for a few good seconds before flooding out, the exhaust smells rich. I doubt it's an issue with the fuel injectors themselves, it's done this with both my original 2.8 injectors and my replacement 3.1 injectors, and I know the 2.8's don't leak.

Thanks TP, I'll look into doing some troubleshooting tomorrow

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Flooring it cuts injector pulse it's called clear flood mode.

LiveIt!

Thanks for the info
I'm betting it's a vacuum issue, I've traced all my lines with this diagram - https://i.imgur.com/aM9pgTF.jpg - and I'm missing one that runs from my vac switch to the vac reg valve. There's one line hanging by the distributor that's hard plastic like the others, I'm betting that has to be it!

I need to fix the 2 small lines that come out the back of the upper plenum too, one I know goes to the thing next to the charcoal canister (Can't find what it's called, think it pumps air into the manifold) and the other was just sealed with a screw when i got the car :P

Will keep posted