Ed Maher

I figured i'd post this as it's own thread, cuz i thought everyone would be interested in it. Here's the skinny...

old - - - - new
2.063 - 1.875 - 60'
5.960 - 5.689 - 330'
9.193 - 8.924 - 1/8
75.67 - 75.64 - mph
12.007 - 11.734 - 1000'
14.380 - 14.106 - 1/4
95.24 - 95.37 - mph



I picked up almost 3 tenths JUST by swapping torque converters. Everything else was the same, even the PROM and FP were the same, and weather was very similar as well, only slightly warmer today. And there is definitely more in it. My trans isn't cooperating as far as shift points, so i'm sure there's a fraction of ET / MPH in getting that figured out. Also, honestly, this thing is just a little too loose. I'm flashing this converter over 3k rpms off the line, and my shift recovery rpm from a 5k shift 2-3 went from ~3300 with the old converter to 4200 now. Basically this poor little stock 305 just doesn't have the power and RPMs to use this converter, ideally it would be a step or 2 smaller. BUT, as soon as a siamesed base and / or a cam is in the mix this thing would really wake up, which was the plan all along. Still, 3 tenths is nothing to sneeze at even for being non-optimal.

So, i now feel quite comfortable telling everybody and their grandmother to get a vigilante if you have an A4 and you want to lay down some serious ET. Or you can try to figure out an excuse for a stock 305 leaving you at the line like you were standing still, kinda like this guy http://home1.gte.net/res0t8sj/vert/extension.jpg

If a stock TPI 305 can gain so much from a huge converter, imagine a real engine. Oh thats right, real engines (LS1s, built SBCs, etc) all pick up at least 1/2 second. Basically, you cannot go wrong with a vig no matter what you have done to yor car.

Combo is:
- 305 TPI / 700r4 / 3.23
- Ported plenum
- SLP 1 5/8 headers, coated, dual cats
- Flowmaster cat back w/ improved Y, single outlet 3" 30 series.
- Custom PROM (by me)
- Holley AFPR
- 22lb injectors, flowmatched
- Relocated LT1 MAT, Free Mods
- Accel wires / cap / rotor / shorty plugs - KN filters
- 1LE / JG1 aluminum shaft
- Mobil 1 in the crankcase and rear
- Vigilante converter (~3k stall)
- Dunlop SP 5000 tires - 245/50 - 255/50

And yes, i ran those 60's on real dunlop street tires and with a COMPLETELY stock suspension. And my vert is fully optioned including leather and dumb **** like power mirrors, so i'm definitely carrying weight with me.

8Mike9

Vigilantes have always been known to pick up .2-.5 on the ET's over stock converters.

What i find interesting is your MPH increased aswell. All the before after comparisons I've seen, have shown the Vigilante to decrease the ET AND the MPH...

I wonder if they are building them differently now? The MPH drops I've read about are usually in the 2-3MPH range, meaning they suck up some HP, but due to the improved lauch, yeild better ET's.

That' cool, you're the first that I've seen that has improved MPH with a Vigilante....

.3 for 600-700 bucks and a Saturday, is a nice improvement, IMO.

Bort62

holy 60' batman!

1.8x on street tires with a stock 305 and 3.23 gears... Muehahahah

Ed, let me borrow it for a few runs... haha )

IROCZZ3

I think it proves that there's a reason why these converters cost as much as they do. It's not uncommon to see trap speeds go up as well with the Vigs or Yanks...that's the benefits of having a high quality and efficient converter.

Also proves that a converter will reap more gains than a gear swap. Damn, 1.8s on 3.23s on street tires....with a 305! That kicks azz Ed...:hail:

Rob P

iTrader: (1)

I'll add one to the list of things I need for my ZZ4TPI 89RSconvt!
I was getting 1.96 60ft times when I had the old L98 motor in her. Plus I eventually want a Spohn torque arm.
Too much to do and too little mullah!
p.s. I still have a LT4 hotcam and LT1 intake in the garage

WS6Formula350

I have an 700r4 tranny, can a orque converter from an A4 (assuming that's a 4tth gen tranny) be used in the 700r4. Any help would be great, I'm a little in the dark on this subject. By the way congrads ED

new87

Just to let you know, A4 stands for automatic 4 speed. So your 700R4 and a fourth gen 460LE are both A4 transmissions.

His question is answered everyone leave him alone.

BuckeyeROC

That's good to hear, I have one waiting to go in if my tranny ever gets here.

TRAXION

I'll also support what Ed said. When I FIRST did heads / cam on my Large Tube Runner setup I could only manage a 13.0@107 on a 1.99 60ft. With the 2800 stall I dropped to 12.5 @ 108 on a 1.71 60ft.

Tim

esams

Yeah, converters are it. I honestly think think that the Yanks even have a bit of an edge on the Vigalante's, too. Mike Senia uses certain materials that PI doesn't to gain even more efficiency.

My stock LS1 car gained 8 tenths on street tires with 3.42's and a Super Yank 3500.

4200 ft. elev. in Salt Lake...

Old time 13.94@102

New time13.09@103

http://www.converter.cc

Ed Maher

This is a commentary on driveability i made on another board just a few days after i had it in, to give those of you wondering what it is like in that regard:

I still basically stand by a lot of that. I do think i made it sound a little more extreme than it was, like i said, that was after just having it for a few days so i wasn't even used to 'how' to drive it. Now that i have the feel of it down i can keep the rpms a little lower than i made it sound in there, but it's till really easy to get into to fun zone and really make that converter work.

and don't forget stall doesn't matter in cruise because the TCC is locked up. So real driveability isn't affected at all.

Slow89Iroc-Z

What model Vig did you get and what was the advertised stall speed?

Ed Maher

I don't even know exactly what it is. I bought mine off guido and got his free stall change, asked for somthing that was 2800, flashing at 3k or so. I wanna say it was a #5 pump, but i could be off base. I got exactly what i asked for though if thats any consolation...

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

You need some traction to really make a comparison between the 2 vertors. I can't hook up with my 3500 Yank to save my life, even on crappy nitto drag radials. Gettin some slicks now.

I can spin the tires at 55 mph on the freeway now, couldn't do that before even with a 2400 stall convertor.

I agree that this is the best and most underthought of mod for an auto. I'd make this swap even on a stock 305 car.

The higher your rear gear, the tighter the convertor will feel. The 3.73's I have now make the convertor less loose than the stock 3.27's.

Put some 3.73's in and get some et streets or slicks and find out what you've been missing.

Chet

Sounds like a excellent mod. How much do these converters cost, Vigilante, Yank, ect..?

Acceld Z

I'll vouch for the Vigi but I think you might be forgetting something. After seeing those numbers I'd have to say you know how to drive a car at the strip. Honestly, that is an awesome 60ft time. Same goes for Trax.

BobMachus

I got my Vigilante 2 days ago. I am going to wait a bit to install it, as convertible Corvettes are a giant hassle to do work on from underneath. All the guys on the Corvetteforum swear by these converters. I am very excited to try this out.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Yup, I will be buying 1 of those some day. I hope to see a nice improvement on an L98, a real engine right.

Ed Maher

Well, not to too my horn but i could have told you that. Even though the weather was similar between the runs the ground was a lot colder last time. I think i was the only person not on full slicks hooking that night Beat a couple low 13 second cars that night cuz they couldn't get out of the hole so they were turning mid 14s @ well over 100.

I also used to run my 85 to high 13s on a 3.08 one legger pullin consistent 2.0s with cheap tires on it to boot.

It's just all about keppin it from spinnin. Your average joe at the track just won't face the fact that if you want to lay down ET you have to know how to load the suspension and walk it out of the hole. I've been doing it so long it's practically second nature to me now...

88ROC1LE

iTrader: (4)

So lets see, I'm planning a vette head swap and some intake porting, so the next step would be a t/c? What stall would be good for a daily driver/weekend warrior and my setup/future set-up?

Swapmaster

Just to clarify what new87 said, a 4th gen 4L60E converter will
not fit a 700R4. I know that wasn't the question but just wanted
to clarify that point.

Guido

And now the tech tip for the month in my sig is proven.

:lala:

TRAXION

How the heck can it be undiscovered when I proved it a couple years ago?



Tim

Ed Maher

Easy, everybody is too busy running around stuck in the same old circles of thought instead of stepping back and realizing that there are thirdgens laying down good numbers giving us a model for how to perform
Maybe now that it's been shown to be so effective even on a stock weenie 305 people will realize how vital to the performance of an auto tranny the TC really is. I think too many people were stuck in a rut thinking that nice TCs were reserved for more serious combos, which i demonstrated isn't true.

Matt_91RSTPI

Ed, what cam are you looking at?

Basically, I think I would have to do a cam swap as well to really make the TC worth while since I have the '91 TBI cam. Promblem is, if I do a cam, I'd be hard pressed not to do heads too, but then alot of tuning comes in and I'd be defeating the purpose of leaving the car stock and reliable.

-Matt

transform

I've been searching for prices on OEM tc's and can't seem to find anything. What's the price difference in a stock tc and say the vig tc. The reason I ask is I am in the process of a tranny rebuild (damn 700r4's!) and I might as well do it sooner rather than later.

Thanks

Ed Maher

If this thing gets a cam it'll likely be a comp XE grind w/ 212/218 on a 112-114 LSA. There is an outside chance i'd run the ZZ4 as well if it fell in my lap at the right price

Ed Maher

Are youy sitting down?

Approximate cost of a GM TC (such as the infamous S10 piece) $150-200

Vigilante $750

But you get what you pay for....

ImportsRsloths

A MUCH BETTER MOD WOULD BE AN ADJUSTABLE TORQUE ARM.....

Guido

Yes Im sure it would be.

DUHR.

Hey Tim, its the best undiscovered mod because everyone thinks they need an MSD box or a new set of MSD wires when they buy their car.



Maybe I should say, the best forgotten mod on thirdgen.org

brian89transam

4L60s won't fit on a 700R4 huh? I know I know, I didn't figure it would but it's too bad cause there's always used ones for sale on other boards. Usually $400-$500.

Insomniac92z28

The LT1 4L60E trannys and the 700r4 convertors are interchangable. They changed them when they went to the LS1. I paid $500 for my 3500 Vigilante used out of an LT1 car.

Charlie

Roostmeyer

iTrader: (3)

I know midwest isn't quite in the same ball park as the PI's and Yanks, but I got my midwest 3500 for $225 (used) shipped to me. Should be going on with my head and cam swap in a week or so...

Charley, have you seen my head(s?) yet? Chris mentioned sending a pic, but he hasn't gotten around to it yet.

SMasterson

Well, since this is back from the dead and I didn't have one then...

I love my Vigilante! 1.88 60' with BFG drag radials in a 4000# pickup truck feel awesome! (Stock suspension)

Also, mashing about halfway down on the throttle at 40mph and breaking the 275/50/15's loose on the street is going to get me in trouble! The thing hits HARD at about 3400.

Also, like Ed, after a few day it didn't even feel loose anymore. Drives almost normal.

Best $400 I spend so far. (New, unused, off eBay!) It was non-lockup, which the tranny was already setup for , and I guess nobody else wanted it.

ps. I know, I got in on this thread a little late!

XJOSHX

How much time did your converter take off of the quarter? Did your MPH go up or down? Reading this post has me wondering why some people lose and some people gain mph........

JR92z28

How streetable is this TC for a daily driver?

Or better, what size TC is best for a daily driver? 2800/3200?

OMINOUS_87

Perfectly streetable, remember that when it matters most your converter will be locked up anyway.

I got a Vigi 2800rpm unit, my 385 motor flashes it to about 3200rpm though.

I run 3.73s behind the Vigi, it puts power to the ground in a sick way.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

well with all the talk about weenie 305s using the vig converter i just had to jump in here. i am runnin a Vig 2800 from an LT1 car. my other mods are in my sig. i will get new numbers as soon as i get my new chip from pcmforless.com. but i will say this thing is a friggin truck now. anywhere in 1st gear it will spin hard, sometimes i will spin hard enough to actually smoke the tires. and with the 'vette heads i have so much more midrange power now this thing is a differnt car. based on some of the street racing i have done lately i am guessin the car to be in the mid to low 14s somewhere, (for some reason it feels like it kinda lays down in 3rd gear sometimes) and yes that is still on my stock chip. i plan for 13s after the chip gets here. along with the heads i put on, that is teh best mod for this car yet. and yes i can get it to hook on the radial TAs, i just stall it up to about 2000rpm(brakes wont hold it any higher) and let off teh brakes and walk it off the line like Ed Maher said.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

I bet your faster than you think. Im running 14.2 on a stock verter. You got heads, better cam.....your faster than you think Im sure. You mean with a 2800 stall the brakes only hold till 2000? Shouldnt it be more?

So you say now with the stall you can burn the tires and beofe you couldnt? I still cant and I want a stall for that reason and for the strip...

see ya!

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

Way to go with the 60 ft's. I basically have the same mods and car like you Ed.

Weird question though, do you think that if you got a "built converter" at a tranny shop that the difference would have been any different. Not saying a gm stall but a professionally built one.??! with the same stall rpm??

LB9GTA

bigals87z28

damn that is a ton of money for a TC. Im looking for a good 2600-2800 stall with my ZZ4 cam and ported heads combo. Im also looking for a 3.42 4th gen rear end to help me out. 2.73's are teh sux0r. What exactly is the advantage of the Vig over lets say... TCI or B&M?

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

Wishmaster; yah with my stock converter and the 214/224 cam the car wouldnt spin unless i power braked it, it ran a 14.8 @ 94mph. so to say the least, the converter did what i wanted it to do, give me lost of traction problems, LOL. as far as stall speed with the brakes applied, once i get the rpm above 2000rpm or so the brakes wont hold the car and it will start to creep. if i had slicks and could make it hook at wide open throttle i would probably see the converter flash to its advertised stall speed. or if i had stronger disk brakes and could make the car hold i could probably stall it up higher. regardless of wether my brakes hold or not the increased torque multiplication of these converters and their exceptional build quality is what sets them apart and makes them worth the money

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Thats good to hear!
With the weenie LT1 cam I put in I also lost my low end and cant smoke the tires unless I power brake it. I have read its because I put 1.6 rollers on it which bumped to cam to 207/210 477/490 nieghborhood
Im glad to hear that once you put the highere stall in, that it gave you back your lost traction problems. I want mine back. I wanna be able to smoke the tires from a dead stop without having to hold the brakes to do it and also help me with my 60's to get me down the track faster!

I cant wait to get it...Im about 2 weeks out...need to get the house roof done and the money I have left over is going into the car...gotta love insurance checks!

KBeez

Hey I've heard a couple of you point out that you pulled the tc from an lt1 car.... so does that mean lt1 cars come with vigilante's stock or what? maybe a dumb question but I was getting confused for a sec....