norcalz28

iTrader: (13)

Man, so glad I don't have to do that shiz anymore

cuisinartvette

Your 180s will feed that motor just fine

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

If you totally disregard common sense. That is too much cam for the 180s, given the CSA. The cam is speced to make power to 5900 RPMs, they heads are going to choke that, and bring that number down. Reducing RPM reduces HP and reduces speed.

IMO he needs more CSA to take full advantage of the rest of the combination.

He's leaving "power on the table" using too small heads. Why do people like to spec dumptruck engines?

big_G

Although I would like to see 190cc intake runners on 350 ci engines, the AFR 180 will flow waaaay better than L98 heads. In reality, both the heads (180's) AND the induction (intake tract) are about done at 6k. I say git 'er done and set it up on the dyno. Should be good numbers.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'm gonna say 180's will feed a 268xfi TPI based motor just fine, as the intake will not let the cam get to its full potential of 6000+ rpm. The heads can support up to 6K rpms just fine. 195's will go to the high 6000's. If you did 195's, i'd go a slight bit larger on the cam to get up in the high 6000 rpm range and switch intakes....but for the TPI intake setups, I think that will work just fine.

I've tuned a 280xfi cam on old AFR 190's with HSR on a L98 motor and it runs pretty strong but I think the heads are a touch small and dont flow anywhere near what the motor really wants. It outruns my bolt on 99 LS1 trans am tho.
A set of newer heads in the 195-200 cc range and a good 20-25cfm more across the board with a larger valve will help that motor go to the mid 6000 rpm range it really wants with that cam and intake. Right now i think its done at 5800-6000 but it may be slightly due to valve float with the weaker springs in the heads. It shifts at 6000-6200 depending on gear.

268xfi can support a 355 to 6200 rpms easily. 1989GTATransAm has been up that high with mid 350-360whp numbers with possible valvefloat. The better the top end, the better the results will be from the cam. 180's will compliment the TPI range, but if you had a short runner setup, 195's and let it eat.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"1989GTATransAm has been up that high with mid 350-360whp numbers with possible valvefloat."

That is correct and to make sure everyone is on the same page the valve float was with the Dart Pro One 200cc heads with 2.05 valves that were .100" longer making them heavier than normal.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

To also note, stock LT1's have made hp peaks way above 6000rpm on stock LT1 heads which are smaller than anyone's 180 cc head

big_G

Good point. Most of the solid lifter engines from the mid to late '60 Chevys made power peaks at about 5,800 rpm's with puny 160-165 cc intake runner heads, with very low (less than .480) lift cams. Of course, the cubic inches were 327 or 350,...not 383-406 like many being built today. It's all about matching components.

Just a note: Do not confuse power peak (rpms) with power potential. The power peak rpm can be tweaked with cam and compression. The amount of power can be increased much further by making wholesale changes like intake, head and exhaust modifications.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

IMAG0178 by dspencer24, on Flickr

this is what the primer looks like a day later looks really good


IMAG0176 by dspencer24, on Flickr

This was the booth i made in my garage haha it looks tacky but it did the job

IMAG0179 by dspencer24, on Flickr

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

I really wanted to spray the color this weekend but the prep job was shitty and the metal was really cold which help cause fish eyes in the primer on the first 2 coats, so sunday we wet sanded it almost all the way down again and cleaned up using this tsp stuff and shot another 3 coats so some this week will be shooting the color and clear the primer came out really well im really happy with it

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Give me the cam specs. That fact as a stand alone is meaningless. What compression?

Too much missing information to make that statement mean anything.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

How would those heads fair with a more aggressive cam? And how much power? Wasn't 400 plus.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Search the various camaro forums...camaroz28.com is a good one for LT1 information and LS1tech has a good subforum.

CC503 and CC306 and the GM847 cams have all been used with great success on LT1 longblocks. 503 is abit tamer and usually peaks in the 5500-5800 range on stock heads. Probably the 3 most popular cams for these guys you will run into, next to the LT4 hotcam. 306 is 230/244 on a 112, 847 is 234/242 on a 112 or similar.

CC306 I think has been as high as 370's whp on stock LT1 heads. This one made 366whp by just over 6000 but power holds on alittle ways. hard to tell in the vid tho.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7oldCq96Os

This one peaked at 6100 but held power to out to 6500..dyno'd abit low for most CC306 cars but it is an automatic...
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt...ph-inside.html

EDIT: heres one I was looking for...stock heads with BRE custom grind... peaked around 6200 kinda flat til 6400 and held to 6600 pretty well
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259094

I generally dont make claims without having some evidence to back it up... I shouldnt have said peaks way beyond 6K but there are some that peak past 6K and hold that power way beyond. Some guys have claimed 6200-6300+ rpm peaks with the larger 847 cam and some custom grinds but didnt post graphs. General concensus is to shift those large cams well over 6500 tho even tho the bottom end is generally rated at 6500

cuisinartvette

Don that engine bay is going to look killer, cant wait to see it all painted, detailed and assembled.

big_G

Back in the day, cams on the solid lifter engines were actually fairly radical (for a production engine), some at or above 300* advertised duration. This was necessary due to the poor flow characteristics of the heads. Lift had to be kept low, as the ramp rates were high. Besides, after about .4 inches of valve lift, the flow flattened out. You are correct. The highest output small block had a gross rating of 375 h.p. (maybe 325 by today's net rating.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, I know you're usually good for it.

I'm just saying because one combination acts one way, it's really hard to draw a parallel to something totally different. Different intake, different compression, cam, more power, etc The intake alone is good for 50HP if you believe what you read.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

thanks ron, i had a friend come over and he thought that the primer was the paint he was suprised it was a home job. I have a couple of dog hairs lol that got in the primer but nothing to crazy and that wont come out when i wet sand.

Also i dont have an lt-1 not sure how that topic came about.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its just a comparison of what a small head can support. Since AFR heads were originally modeled after the L98/LT1 heads, it kinda implies that the 180's will be fine for your setup.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

thanks for the info.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

No, it doesn't. There's not relationship. I'm not saying they aren't going to work, my concern is it's going to cut down on useable RPM. By useable I mean where the power drops off.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

0-6200 is all that setup will have on most combos. IF the TPI is really worked and siamesed abit, you can get that range with 180 heads and still make good power.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I agree with both you guys, but if i was to do it again tho I would have for sure went with my gut and got the 195's giving up some lower end power to get some higher up power is a good trade off for tpi, and Im sure both of you can agree. Ill have so much torque down low that i will just spin my tires for awhile.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

OK, fair enough...

cuisinartvette

Youd spin them with the 195s too. Dont think youre giving up much of anything at all. Runner length determines the characteristic of the powerband to a point so if there was any difference at all Id be surprised.
Dont worry about top end, that car will run just about the same imo with either head.
if I had to do it over again Id use a smaller head myself, that "trading off bit down low" hoping for some magical top end charge...isnt gonna happen by adding 10 more cc to the head youre on the right track. Stick with it.

norcalz28

iTrader: (13)

I'll get you some numbers from my "dumptruck" engine

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

You gonna see some dyno time soon? Please keep me posted as we have extremely similar engines

norcalz28

iTrader: (13)

Yeah, shooting for sometime end of Feb, early March, trying to get some more people in so we can get a good deal.

Will

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Cool. Time slips?

Your link didn't work.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

well taxes were good to me this year i think ill be looking for a t56 by the end of feb.

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

That's what I like to hear.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

NICE!!

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Nice what about track times? you plan on taking it to the strip at all?

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

been thinking alot about the super ram? not sure why all of a suddenbut i wonder the hp difference being that I have about 4 inch siamesed

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I can tell you I had a superram with a 219/219 cam, long tube headers, and Brodix 180 heads on a stock bottom end. I really liked it.

Artisan

If I can come up with some slicks when the tracks reopen I'll have some track times with my "Dump Truck" engine. I expect to have some reasonably quick times. We will see if I am right. The power and torque are so flat and the averages are very good. If I can hook, I will be very happy I am sure of it. I think DSpencers car is going to run very well. I cannot wait to see what it does.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

i wonder if i should siamese my runners more to macth the length of the super ram runners. I need to put this thing together so i can stop second guessing everything

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

IF you just siamesed the runners to make it similar in length to the superam, you'd have basically a superram. Bases are the same, the only difference is the runner length.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

You want the runner length long enough to be able to pick up the 3rd harmonic wave for your intended rpm range. The 3rd harmonic is what TPI uses but you want to move it up in the rpm range by shortening the runners the proper amount. On the LSX motors they have a total intake track length or around 15.5". You may want something a little longer depending on where you intend to shift at.

norcalz28

iTrader: (13)

You selling your stuff Don? Saw some 180's and an XFI268 on CL

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

damn Will you dont miss a beat on craigslist, yeah since ill be out for awhile i plan on getting my camaro done right the way I want plus I cant copy your setup its not fair
So I plan on getting a custom cam from comp 228/230 on xfi lobes and afr 195's. Trying to get my hands on tuning equiptment as well.

norcalz28

iTrader: (13)

It's gonna be a beast! But I'm bummed, had wanted your car to complete the red white and blue thirdgen photo shoot I had planned for this summer. You really know how to mess things up for us dude! JK

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Maybe I still can lol, my old mans a mechanic so he can help me out if i need it. No surgery can keep me down

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

well here is some more pics for you the blue sprayed so well and here it is with out the clear coat using a camera phone its looks way better in person clear is going on soon

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52360832@N05/5443267198/http://www.flickr.com/photos/52360832@N05/5443267198/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/52360832@N05/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52360832@N05/5443259638/http://www.flickr.com/photos/52360832@N05/5443259638/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/52360832@N05/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52360832@N05/5442659705/http://www.flickr.com/photos/52360832@N05/5442659705/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/52360832@N05/, on Flickr

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

looks amazing man!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Very nice. Can't wait to see the finished product.

91 zeee

Is GM TPI really good for 6200 rpm? I thought that even in the 'modified version' it was done waaay before 6k. If not, thats good........I like to keep the factory look as much as possible.

dspencer: nice car. I am following your build. Hope to do my own this year. by the way....the color is awesome too

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

IM so happy about how the engine bay turned out A beautiful tpi sbc is gonna look so good in here. This is with three coats of clear and 3 coats of color. My buddy did a great job on clear These pictures dont do this justice. The paint I got is really good paint but cheap its an online shop its thecoatingstore.com

IMAG0232 by dspencer24, on Flickr

IMAG0231 by dspencer24, on Flickr

IMAG0228 by dspencer24, on Flickr

cuisinartvette

Looks good, cant have a clean motor and a haggard looking engine bay.
It never stops, lol

Keep going...

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

the more i do the more i find i need to do to make me happy . I cant imagine how much ill have in this car when its all said in done ugghhh

cuisinartvette

Ignore the money, youre on the journey end now its exhau$ting.

Once its together and running you wont regret one penny trust me.
After having one apart for 10 yrs and wondering the same thing, yes its worth it if youre happy when you look at/drive it.
Only go around once.