ROCmy86

I have an 86 iroc and never dealt with a vapor canister before. I have a few questions i hope someone can answer for me.

1. what is it main purpose?

2. Does it have an adverse affect on performance?

3. Can you remove it?

4. If you can remove it how?

5. are there any potential risks in removing it?

Apeiron

To collect vapours.

No

Yes, if you don't care about emissions legality.

Disconnect it, remote it, plug vacuum lines, put a filter on the tank line.

Your car may stink like gasoline.

ROCmy86

ok so it doesnt hurt the vehicle in any way it sound like im better off just leaving it in there then thanks for the help

Edwardgp

You probably want to leave it on but I don't see why a guy couldn't move it.

T/Aperformance

Well yes there is some very big risk if you remove it.
One you will over heat your fuel pump if its an electric in tank pump.
If you doen't properly vent your tank you'll produce to much vapor and pressure in your tank. And it could explode That is why it designed the way it is.
The charcoal cannister uses engine vacuum to releave vapor pressure threw the purge valve. The system always keeps some pressure in the system. And lets not forget its not legal.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

How did you come up with that brilliant theory ?
pump is cooled by fuel passing through it

He was told to put a open tank vent in , just like billions of pre -emmission car since the dawn of time


The canister purge (CCV ) is solely on the car for emission control purposes; the factory didn't go spending extra $$$ installing CCV just to vent the tank

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

My car has been void of the vapor canister for 10+ years now. My "vent" consists of a small piece of duct tape over the line. Never had a single issue with the engine bay smelling of gas.

battman

iTrader: (2)

Ive been running my GTA for 5 years with out the canister, only difference is occasionally you can smell a hint of gas fumes from under the hood after driving in hot weather.

T/Aperformance

T/Aperformance:
And yes you are right the CCV is for emission control. But part of emission control is to eliminate fuel vapors going into the air. THe charcoal canister and purge valve is to vent fuel vapors from the tank. it is its job. What is it other job?

T/Aperformance

Do you think having the smell of fuel under your hood is a good idea. Just think about all the heat and electic that is going on it only take a small spark to set of those fuel vapors.
Now I'm not here to argue with anyone here. I just believe this practice is a very bad and dangerous idea to do or to tell someone that its OK to do or make someone think it is a safe thing to do.
If its how your running that is your choice. Just remeber your not just putting your life in danger, but also anyone around your car, or on the road.

And lets not forget that it is not legal to do

battman

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=T/Aperformance;5248878]Do you think having the smell of fuel under your hood is a good idea.[/QUOTE

Doesn't bother me, a carburated vehicle has way more fumes under the hood than my car..

[QUOTE=Just think about all the heat and electic that is going on it only take a small spark to set of those fuel vapors.
Now I'm not here to argue with anyone here. I just believe this practice is a very bad and dangerous idea to do or to tell someone that its OK to do or make someone think it is a safe thing to do.
If its how your running that is your choice. Just remeber your not just putting your life in danger, but also anyone around your car, or on the road.

And lets not forget that it is not legal to do[/QUOTE

I don't recall anyone telling the OP he has to remove his, people have simply stated their experiences running without it... Is it dangerous? No.. are you endangering others around you? No.. Is it illegal? in some states.

Apeiron

Back in the dark ages before emissions control there used to be a great big bowl of liquid gasoline under the hood sitting on top of the engine and it didn't blow up.

Apeiron

All states

ROCmy86

wow this has gotten a ton of feed back. thanks to everyone who posted but im still stuck deciding if i want to remove it. im alittle cautious of the fuel vapor my luck something will blow up, and the other thing im cautious of is i dont know which vacuum lines can be removed and how to actually remove the canister do i have to reroute vac lines or what cause this weekend i really wanna try to clean up the engine bay alittle an vac lines i hate especially when theyre everywhere!!! If im not gunna dye or cause harm to the car id like to remove the canister because id like to show the car when its done and that thing looks like crap under the hood with the octopus of lines all around it. if anyone can tell me what exactly i have to do to remove it or post pics of their removal that would be awesome

T/Aperformance

You could always hide the cannister. You could drop it to under the pannel where it mounted at this pressent time. A few people here have done this..
You could hide your vacuum lines through your wirre loom covers and over to the charcoal cannister.
There is a thread some where on here that shows where all your vacuum lines go.
If you are really intent on removing your charcoal cannister I would run a purge valve between the vapor recovery line and the TB. This way you dont have the fuel vapors to worry about.

If it was my car I'd just hide the charcoal cannister like a few on this site have done. Maybe you could look that up, and see maybe if thats what you'd like to do.

Apeiron

No, that'll put the tank under vacuum. If you're going to remove the canister, leave the tank vented.

battman

iTrader: (2)

Yea, I should have worded that differently.. I know technically its illegal in all states but its only enforced in states with emission inspections.

T/Aperformance

No, I'm sory but since the purge valve works off vacuum and only closes not open on a vacuum it would not put your tank under vacuum. If that where so then your tank would always be under vacuum in its original state.
The way the vapor recovery sytem works is: it allows the vapors from your fuel tank to be routed up to the fuel cannister, the cannister is there to collect fuel vapors and filter any condensed vapors (Vapors terned back into liquid) Then the purge valve allows the the vapors to enter into the engine to be burned. But it doesn't allow the vapors to enter the TB all the time, only at certain non-vacuum opperations.

Which is why when a purge valve goes bad it goes bad in an open state. And you have problems like what would seem to be vapor lock, or a fuel pump going bad, You also have issues like fuel pump wine, hesitations, strong fuel oders, hesitations and eradict idealing, And when its warm out it the problems become worse.

I do agree with you to a point , And that is if you do, do this you should vent the tank, But then again the tank needs some pressure in it to help the fuel pump. that is how the system is desined to work.
I'm just triing to help another member make a smart and safe desision on what to do, Which I think all members here should do.
I personly think if this person is wanting to do something like this to clean up the engine bay as we have found to be the point we should then help do that. And do it in a safe and legal manor. And not how others have done it which I think is really a hack job. And not something they should encorage others to do.

battman

iTrader: (2)

Dude you obviously do not know how the system works by your post. The purge valve is electrically operated solenoid, not vacuum operated.. and the canister does not convert the fumes back into a liquid???? The fumes are accumulated in the canister and purged by a solenoid back into the intake tract..

http://www.diycardoctor.com/automotive_evap_system.htm

rob2000gt

iTrader: (1)

Since people have alot of info about this system. If i leave my cap tight my fuel tank creates so much pressure the tank starts leaking from the topI have all my stuff for the canister but it doest vent at all. as long as I leave my gas cap loose my car wont leak or build pressure. I dont have any vaccum leaks. I want this fixed really badly I have replaced my vent valves with working ones please help. I dont know much about emissions but I know I should have this working properly.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Your vent lines from tank to the canister may be blocked ( not uncommon ) or the purge solenoid may be jammed in the closed position preventing pressure from escaping

rob2000gt

iTrader: (1)

I have tested the line going to the tank I blew in the line and had a friend loosen the cap and it released the pressure

rob2000gt

iTrader: (1)

Is there a test procedure to make sure Im get the right power to the solenoid or testing the solenoid.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Purge solenoid should have power anytime key is on and is controlled by going to ground at the ECM

IIRC
Solenoid should be open ( is closed by the ECM until canister is purged ) when power off
so you should be able to blow through it ; with power off

shortyskater

I think he confused the emissions system with the A/C system

Apeiron

It sounded to me like you wanted to remove the canister and connect the vapor line directly to the purge valve. That would have put vacuum on the tank.

From your description of the valve operation, I think maybe you have a purge valve confused with a tank pressure control valve.

The purge valve control port is connected to a ported vacuum source, and is open under vacuum, to burn vapors during part-throttle operation. (The TVS is inline with the control port to inhibit purging on a cold engine, but that doesn't matter). Under non-vacuum conditions, there is no purging. There purge valve doesn't affect venting of the tank at all, only evacuation of the canister.

In applications where canister purging was controlled by the ECM the purge valve is replaced by a solenoid, but sometimes there would be stranger things like a constant low-level purge into a timed vacuum port which would be supplemented by a high-level purge into the PCV port through the purge solenoid.

Venting of the tank is through the tank pressure control valve. The control port is connected to manifold vacuum and when there is no vacuum the valve is closed and the tank vents through a tiny orifice. The idea is that most of the vapors are retained within the tank instead of the canister, but pressure is still relieved. When the engine is running and there is vacuum, the valve opens and bypasses the orifice so the tank will vent freely. Neither condition has any effect on purging.

The tank pressure control valve wasn't used in all years and applications, sometimes there was just a restriction in the vapor line near the tank, or the valve was incorporated into the pickup and would vent at a certain overpressure.

Apeiron

Not all purge valves are solenoid operated. Some are vacuum, especially on cars which never came with computers to control a solenoid. Some canister designs do have a sump at the bottom to trap liquid fuel that may condense out or have been aspirated so that it doesn't saturate the carbon bed.

T/Aperformance

First using the term DUDE is an insult. learn what your saying . And If you could read I didn't say that cannister converts vapors back into fuel. It states that its there to hold vapors and any vapors that turn back into fuel. And by the way that is what happens thats why its there.
Also in 1987 there were two modles of charcoal cannister one the purge valve is electronicly operated and both use vacuum. Before you reply and insult someone DUDE learn to read whats written and know what your talking about.

johnf123

can i just stick a $2 breather cap on my gas tank line?

nathan_dc2

I have a question about the tank needing pressure to help the fuel pump, how does this theory work? The fuel pick up is near the bottom of your tank and the fuel pump is s simple positive displacement pump, where in this setup would you need fuel vapor pressure to help the pump. The pump will only pump what it can no matter how much you pressurize the tank, it would flow the same rate in a bucket of fuel as it will in the tank. Everyone on this post is doing their best to help but I'm not sure if all the information being shared is accurate or even helpful in some cases.

The best advice anyone can give is that by eliminating factory options and engine controls you run the risk of altering the engines performance or personal or property damage. But in the case of emissions controls do your research and you will be fine, many hot rodders use the TPI setup without any emissions controls and they are running great and look just as good.

Blade09

That's what I'm wondering... I hate the canister because it just sits so awkwardly in the engine bay. I feel confident that it won't hurt much to remove it but I want to make sure I remove it properly.

Does the vent need to be anything special or located anywhere specific?

Thanks,
Dan

Apeiron

Wherever you don't care that it smells like gas fumes. A fuel filter makes a decent vent filter.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I like the idea of relocating it and hiding all the awkwardly placed lines.. I relocated my battery to the rear and would like to keep this part behind the driver's headlight clean too, plus make the engine bay look more attractive. I am all for function though, removing it would remove a feature (that is potentially a safety feature) that would be foolish IMO. I will look into other threads on how some people have relocated this.

I know LS1 tanks keep this located near the fuel tank in the back of the car, but I'm not sure if this would be possible with this canister.

87SLEEPER

So I am hooking all the vac hoses to my HSR and stock TB. I have done the coolant bypass and added a breather to the the air line of my passenger valve cover. I retained my stock pcv valve and tapped that under the plennum base with a 3/8 line. Rather than dink around with the foolish design of running the canister "big" line under the TB then loop back and have it interfere with everything else can I just tee it w/ my pcv line? What about the 1/8 " line that runs to the ???. does it connect to the tiny barb under the TB? Are all lines from the canister treated as "under vacuum?

Thanks

tparrants

It is designed as another option to just venting gas fumes into atmo. and the charcoal canister just stores those fumes until the next time the car starts and then it opens a purge valve and dump those fumes into the air intake to be burned and turned into CO2 and H2O, this emissions system did not change the fundamental design of the fuel system this was just a "patch" to get the car to pass emissions.

Yes in some cases it can cause performance issues if it remains open during operating times the vacuum off the intake will suck more fumes in during driving with will cause the computer to think the engine is running rich which will in-turn cause the computer to make the engine run lean. These systems are also known to be very hard to pin point as the problem because the symptoms that these systems cause tend to look like other cause for example running the engine lean will cause you too think something like your o2 sensors are bad or your injectors.

Yes you can remove it in face on some cars this system doesn't even use a charcoal canister it just routs the vapors into the crank case and then uses the PCV system to burn them from there.

The how has already been pretty well described

Yes there are risks to doing this but common since will be your best bet on safety and this system has nothing to do with your fuel delivery system. this system doesn't not put pressure at all in the fuel tank because if you have pressure pushing on the input side of the pump it will damage the pump also if you got pressure and then the pump adding pressure that will cause your engine to run rich, if you really want a good 100% description i suggest getting an all data account for your car it is like 25 bucks a year and its the same kinda program that alot of shops use and it will give you all techinal info for any system on your car as well as give your very good descriptions on how systems work