Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Just a WAG, but with that cam, and Iron heads, I would say 9.5:1 is about the highest you would want to go on pump gas.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

I used an .018 shim head gasket with 65cc heads with 4 valve relief and no pinging. The compression was about 10.7 to 1 with iron heads. It will work if you tune it right.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Cam specs?

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

TPIS ZZ9

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

I'm assuming on 93 octane correct? What was your max timing?

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

We only have 91 octane here and timing at 30*

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It costs more power to turn back the timing than it does to turn down the compression. Problem is sacrificing quench for compression ratio doesnt get you very far when it comes to detonation resistance. So it's a fine line.

Put static compression in a decent range, and your camshaft choice will make it work. I would try to stay below 10.0:1... below 9.5:1 if possible, but I've known several guys making 10.2-10.5:1 work. IF you end up on the 10+ side of things make sure you get a larger cam and try to keep the DCR down to around 8.0-8.2... I dont know this for a fact... but it's just what I've come across via osmosis. I like safe numbers and I like to have rules of thumb for my own projects. But pay attention to the other guys that have pushed the limits.

I'm around 9.8:1 right now, with too small of a cam, but if you're between 9.5-10.5, even with iron heads, if you're careful you can make it work with a combination of camshaft and quench.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Well did a bit of calculating with some SCR and DCR calculators, and at 8 cc valve reliefs, 64 cc chambers, typical 4 x 3.48 bore x stroke, .040 quench, I'm at about 9.90:1 SCR. Putting the SCR and cam values into the calculator gave me 8.07:1 DCR, a safe level for 93 octane, or even 91. So I suppose now I have to wait and see what my deck clearance is once the bottom end is back together to decide the head gasket thickness. Either way I should be able to manage a .040 quench, by making up the difference in the deck with gasket thickness.

Here are the calculators I used:
SCR: http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php
DCR: http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php

In other news, ordered my bottom end gasket set tonight, hopefully here by the weekend. Still need to order valves, locks, seals, and retainers for the heads. What would you guys suggest? 2.08 or 2.055 intake valves? Same price.

As for intake gaskets, the Dart page on these heads suggests FelPro 1205, but would it hurt to go to a 1206? I can't see a reason why it would...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"As for intake gaskets, the Dart page on these heads suggests FelPro 1205, but would it hurt to go to a 1206? I can't see a reason why it would..."

One very good reason. It is unlikely that you intake manifold would seal up with a Felpro 1206. No reason to go that big anyways. Stick with the 1205. As to the intake valves see what valve seats are in the head and buy the approiate intake valve.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

I'm not sure what I'm really looking for, but here's the page with the head specs:

http://www.dartheads.com/products/ai...itfile_id/113/

And the two valves I'm looking to go with:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/man-11568-8
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/man-11808-8

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The spec sheet on the heads says it comes with 2.02" valves and that is most likely the valve seat that is in the heads. So if you want to go with the larger valves you will have to replace the seats and do a bowl blend for the new larger valve seat. I really don't know how much you will gain with the larger valves.

Also the valves you show are not backcut on the stem above the valve itself. Nowadays most are using the backcut to help increase flow and cut down on the weight of the valve.

By the way what bore are you going to be using? With a 4" bore you might not want to go over a 2.055" intake valve. Also as said above strive for a .040" quench or squish. Maybe 9.75:1 compression.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

That 9.8 and 8.07 are going to be the theoretical highest compression scenarios... I think its sounding pretty good right now. If you can manage a tight quench and keep the compression ratio in check that thing is going to be a really, really nice combo.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Go with whatever valves fit those heads. The cost to mod them may be more then its worth IMO.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Another package from Summit last night, my bottom end gaskets and seals, ARP head bolts, and a flip cover switch for my line lock. Ready to reassemble the bottom end except dad needs to fix the air compressor lol. After that, next step is measuring deck clearance, ordering head gaskets, and assembling the heads when they get here.

Glad to see you all made it through the end of the world

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Whered you get the line lock? Thats something ive been dragging my feet about personally. Its just a sileniod installed into the front brake lines with a monentary switch right?

Yes we survived another :end of the world:

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

I ordered mine from Summit, their brand as it was cheapest. Just the solenoid, they have a kit for it though. I prefer the flip down switch covers, so I just got one of them separate. I think it's just wired to an always on 12v power source.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yea, constant 12 Vdc wired through a monetary switch and a ground on the other wire. When the solenoid is energized it will hold the line pressure. Energize=closed

I've got a 12 vdc but it's for refrigerant....lol, I wounded if it work with brake line. I just need to go ahead and order one off eBay ASAP for the line lock.

Andrew do you remember the rules for having line locks in sportsman class??? IIRC they say only one tire can be locked in that class....what a joke!

How's the car doing any more progress before the holidays???

project89

iTrader: (1)

the linelock will help u launch the car , when ur doing ur burnout u use the linelock and the back brakes wont apply, this way when u stage the car they are nice and cool and will hold the back tires alot better. this will alow u to stall up higher and build alot of boost on the line

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

I don't recall any rules for line locks, but I could be wrong. Don't think it really matters since it's not meant for the starting line. Although, I heard of some people using it on all 4 brakes and using it to leave off the "button" in Sportsman, but it's supposebly inconsistent, since line pressure could vary from pass to pass.

Was doing a bit of cleanup today, although I can't do the block without an air compressor. Cleaned up crank bearings, aswell as the rod and cap bearings. Decided to just get new ones. I could probably run these ones, but they're starting to show traces of copper. I'd rather play it safe lol.

Oil pan and timing chain cover are sparkly clean again, and all traces of leftover gasket material are scraped off the block. REALLY need the air compressor fixed before I can make much more progress. That's all for now though.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I just remember nate saying that only one tire can be locked. Although no one uses' just one in sportsman im sure...lol

Ive hear of using 4 tires locked, but I dont see it any easier on the launch except now you would have to time down the button to your gas peddle. If was me the first time out id probly forget to let off the button and blow through my brakes...lmao

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Also andrew you may want to check that crank with a mic. Just to see what the clearences are for the new bearings. Sometimes a little wear on those bearings is a good thing(for added clearence for oil) other times if its too much and the bearnings are that bad then its time for new bearnings. But rather to make sure the crank is still in acceptable tolerences now while you have it apart.

Look up what the specs are on that crank. Then mic it. See how far off you are as I know it will be a little off, but shouldnt be too much if that engine isnt that old(miles)

Howd those cam bearings look in that block?? Specifically the top and bottom of the first one(nearest to the timing chain set)

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Cam bearings look beautiful, but rod and main bearings are showing copper on some of them. A few have decent sized patches, so I may aswell just replace them all to be safe.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Just mic out the crank. No sence in not doing that. Only takes a few minuets. I mic'ed out about all of my stuff when it was apart just to see where it was all at. And if it was in acceptable tolerences.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Since progress with the motor has been slowed for at least the next week or so due to waiting on the air compressor and bearings, going to plan my next move.

Tranny and rear are somewhat taken care of as far as being torn down and rebuilt, although all the details aren't quite worked out yet. That leaves me with all the other small details with the rest of the car. I plan on installing my linelock tomorrow before I head over for Christmas with my family. Also plan on wiring a manual fan switch fairly soon aswell. Those I can do without the car being in the garage. Also considering going to an electric water pump if I get lucky with the price. After that it's swapping in my MSD coil, cap, and rotor, which isn't much of a task at all. Then it's on to working the exhaust and building my own subframe connectors. I think for now I'm just going to dump the exhaust before the axle, with or without a bullet or spiral muffler, maybe a glasspack. Sound is not really an issue, haven't had any problems yet, but it would be nice to have an "exhaust system" on the car if I end up in a tight spot. Perhaps something that isn't extreme until I really get on the throttle. In the end, performance is the top priority.

As for the subframe connectors, I'll do something similar to this:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...al-design.html

Thoughts on thickness and size? I may go with 14 gauge like he did for weight savings, but I'd like it to be pretty dang stiff. Probably a similar size too, he seems to have decent success with them.

Since I'm running a TH350, I'll have to fab up a torque arm mount on the crossmember. Going to run the stock torque arm though. I'm planning on fabricating something similar to this:
http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...roducts_id=134

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much fabrication I can do before the engine is in the car. Reason being, the subframe connecters have to clear the y-pipe for now. I may swap to longtubes after this year, but who knows.

I suppose right now I'm at that point where I'm itching to make huge progress, but I can't lol. I'm sure some of you know what that's like. Hopefully before too long I'll be so busy, April will come up fast.

Hopefully before too long it's less and more lol.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Merry Christmas!

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Car finally made it into the garage on Christmas day. Not the garage it was supposed to be in, but I'm not complaining

Put in quite a bit of work after I got home. Hood off, a lot of the excess engine bay stuff unhooked and moved off to the side, fuel rails off. Draining the coolant tomorrow, then pulling the intake. I'd really like to clean up this spaghetti factory in the engine bay though. All these wires...there's gotta be a cleaner way to run them. Got an update on the heads, they should be shipped out in the next few days. My deck bridge will be here tomorrow, so I can measure the deck clearance on the new block. Unfortunately, it may have to see the machine shop. Early measurements show at least .030 in the hole. Not good for hitting that quench range.

Anyway, PICS!


Mock up of line lock switch. Decided I will be running a fan switch right next to it. Notice the notch I had to cut out of the top


After taking the hood off.


Done for the night.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Why did you take off the hood?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

If Im doing something that involved I like to remove the hood too. It's just 4 bolts and makes it a LOT easier to work on stuff, especially towards the back of the engine bay.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Lighting was a huge factor, the hood just made a shadow from all of our overhead lights. That and it'll be easier to move around, not worrying about hitting my head on it. Should make pulling the motor easier I would imagine.

87SLEEPER

First thing I did too. I tend to get right on top of the engine when I'm working. Spent days there .

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Not really. I pull my engine without taking off the hood nor fans.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Well, bad news. Block needs to be decked. Around the edges of the piston, it measures .038" down. At the center of the piston, it measures .060" down. Question for you guys that know your quench: Is this normal, and do I just have the machine shop deck it to .000" at the edge of the piston? Another setback

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Use the edges of your pistons. If .038" down have them take .026" off the block and that will leave the pistons down .012". Then use the GM .028" head gasket and that will leave your quench/squish at .040"

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Would have been easier to leave the brackets on for future reference.... Believe me Ive taken mine off at least 10 times now. But just because its so much easier to take it off and have the room to work.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Yeah I thought about that Mark, but then I'm sure I'd be hitting them every time I walk by them LOL. Thanks Allen, that's the info I was looking for. Drained the coolant, pulled some more things off, and getting ready to pull the intake. Mark, you know of any good machine shops around our area? I'm gonna ask all the guys we race with and see what they recommend.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I looked at a few, but once i saw the prices i sorta just said..nevermind...lol So since those days when I wanted to jack the static comp ratio(pre turbo), I sorta forgot which places i looked at.

Ask nate or andy.

Sorry I cant help anymore.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

That's alright Mark. I asked Andy, and he gave me a few to choose from. I might go to one up in Huron, as I can get a deal there. You remember Boyer with those twin Thunderbirds? He works in a machine shop up there, said he could help me out.

A bit more progress tonight, getting the 305 tore down. Intake, water pump, alternator are all pulled. Water pump and alternator were a bit stubborn lol. Need a new Torx T40 bit before I can go any further with the accessories, my bit is stripped out (go figure). GM for using Torx. Absolutely genius idea...[/rant]. Also got my distributor freshened up

I think I might look to start building my subframe connectors this weekend, as I can't do much more at the moment. Have to wait until the heads get here to send them and the block to the machine shop, and tranny/rear are still TBD. No sense pulling the 305 with nowhere to put it, may aswell leave it in the car.

Anyone have any input on re-routing the wires in the engine bay? It's much too messy for my liking at the moment.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Here's what I meant. When I'm doing it by myself and no one else is around, this is the best way to go.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...886-post1.html

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Update: More of the engine bay cleaned up and accessories pulled. Also started measuring out length for how much steel I'll need for the subframe connectors. Need a new T40 bit before I can pull the PS/Alternator and AC brackets. Also got the radiator and fans pulled. Pulled back the wiring harness from the front (for the most part), and started planning how I'm going to rewire it. Most of it will be the same, just neat and out of sight.


I'm planning on doing something like the blue design. I can't add long angled bars on the inside because of ground clearance though. The floor pan sits down I would say slightly higher than the lowest point of the car, and adding anything there is going to kill ground clearance. Driver side is going to be cake. Passenger side on the other hand, I've got to figure out what to do about the exhaust. Things to take into consideration: total exhaust length after the y-pipe, length of exhaust from wideband to dump point, the dump point itself, and if I'm going to run a muffler or not. I'll also have to take into consideration if I go to longtubes next year.


Engine bay as of tonight. Not really much else I can do with it until the engine is out, and I'm waiting for the new engine to be ready before I pull the old. There's certainly not enough room for two engines in the garage lol. I think it'll be at least two weeks (roughly), before I get the block back and ready to go. I'm waiting for the heads to get here, and sending them both out at the same time to be checked out and machined. I think I'll try to fab up the subframe connectors in that time. Exhaust on the car is a MUST when I do these though, otherwise I'm sure to run into fitment issues.

Z28NZ

Something for you to digest re comp ratios, my 355 is zero decked with flat top pistons with 4 valve relliefs and iron vortec heads machined off .025 to give 60cc chambers and I run a Felpro .039 compressed head gasket and 95 0ctane and 10 degrees of advance. I know my CR is getting up there but I have no issue with detonation etc. Cam is similar to yours being a XE268h-14 and it pulls hard all the way to 6500 before shifting and I just love the way it revs so freely. Note, no smog gear, cat etc, 24lb bosch 3's, stock runners and plenum and throttle body and maf tune corvette chip, 3817 vortec intake base port matched and polished. My two cents, cheers

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Updates?

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Not much, just minor things. Tranny is drained, started unbolting it. Unhooked and cleaned up a LOT of wiring. Only area with wires is the driver side front corner, where the wiring harness is for the headlights and all that, and the passenger side in the AC/Heater box area. Biggest PITA of this project so far has been unbolting the brake booster. Added to the list of things I hate with a passion: Anything that requires a U-joint to get to.

Probably won't be much as far as updates go until the block and heads are back. Then I can get huge progress done quick. With these more efficient heads, I'm really going to focus on the intake. That will easily be the restriction on this motor. Mark, any plans on coming back to town soon? I can grab those bits off you

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Ill be back in town on sunday morning ish to grab the new rear end from my moms garage. Ill hopefully be then selling my old one to a guy from akron the same day.

If your going to be grinding alluminum these bits wont work well. There for iron meterials. But ill have the valve spring removal tool for ya also. Just let me know.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

I've read people seem to do alright with them on aluminum if they use WD40 with it. I guess a small update though, heads are on their way. Should get a tracking number tonight. Once those are here, they're leaving along with the block to the machine shop. Should find out tomorrow night the situation on the tranny. Once things get rolling again, it should be smooth sailing to the end of the build. Keyword there being "should."

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

What heads did you end up going with?

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Dart 200cc Iron Eagle Platinum heads.

http://www.dartheads.com/products/ai...itfile_id/113/
That's the spec sheet for them.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Dont always believe what someone "says" on here. I ruined one $20 bit before because of what you speak of. Aluminum is not for non ferrious carbide bits no matter how much wd you put on it.

Look up ferrious or non ferrious metals. My carbine bits are for iron (ferrious) only. Aluminum will just load them up bud. Theres no sence in using them. To be honest Ive got about 40 bucks wraped up into these bit and dont want to get them loaded up with non-ferrious metal.

Either buy bits for the job, or use sand wheels and stones. Either way get the right tools for the job. It will be much easier that way.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Heads are here!


Getting a coat of black paint, I think the orange is a bit too flashy.



Decided to pull the exhaust. Figured I could at least do the driver side SFC without the exhaust on, and it makes it that much easier to pull the motor out faster. Passenger side header comes out a lot easier without the AC bracket on. Still a PITA with the AC/Heater box right there though. Got the wiring harness completely pulled back to the passenger side fender. The engine bay looks so much better without all those wires, makes me tempted to go carb I was considering repainting the engine bay, but I think I'm going to skip that. Using a scotch brite works pretty well on it.


Holy wiring harness batman!

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

half of those wires are emmisions. Toss them IMO cleans up the bay much better.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

I thought I saw a guide here about which wires to remove and stuff, but I can't seem to find it.

Obviously, if iyou remove the egr, smog pump, you can remove the wiring for them, but what else can you really remove?