aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Swapping from a V6 to a V8 in my 83 Firebird and, of course, it has the manual clutch.

Looking at bell housings and I need to choose either the earlier mechanical style or the later hydraulic style.

Is there any reason to not just stay with what I have? Rather not have more fluids and such to deal with, plus it seems easier to stay with the style I have!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I can think of several:

1. Laziness
2. Cheeeeepeness
3. Don't know that something DECENT is available to replace it
4. Stubbornness
5. Laziness
6. Lack of willingness to put forth minimal effort
7. Procrastination
8. Have to drive the car to work in the morning; the other will just have to wait until 5:00
9. Laziness
10. Don't know any better
11. Lack of motivation

Might be a few others, but I just can't think of em right now.

The VERY FIRST MOD I did to my 83, was to get rid of the crappy stock shifter, that felt like there was a rubber band buried in a bowl of oatmeal somewhere connecting my hand and the transmission. I decided I HAD TO do something when I skinned my knuckles on the radio shifting to 3rd while whupping a Mustang.

The VERY NEXT THING I did, was to get rid of that stooopid-azzzz Stone Age linkage clutch, and swap in the hydraulics out of a wrecked 84 in the boneyard. That was THE FIRST such car I had seen (and BOY, was it ever WRECKED... I tried not to dwell too much on the stains around the driver's seat) being as how it was such a new car. My little bro got the 3.73 rear for his 84 LG4 car.

Both of those things would have been in around late 85 or early 86.

Wish I'd have done BOTH of em THE INSTANT I bought the car.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Dunno, clutch seems fine to me, and it's the first manual one I've driven besides my turbo van!

The bellhousing isn't hard to find, in fact, I have one bookmarked.

Clutch itself is the same.

Already have a Core shifter with a Hurst rod on it so that's taken care of.

Besides the initial adjustments I just don't see a downside.

Maybe it's a personal choice then?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Ummmmmm....

No.

Maybe it's because part of the effort that SHOULD BE going into operating the clutch, INSTEAD, goes into moving the engine/trans forward in the "frame". (Walk out to your car RIGHT NOW with your assistant POS 6-cyl and all, open the hood, stand next to the car, watch while your assistant depresses the pedal)

Maybe it's because of all the friction and binding in the linkage. (that nice little "hitch" the pedal has about 2/3 - 3/4 of the way up as you try to take off SMOOTHLY from a stop... doesn't get any better with age)

Maybe it's because the linkage BREAKS OFF.

Maybe it's because THEN, you can't buy a new linkage ANY MORE.

Maybe it's because the hydraulic system is self-adjusting, like disc brakes; but the Stone Age linkage system requires frequent manual intervention, like Stone Age drum brakes.

Maybe there's other reasons but those are enough for the moment. For an intelligent logical thinking open-minded person anyway, who hasn't already decided what he wants the answer to be and is looking for sideline cheerleaders instead of locker-room coaches.

mike_c

iTrader: (13)

I think the answer is pretty clear here. Hydraulic clutches are miles better than manual clutches for all the above reasons. Converting it is certainly cheap and easy enough to do.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

The F-body 82-83 linkage has goofier bends in it than anything else. So it's even more susceptible to the usual breaks and need for re-welding than the other mech. linkage in other vintage cars.

Do what I did. Run both. Spend money idealizing the mechanical with rod-end linkage. Adjust it. Be determined. Then swap it for the hydraulic. Then make your decision as to which one you like better.

One thing I consider when modding a car is how serviceable the parts are. Am I really going to benefit having a billet chrome polished yippee kayyay alternator? Nope. So I run a later-model one that works and can be found in BFE southwest desert town parts stores if I take a drive.

Along those thoughts of serviceability, it is easier to find the hydro parts for an 84-97 F-body than it is the 82-83 stuff, period. (the 93-97 hydraulics aren't quite exactly right but if you had to . . .) 84-92 bellhousing? Easier to find used than an 83. The only serviceable advantage to the mechanical is the ballstud was used in so many other vehicles it may be easier to find. Why is the 84-92 ballstud harder to find since it's newer? Because it wears out less due to being at a more centrally located fulcrum point in the fork. Advantage: hydraulic.

P.S. there's no "hitch" in linkage that's not worn or otherwise broken. It just has so many wear points that you won't get 50,000 miles from it without developing a new problem / "hitch."

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Hydraulic TOB.

-- Joe

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Wow, such hatred for a design that was fine for decades!

I don't know about you guys but...

Adjusting the clutch isn't hard and takes two minutes

I can shift this car so damn smooth you'd think it was a CVT

There are no notchy or otherwise obvious spots in my pedal's travel

My car has 102hp.

Maybe that last one has something to do with it? hahaha

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've owned 60s and 70s cars with linkage. Other than the wearing, and constant adjustment the thing I dislike the most is that the clutch isn't the same amount of pressure throughout the stroke. It's very hard up top, but then when you get closer to the floor suddenly it's weak.

It's like manual steering, drum brakes, points, crank start, etc. Sure it worked, but why not treat yourself to better technology if available?

-- Joe

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Definitely won't fight newer tech if it's better... to a point. No ABS/drive by wire for me! Prefer no power options either... but that's due to me not wanting to fix everything and trace wires for days

Also because I could get a cheap bell housing and just use what I have. Believe I need pedals and a bunch of other stuff to convert?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I don't remember, but I'd think the pedals are the same.

On my car I ran a stock master, braided hose, and hydralic TOB. Worked mint.

I put a TH350 in the car last month to be more consistent at the track.

-- Joe

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Pedals are not the same unfortunately. But that's easy; it's like 4 nuts in the interior and it's done. Hardly even have to get your hands dirty.

I guess that's why we don't all spend all winter cutting down trees with our teeth to heat our caves, throwing things at our food as it runs by to make it slow down enough for us to grab a bite, etc. There's a time and a place for the "tried and true"; don't get me wrong; but I'm sure ANYBODY that's posting on the Internet would for example consider using carrier pigeons to broadcast a request for help as a bit ... troublesome. There are fewer things that are a more prominent mark of a fool, than unwillingness to consider change. (one of those being, unwillingness to look at what has "always worked", and figure out why it worked, as well as how it could be made to work better)

IMO that Stone Age mechanical linkage, which I had already HATED for DECADES before I swapped mine over, is in the class of things with caves, hunter-gatherer lifestyles, and carrier pigeons.

eseibel67

Do you mean that the slave/fork/bearing on T5 can be refitted with an integrated hydraulic TOB? Similar to the setup on an LS1/T56? If yes, what does the bearing push against? There must be a sleeve.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yes, I ran one for a while.

It pushes against the bearing retainer.

Howe 82876.

-- Joe

black83camaro

Im doing the same type of swap into my 83 Sport coupe. I found a guy selling a 83 v8 bell housing cheap so instead of getting the whole assembly im going to just get the bell housing. Maybe ill swap out the mechanical linkage for a hydraulic one down the road when I have funds to support it. My advice would be to get a bell housing for it IF you can get it cheap. Personally I do not mind adjusting my clutch linkage. I used to drive a 64 Buick and it was by no means tedious to adjust. If you can not find the Bell housing cheap then I would recommend just going to a junkyard and pulling everything you need. Ill be doing my swap this summer so keep me informed, best of luck!

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

THANK YOU! Finally someone else that gets it haha.

I'll most likely do the changeover when I swap the V8 in. No sense in buying two bell housings!

black83camaro

Ill probably be going the Mechanical route, Ill let you know how it works out. besides crawling under your car every once and awhile is good to see what you have to do for preventative maintenance.

For your case if you wanna go the hydraulic route I would recommend hitting some junkyards, they are the cheapest way to go. Since your in my area I would recommend going to Hollands Used Auto Parts in Billerica, I was there the other weekend when I found a couple scores, they have 5 Third Gens there and you should be able to get an entire setup for cheap. When you go to pay though... go to the older guy when you walk in ALL THE WAY IN BACK. Hes the one who gives you the deals.

For now this is the cheapest way for me to do my swap. Im trying to do this swap as cheap as I can, trying to prove than anyone can do a v6 to v8 swap and have it run nice for less than a grand. So far im doing pretty good, I got an entire exhaust system, cooling fans, radiator, radiator shroud, and a Edelbrock performer intake for 150$.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Adjusting the clutch isn't the feature of the old Stone Age system that's bad. If that was its only down side, it would be much less intolerable.

The problem is its general Stone Age - ness.

Certainly a steep goal.

Why sure, anybody can do that anywhere anytime, looks like you've "proved" your point. Anybody can do that. Only surprise is, that everybody doesn't. Not sure why.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Ebay, craigslist, and forums. I never pay retail for anything. Budget builds for life!

black83camaro

Yup! going to college taking 21 credits a semester, in school all year except for summer. Working 60 hours a week to pay for school, with a little something on the side for my Camaro! I swear working on it is the only thing that keeps me from going insane with school.

Sofakingdom, you should follow my build im going to make an attempt to do the swap as cheap as I can. Im sure you have seen a lot of people in my shoes saying they are going to do the swap really cheap and end up spending more than they want. Yes this in most cases is true, but since im on such a tight budget I really can afford to pay for new parts. Granted I will be buying some parts new, clutch and flywheel and parts like that that SHOULD be new in a swap. I can go to junkyards and find parts for cheap and ill do the swap once I get everything I need. No need to bash and put me down before you even give me a shot...

Anyways I would go hydraulic if you can afford it. In most cases it would be cheaper than mechanical, but seeing how my linkage is in good condition and I found a bell housing for cheap I might as well keep it mechanical for now.

Heres my question, could a v6 t5 starter from 83 go onto the 350 with a t5? Ill be running the mechanical linkage (dont think that even matters) and will be running the required 153 tooth flywheel. Just wondering if it bolt up the same. Im pretty sure it does not but it would save me 20 bucks.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

I checked the part numbers and they're totally different. No hurt in trying to bolt it on though! haha

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Heh. I've got 20 grand into my build and it's just a race car.

-- Joe

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

No "bash" d00d, just HONESTY.

If you got the big pile of stuff you say you got for as little as you got it for, you got LUCKY; and/or, you weren't in a hurry and could bide your time until such stuff popped up. Great way to do things, (let somebody else eat the depreciation from opening the boxes) IF you have the time, and IF it works out. And of course, IF it turns out that all the stuff you got that way, is actually ANY GOOD; that's always a crap shoot.

That's a VERY DIFFERENT THING from "prove than anyone can do a v6 to v8 swap and have it run nice for less than a grand".

That's coming from somebody that's probably been raiding junkyards since before your father was born.

But regardless, best of luck to ya; I hope it works out like you think it's going to. If I was the betting kind though, my money wouldn't be on it happening that way. On account of, unlike you, this ain't my first rodeo. My advice to you would be, have some cash in reserve, since you're likely to eventually need it.

Black and aaron: AFAIK a 6-cyl starter will not bolt to a V8. Mech vs hyd makes no difference. Any starter that will work with the one, will work with the other. (on a V8 anyway... I haven't the vaguest hint of a whiff of a glimpse of a clues about anything to do with a 6-cyl anything)

black83camaro

I took the radiator and cooling fans out of a car that got into an accident and got wrapped around a tree. This means that the car was running and driving on the road and was only sent to the junkyard due to it being totaled. Because of this, I specifically took the radiator out of that car rather than one that was just sitting there. I pulled the cap off and the antifreeze in the thing looked brand new with no rust! I feel as though it is possible to do the swap for cheap, you just have to take your time, know what to look for, and price everything out. Hey any idiot can do it with money right?

I have one question that is relate also. How hard is it to push in the clutch with a mechanical linkage setup to a 10.4" Organic clutch? My brother had an 86 Chevy with a mechanical linkage and it had a fairly hard pedal, nothing overwhelming but would not be fun in heavy traffic. I was just wondering because my mechanical linkage now is a breeze to push in. Granted its a smaller clutch but it shouldnt be impossible right? I do not know if it is inversely dependent on the material of the clutch? like a ceramic vs organic?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The ease of pushing is about the same between mech & hyd actuators, once the friction and binding and whatnot in the Stone Age system is factored out. After all, you push the pedal however far (8" let's say), which moves the clutch about ½" - 5/8" or so, which means you have about a 15:1 lever ratio on it no matter which actuator you use, which means that for any given clutch, the pedal effort is roughly the same. Like, if you do what I used to do and drill holes and install grease fittings near the ends of the Z bar in every stick shift car I owned from the mid 70s on, and compared it to the modern system right immediately after greasing it. Problem always was, grease only seemed to last a coupla weeks; and then I was right back to fighting the binding in the linkage, the engine moving front-to-rear in the chassis, the firewall bending where the pedal mounted to it, and all those other things that deteriorate the performance of the Stone Age system but don't affect the modern one.

Actually the smaller clutch usually has tighter springs than the larger. After all, that 64 has an 11" clutch, and while that .6" doesn't sound like much, remember that it's all AT THE VERY OUTSIDE EDGE of the setup, meaning that the increase in swept area is proportional to the SQUARE of the change, and the leverage that it has is proportional to the change in diameter WHICH FURTHER MULTIPLIES its effectiveness, specifically the increase in power transmission varies with THE CUBE of the change in diameter; and since you only start out with around 4 - 5" of the diameter actually being swept by the friction, then ultimately, that extra .6" gives you almost 50% more power transmission all by itself; so the larger clutches usually had somewhat lighter springs than the smaller ones, not needing them to be the same stiffness. I would expect that if you took your 64 and swapped in a 10.4" clutch and made no other changes, pedal pressure would increase substantially, since that's what was always the case when the same chassis was available with both sizes. (say, Nova w 6-cyl vs same car except w V8)

The pressure of the spring(s) of the pressure plate is not affected by the choice of lining on the disc.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Bingo. Simple with factory parts

Bearing retainer from a 98-02 V6 T5 and a standard GM HTOB bolts right on. Shim as needed, drill holes for the lines and rock on

Sonofamitch

[QUOTE=anesthes;5767496]Yes, I ran one for a while.

It pushes against the bearing retainer.

Howe 82876.

-- Joe[/QUOTe

I've got one I'll sell you. Used it in one endurance race and it blew out the seals in 5 hours.
They've always worked fine in my circle track stuff and MAY be okay for street use. Racing, NO!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is plain silly.

-- Joe

Sonofamitch

How so, Joe? I wish it would work better because I'm sure dreading digging up manual linkage parts and pieces.
BTW, this is in a 84' with a Tex super t10. I suppose we COULD buy a new bellhousing and stock type master and slave..

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Lots of people use them for racing, and for thousands and thousands of miles without issue.

Either it was defective, or more likely not shimmed correctly for the application. Did you measure your stack up depth before or after you added washers between the bell housing and the block?

I also ran one for a while when I had the steel bell housing which had no provisions for a slave cylinder.

-- Joe

Sonofamitch

I measured, shimmed, remeasured, removed, shimmed, measured, shimmed.

Maybe I'll give it another shot. 4 of us own the car and one of the partners is saying we should get a Mcleod brand bearing and should have got one to begin with. Investigating...