beachrodder

I have a 1987 Trans Am with a 305 TPI V8 and a 5 speed manual transmission with hydraulic clutch set up. All stock from the factory.

I would like to put in a 408 cu. in. 2 piece rear seal carburated small block (0.040 over a stock 400 bore) with a Super T-10 and a Mr. Gasket vertical gate shifter. I know that some Hurst vertical gates are smaller in size, but I think that the later Hurst vertical gates were basically the same as the Mr. Gasket design that I have.

This picture is not mine, it is from the internet, but mine is the same shifter:




I have been reading things here and so far I think I am looking at a new drive shaft, new crossmember , shifter location problems, new bell housing, maybe new throw out bearing, new fuel pump in the tank, new throttle cable bracket, cruise control bracket changes, speedo drive change, torque arm must mount to the new crossmember instead of the tranny.

What are all the things I would need to do this and what are the right parts? I know people put T56s in these cars too , but I am wondering about the Super T10 setup possibility.

Thanks for any info.

John

Eric-86sc

iTrader: (18)

Not sure about the vertigate part but some 82s had t10 transmissions so the linkage, z bar, etc are all out there as factory pieces for a swap.

beachrodder

Thankyou for the reply Eric-86sc.

My car already has a hydraulic clutch set up. I am hoping to be able to use the hydraulic set up with the Super T-10.

John

jmd

iTrader: (4)

The Lakewood replacement scattershield for 84-92 V8 F-bodies has dual transmission bolt patterns for the (canted) T5 and straight-up T10 / Saginaw etc.

You will also need 82 length driveshaft and torque arm, or preferably an aftermarket torque arm mount crossmember. Especially since I don't think your T10 has the 82 tailhousing on it.

beachrodder

Thanks for the info on the Lakewood bell housing jmd.

My T10 does not have the 82 tailhousing, so it looks like I will need an aftermarket crossmember. I have read about Spohn crossmembers.

Do you know if the stock type clutch disk and pressure plate from a one piece rear main seal flywheel would fit properly on the flywheel of a two piece rear main seal?

Also do you know if the T10 is much stronger than a T5? Am I getting into a bunch of work and a bunch of money for nothing? From what I have seen aren't both of them around 300 ft pounds of torque?

I have read about T56's but I am interested in this comparison.

Thanks
John

jmd

iTrader: (4)

No. The third gens used the same clutches through 92 but the flywheel has to match the crank. So to re-use an 86-92 F-body clutch, you need to use an 85-down 2pc rear main seal flywheel balanced for the 400. And to re-use a used clutch with new flywheel, you should get the pressure plate machined and break in the clutch like a new one.

I'd rather have a perceived weak transmission with ideal ratios (V8 T5) than one without overdrive. I definitely would match the 408 with a T56 instead of a 4 speed. I swapped a friend's 408 / T5 over to T56.

You can fill in your car details here

beachrodder

Thanks again jmd.

I have been reading about the "World Class" T5 here. I am hoping my Car might have one of those. I have seen pictures of the two here. But my memory of it is that it looks like the NON "World Class" transmission.

My car is outside and there is over a foot of snow around it right now but things are melting. As soon as the snow goes away I am going to get under it and look at that transmission and see if I am lucky enough to have a "World Class" T5.

I have read that they are rated at 300? foot pounds of torque. My Super T10 is a 3:42 first gear ratio and from what I see it is rated at 286 foot pounds of torque.

This picture is from someone elses earlier posting.




The lower one is the "World Class" T5. Big differences in the mounting flange shapes.

beachrodder

I just read on here that the "World Class" T5s started in 1988, guess I am out of luck on that one.

beachrodder

If sometime later I want to put a T56 in this car with the 408, from what I have read I would not be able to use the stock 400 flywheel, is that right?

I would have to buy a pricey aftermarket flywheel to accomodate the T56 clutch assembly?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Those pics look familiar somehow... so does the junk on my shelves behind them...

The mounting flanges on the 2 designs are actually identical. They might "look" different but they're not. They just have different casting "features" distributed variously around them.

BTW I REFUSE to use that stoooopid PIT Team TQM SixSigma Quality ISO-9000 BUZZWORD to describe the 2nd design unit. Every time I see it I envision some old graybeard executive sitting in a conference room and some summer intern telling him all about this exciting "new" "revolutionary" concept he learned about in some class he took last semester, and convincing the geezer that the term is destined for some kind of permanent exalted greatness. Instead, the last 30 years have relegated it to the dustbin of "trendy" management BUZZWORDS that make professionals today laugh (or throw up in the back of their mouth a little) every time they hear them.

The difference in "strength" between the 1st and 2nd design T-5s is minimal. The gears are the same distance apart and the same diameters, in any given ratio; and that's the main determining factor of "strength". The main differences between them internally are devoted to improving gas mileage, not "strength".

Don't get hung up in a bunch of "ratings" crap. T-5s are WEEEEEEK. The first handful I tore up, were with my stock 305. People have tore them up with 6-cyls.

The T-10 is a MUCH "stronger" transmission. It suffers the serious shortcoming in 2015 however, of having no overdrive. A T-56 is a MUCH better deal. It has about the same "strength" as a T-10, has similar 1st - 3rd ratios, but adds 2 OD gears.

No you cannot use a stock 400 flywheel with a T-56. (at least, not with a stock 94-97 aka LT1 one) Must use a $$$$pecial "swap" flywheel. The rules are different with aftermarket bell housings etc. but that's certainly not a way to "save money".

beachrodder

To sofakingdom thankyou for the reply, you might have noticed I put the words "World Class" in brackets each time, not sure if I missed any. I feel the same way as you do, it is a stupid sounding buzzword. Maybe if was a Lambourgini or Ferrari transmission I would have gone along with the credit as "World Class" but it ain't no where near that stuff, lol.

Sorry about hi-jacking your photo, I did mention that I got it someplace else on here, but I could not remember who posted it.

Knowing that T10s are much stronger makes me feel better. I bought one about a year or so ago. It is a 3:42 first gear ratio tranny, from charts I have and from looking online I have found it is rated as 286 foot pounds.

The lower numbered first gear ratio T10s are rated at 375 ft.Lbs. for the 2.43 first gear,.... 325 ft. Lbs. for the 2.64 first gear, ....300 ft. Lbs. for the 2.88 first gear, ....and mine at 286 ft. Lbs. for the 3:42 first gear.

I have been undecided what to do between my T5 and my Super T10 due to not being sure about the strength of each and the extra cost and hassle of putting in the T10. Plus I am concerned about the shifter location. The car is just sitting with all the original equipment still in it. I don't want to start tearing things apart until I feel the whole restoration will be worth the cost and all the work.

The car needs minor body work, paint job, some small floor patching (underside looks really good everywhere else, it was undercoated), it needs a motor , main (front) carpet to really look good, all the gas struts, brakets for throttle and cruise control for changing it over to a carburetor, plus necessary crossmember and hardware for the T10 if I put that in it and probably a few other little things here and there.

So before I dig in with my wallet and my efforts I want to be sure it is worth it.

Right now by my estimates I am going to have about $8000 going into it if I do the body work and paint it myself and I'll still have a weak rear end in it.

Ouch!

Plus we have pollution police who can yank it off the road if the emissons equipment is missing. I don't think I have ever seen one (they ride in police cars with police). They can send ANY pre 1988 car in for an emissions test and it has to pass emissions standards of 1980. That includes the 1932 Ford coupe type guys, 1950s guys and all. Plus any car equipped with emissions equipment originally has to have it on the car and working. I have seen lots of guys who are hot rodding and getting away without emissions equipment in pre 1988 cars though. In Canada we only need emissions tests from 1988 and up. Mine is 1987 luckily.

As you can imagine the whole thing has me flip flopping with a tough decision.

John

beachrodder

I am looking at the Lakewood 15020 bell housing at Summit Racing. I am wondering if it would use the same clutch fork and throw out bearing with both the T5 and the Super T10. Would any of you know about this?

http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...5020/overview/

I am also considering removing my center console between my seats to allow me to use my vertical gate shifter by cutting the floor as needed . I would just make a decent looking box to house the window switches and the power mirror control switch. Maybe place it up near the radio and heater / defroster controls. There are replacement carpets from ACC that do not have cut outs for the center console , so they would be continuous over the trans tunnel and I would just cut it out for the shifter hole and the emergency brake handle.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Yes, 15020 is 84-92 appropriate, including using the same fork, slave cylinder.

As an alternate to your current plan, a T56 could potentially be used with stock torque arm, driveshaft and console.

The main reason I'd be hesitant to go with what you have is the wide ratios. Driving a wide ratio T5 (V6 versions, Mustang V8 versions) is less satisfying than a V8 T5 like you have, just because of the gear ratio spread.

beachrodder

Thanks again jmd.

Yesterday I went online and looked at the Canadian government website about emissions and Hot Rods. To be considered a Hot Rod the motor has to be a motor that was not originally availble for the car based on displacement, manufacturer or a different type than was used in the model or year of the car. I found that if the motor has been changed after 1999 then the emission equipment required is that which originally came with the motor, not the car.

My car is a 1987 and it does not need emissions testing. Cars from 1988 and up need emissions tests in Canada. Plus I have a 1968 Chevy 350 block, in Canada there were no emissions equipment on 1968 cars. I am thinking now of building a 383 with this block and would therefore not need any emissions equipment on the car.

For me that means now I am thinking of going ahead with this project.

Here is the Canadian law regarding emissions and Hot Rods.

http://www.ontario.ca/faq/do-hot-rod...ive-clean-test


As far as transmissions go I am undecided at the moment. To me since this is a street car and never going to be at a drag strip it is the look and character of the car that is most important . When I was young about a hundred years ago, I had a Hurst vertical gate shifter in a 1965 Chevy 2 . It had an engine I rebuilt out of a stock car and I put in that vertical gate shifter with a Muncie transmission. I thought that shifter was cool and fun to shift and made it feel like more of a Hot Rod ( remember the character part). The engine had a 245 degree duration at 0.050 lift cam with 110 degree lobe separation and was a 327. Between the power , the rumpity rump cam and the vertical gate shifter plus solid steel motor mounts it felt like a real Hot rod driving it. I didn't even have to drive it fast to feel like it was a nasty machine. I'll be using a similar cam in the 383 maybe even a 250 degree duration due to the bigger displacement than the 327 I had.

That is the kind of character I want in this car. It'll be powerfull enough for me, but the overall character of driving it is whats important to me. I am sure there will be faster cars around than a 383, but they won't have any more Hot Rod character driving them, even when I am just slowly cruising down the road. We all know that we are limited with speed and burn outs on the street and it'll never be going to a drag strip. For me it's cool to be driving something thats really gnarly all the time, I don't have to be tearing up the streets.

John

Eric-86sc

iTrader: (18)

that is an awesome description on why older cars are fun to own, couldn't agree more. Good luck with the swap, I hope you keep progress posted on here.

beachrodder

Thanks Eric-86sc it was nice of you to say that, I am glad you feel the same way as I do .

This car has been sitting for a long long time due to a lack of money and health reasons. I have never had the heart to sell it because I think the car is so cool just couldn't do it. My health is doing ok these days and I paid off my house last fall so now I am starting to have a little extra cash. Due to a big upgrade I need to do to my house my cash will stil be a little low for a while, but at least now I can see being able to get to this car and slowly start bring it back better than its former glory.

It's been a long long time since I have had a gnarly Hot Rod to enjoy, but with some time and the spare money I'll soon be having I am starting to get excited about it all.

I had thoughts of saving up and buying a 1998 or so C5 Corvette, but then I would have a cool car with a powerfull engine but it would be too polite.

I don't want politeness , I want something that feels like it is snarling and growling its way down the road.

I want a gnarly bad ride.

John

Tony V

iTrader: (5)

I am currently in the process of putting a Super T10 with V-Gate shifter in my 88 Camaro. Right now it has a TH400 behind a 383. Here in Maryland we have historical tags for cars over 20 years old. The caveat is that it not be a daily driver. I've got the pedals, the trans, the shifter and the bellhousing. Plan on going with hydraulic TO bearing setup. I will most likely have to manufacture a crossmember as my torque arm is attached it currently.

I couldn't agree more with your character reference. I'm almost inclined to add a gear drive to my motor for the added 70's effect that I grew up with.

-Tony

beachrodder

Right on Tony, a four speed and vertical gate shifter will give driving your car a whole new driving character. I know that a companty called "Spohn" is making crossmembers that would work in your car with that Super T-10, check them out. The hydraulic throw out bearing I am thinking of using sits completely inside the bell housing. At this point I am not planning on using the original clutch slave cylinder, only the original clutch master cylinder which is already in my car. That way I do not need a custom bell housing like a Lakewood blowproof bell housing. Just an ordinary stock bell housing should work. Companies like "Tilton", "Howe" and "Quarter Master" make them. They are more normally used in racing applications. We added a second line to our "Howe" hydraulic release bearing for bleading the hydraulics outside of the bell housing. I added internet pictures with one picture showing two lines going out, one to operate the clutch, the other line is for bleading with out having to disassemble the transmision and bell housing. Ideally the bleading line should be positoned at the top of the bearing if possible. I am not sure what make bearing is in the top picture, the second picture shows a "Howe" hydraulic bearing. We added a blead line where you see the bleader nipple on the "Howe" bearing.

Best of luck with your car!

John