SolarGoldRaptor

Hi,

I will rebuild my original matching numbers Borg Warner T5 in a near future. It works great but whines in all gears and leaks fluid. I'm not sure how long it will last in this condition...I don't drive the car a lot, once or twice a week, but I don't want it to break as I don't have much money to spare.

I've never done that, so which rebuild kit would you recommend ?

What special tools are needed ?

The car is stock and will remain stock, but are there strength upgrades available besides a stronger case from G-Force for instance ?

Do I have to pull the clutch bell and transmission in one piece or I can remove the transmission only and the clutch bell later ?

Which clutch do I need on an original '84 L69 5 speed ? I have no problem with the clutch at the moment, but I figure if the trans is out, it would be a good idea to replace it.

Is the PRO 5.0 shifter worth it ? Is it even compatible with F-Bodies ? I don't care much about the original shifter, being used to Porsches and Ferraris...

Thanks !

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

"Whines in all gears and leaks fluid" sounds kinda grim... past the point where a "rebuild kit" will do much good.

The way those fail is, the front of the case stretches from the force of the clutch gear and countergear trying to spread themselves out. Then, once the case is compromised, 2 things happen next: (1) the front countergear bearing, which has no seal, leaks all the fluid out; and (2) the 2 gears, now being free to be misaligned, eat each other. The destroyed gears are the source of the whine. I would offer to correct your description, and tell you that it whines in all gears EXCEPT 4th; that being, because 4th gear is the only one that doesn't cause power to flow through that particular place.

Here's what one looks like that leaks fluid. Note the stain below the countergear bearing in the 1st design trans, in the top pic. Note also, the "ring" around it you can see, where it's been spinning in the case and has rubbed up against the back of the clutch gear bearing retainer.



I know of no other upgrades besides that one. And even that one, makes no economic sense whatsoever. Since the 2 main gears are destroyed, you need both of those, plus a case, plus a "kit", plus all the other things that typically wear out in these... clutch gear bearing retainer maybe, the little plastic pade that go on the shift forks, keys, maybe other stuff too, who knows what is tore up from the trans running dry. It piles up REAL QUICK.

You can pull the trans and BH either way; either separately or together. Probably easier to do them separately.

You need a 10.4" 26-spline clutch setup. I really liked the Centerforce Dual Friction while I still had hallucinations that a T-5 could somehow not tear up in my car, before I wised up and got a clue; although I've had clutches from about every major mfr over the years except Spec (Ram, B-W, McLeod, Hayes, maybe a few others) and they were all just fine, every one.

Yes AFAIK Pro 5.0 makes the correct shifter for these cars. I bought a Hurst for my car (83 L69) in about 85 or 86; loved it. I always hated the stock one: felt like the shift action had a bowl of oatmeal somewhere in the scheme of things, and when I literally busted my knuckles shifting to 3rd one day, I decided it just HAD TO go.

I STRONGLY urge you to re-think this plan. Yeah, you said "want to keep it stock"; yeah, I know, you don't want to hear it; BUT, that doesn't change THE REALITY of the situation, which is, your trans is SMOKED and is now GARBAGE, and you can "rebuild" it every day of the week and twice on Sundays just for good measure, and it will STILL be fragile and failure prone. Yeah I know, all you really want is for somebody to come in here and be a cheerleader and tell you all about how good it's gonna be; but that would be A LIE, and whatever things I may be, a LIAR is not one of them. So I am morally obligated to tell you straight up that of all the things in the world to sink money into, a 1st design T-5 behind a V8 ranks REAL LOW on the common-sensical list, like REAL NEAR THE BOTTOM.

Start saving up for a T-56.

SolarGoldRaptor

How could the transmission work perfectly with the two main gears damaged or destroyed ? It shifts smoothly and never misses a gear. It sometimes grinds a bit when I switch to reverse but it might have been me not pushing the clutch pedal enough (the clutch course is very long compared to most cars I've driven).

I'm not doubting your experience with these, and I've heard so many horror stories that I'm expecting anything with this transmission, especially since it's an early T5.

I'm fairly sure it wines in 4th gear too, I will have to check next time I drive her. But it's definitely louder in 1st to 3rd.

If it's not damaged yet, is this thing worth it ? : http://www.5speeds.com/t5.htm

Switching to an LT1 T56 has been on the back of my mind for a while, but finding one here is hard, and it's not legal to change the number of speed of a transmission as it changes the tax ratio...not that I care much but it could be highly problematic in case of an accident.

AFAIK a WC T5 isn't particularly stronger so I don't think it's an interesting option either...

I have a Mercedes 6 speed lying around, it was on the back of a diesel 5 cylinders, no idea how to adapt it though :P

SolarGoldRaptor

By the way, I've flushed the transmission fluid about 500 miles ago and it was still bright red with no metallic particles (I had driven it about 300 miles then after I put the car back together, I changed the ATF for 75W90). About three liters were in the tray despite the leak.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Because the gears that are destroyed, and the way they are destroyed, has nothing whatsoever to do with "work" or "shift" or "miss". The way they are ruined, is that they mis-align; therefore the teeth don't mesh the way they're designed to; therefore there's a place on the gear teeth that's not intended to take the full engine force, that does. It won't last forever. One of the times mine tore up, was when I took my 7-yr-old soon to Talladega, would have been maybe 94 or 95 or so (Rusty Wallace finished about 5th or 6th on the lead lap in the air flipping, look it up) ... it was dying seriously all the way there... on the way back, the teeth started stripping off the countergear. It made THE MOST GODAWFUL NOISE I think I have ever heard a transmission make. My son, having just left a stock car race at the fastest track in the world, was holding his ears. People were coming out of their houses to see what was going by making all that noise. Fortunately about 100 miles outside of Birmingham the last teeth finally broke off, at which point it got MUCH quieter; only thing was, I had no gears any more, other than 4th. (I threw that whole transmission in the trash and like a dumbass started all over again with a fresh core... I think I was up to more than $3000 in T-5 crap by that time... what an idiot I am)

It doesn't. I'm on the other side of the pond, haven't even been in France for about a year now, and I'm pretty sure anyway.

It's already damaged, so that part is a moot point; but, no. It doesn't fit your transmission. It's for 2nd design T-5s.

It's OK, I may sound like a jerk, but I've been right where you are right now, over and over and over and over. Unfortunately for the first 10 - 12 years or so of fighting those weenie pieces of dog excrement, there were no alternatives, so I kept plowing money back into them over and over and over and over. I bet I spent $5000 on T-5 stuff before I finally quit that stupidity and did something sensible. I'm trying to save you from going down the same road I went down. You're not going to rewrite the laws of physics any more than I (a physicist) can, so PLEASE believe what I'm telling you and wise up.

The trans will tear up quicker with ATF than with gear lube. I suggest you change back.

SolarGoldRaptor

Allright, so I guess I'm better off driving it until it breaks :/

I replaced the ATF I put in the first place with 75W90, that's what I meant I haven't noticed any difference though.

So what are the alternatives to a T56, TKO500 ?

SolarGoldRaptor

I went for a short ride this afternoon and indeed...no whine in 4th gear :'(

spicyskater

makes no sence rebuilding it.too much money and there is no parts for them cose everyone dumps them after they brake..just drive it till it brakes...you should know early t5 leak oil from the vent tube if u drive them hard ...later model t5 has extendet tube...it leaks all over the rear housing ,so make sure that's not the case with u...ow and u cant realy brake it that easy...my car is about 300 hp I have been drag racing it for 3 seasons ...it held up fine...really depends how u drive it

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Another T5, T56, TKO500, TKO600

86iroct5

sofakingdom- you are the only reason i continue to sift through these forums, your posts are pure art. informative in the most sarcastic and honest way but its great, i love it.

to the OP, IF you true are keeping your car stock... like all stock and dont really beat on it. the stock NWC trans will be ok. as far as the whining no one really knows what the culprit is until you get inside the trans. if you are asking how to rebuild it its unlikely you will be able to see what the issue is or know what to look for. that being said the actual mechanics of rebuilding the trans is not rocket science. it can be done by your basic guy with fairly simple tools. your main issue will be the bearings, pressing in and out. good snap ring pliers are a must, trans assemble lube, rtv are things that i needed when i did mine. check youtube and google. there are many guides and videos for these transmissions. thegearbox.org has all the parts you need

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sounds sensible enough; until you get all the way done "rebuilding", and discover, the trans STILL leaks all the fluid out in just a few miles, and it STILL whines. Nothing will change.

I've been inside enough of those things that leak and whine, to be quite sure what makes them leak and whine. I'll have to look through the T-5 junk I haven't thrown away yet and see if I can find some gears with the telltale wear marks on the teeth. I doubt I have any, as they are utterly worthless once that happens, and I don't keep worthless stuff around cluttering up my garage any more than I have to; but maybe I have one I kept as a clutch alignment tool or something.

Time was, those of us who wanted to learn about this hobby, had no choice but to spend our money and take our chances. But things are different now. Algore invented the Interwebz, and all the sudden, it became possible for experienced people to pass on their experience, to those with less experience. In other words, YOU DON'T HAVE TO LEARN EVERYTHING THE HARD WAY ANYMORE!!! How wonderful! Take advantage of it, profit from my EXPENSIVE experience FOR FREE, and spare yourself a total waste of time, money, effort, frustration, and disappointment. Throw that transmission in the trash and get a T-56.

SolarGoldRaptor

I'm already starting to save money for another transmission I'm keeping the car stock, but I don't mind improvements. I'm not racing it, it's not the fastest car around anyway and I'm not into racing, just driving and taking care of it.

I've looked a bit at some other affordable options, and the Getrag 265 is one of them, there's a company in the UK that makes adapter plates that go between the bellhousing and the trans : http://www.aksportscars.co.uk/shop/g...or-kit-jaguar/
It's getting popular with british hot rodders and Cobra replica makers.
The Getrag 265 is much easier to find around here, and much cheaper generally. They are commonly found in 80's-90's Jaguars and BMWs.

The main issue is I don't know if the driveshaft will work as is or if it will have to be modified (very likely) and above all, there's no provision for the torque arm.
Gear ratios are different but no too far off if it's a Jaguar box.
I need to do more research about it, it's not as common as T-56 swaps so there's less documentation about it.

86iroct5

ill bet it wont leak if you use RTV on it. none of the t5s ive taken apart have leaked not even from the counter shaft bearing..

novaderrik

since this thread is relevant to what i'll be doing pretty soon- putting a NWC T5 in my Camaro- what can be done to it to make it last longer than it should? i'm not talking about driving like a granny to make it live or make it last 5 seasons of WFO powershifting abuse on a road course: what can be done to help it live for a few extra miles?
what oil is best to run in it?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

RTV is useless. Won't keep the bearing from spinning. First time the bearing moves all that crap will just get ground up to powder and will disappear. Which is pretty much, the first time you back it down the driveway.

Not putting it in a car. Or at least, not installing it properly... if installed improperly (i.e. laying in the back seat floorboard) it might last longer.

Other than that, it's all up to "luck". Haven't found any particular deity that specializes in preserving metal parts, that seems to be amenable to prayers or sacrifices or anything.

Gear lube is best in a 1st design T-5. I always used to run 75W-90 Mobil1, at least until it leaked out so fast from the enlarged bearing hole with the spinning bearing in it, that it wasn't worth the cost; at which time I just started using the cheeeeeeeeeeepest thing I could find that said "gear lube" on the side, while looking for the next vict .... uhhhhh, core.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

You could build a 2.97 first / 0.63 fifth T56 Magnum and lock out 6th.
It would be a lot of money and some custom work like drive-shaft shortening and crossmember for the torque arm.
And it would work with your L69 / clutch / flywheel / starter.

blackngoldz28

SolarGoldRaptor,

What ever came of your '84 NWC T5? I'm replacing the clutch in my '83 Z this year and (to me) my engine and trans seem about as bullet proof as you can get for a combo that gets sh** on more than anything else on the internet.