Bubbajones_ya

I recently swapped my old V6 T5 tranny (pre 88) that one of the previous owners had installed with a V8 T5 from a 91.

BEFORE the swap, I had BAD clutch chatter despite having a new pressure plate, clutch disk, throwout bearing and resurfacing the flywheel. This was done about 5 months ago after I pulled my engine to do some work on it. Also, occasionally I would hear a scratching type noise when the clutch was depressed (more so when the pedal was fully depressed) which I assumed was a bad throwout bearing (despite being new.)

AFTER I installed the WC T5, I kept the same pilot bushing (was a fairly new brass one and looked perfect still), lightly scuffed the flywheel with a sharpening stone (no local places did resurfacing and it still look pretty good), but got everything else new. My clutch kit was a brand called LUK which came with a new pressure plate, throwout bearing and clutch disk.

The first few trips of driving, everything seemed great. There was (and pretty much still is) no clutch chatter anymore, and I didn't have any abnormal noises or sounds. However, after a few day of driving on the new T5, I started having issues.


When the clutch pedal is fully depressed, there is often a scratching/rattling noise when trying to shift into gear, making it harder to shift.

-The noise happens MOSTLY when trying to shift INTO gear. (First is the most common but it can happen with all gears)
-The noise SOMETIMES randomly happens when I'm ALREADY in gear and have had the clutch pedal fully depressed (as if I am at a stoplight in first with the clutch pedal depressed or if I'm inching my way back or forwards into a parking spot with the clutch depressed)
-The noise NEVER seems to happen when I'm shifting OUT of gear

This issue has been increasing in occurrence this past week. I'm aware of the proper way to install the throwout bearing so I should have done that properly (doesn't mean I didn't mess up but I'm pretty sure it's installed correctly.)


Something I just tried today that seemed to make a huge difference is WAIT after I press the clutch pedal down a few second before shifting.

What I would do is while accelerating, fully depress the clutch pedal then wait roughly 2-3 seconds (counting one thousand one etc.), then shift into the next gear. While doing this, the issue seemed to disappear. This also worked if I was in neutral at a stop light and needed to shift into first.


My questions are:

Does this seem transmission related or clutch related?

I was thinking syncros, but when the noise doesn't happen, it shifts as well as my last tranny (expect its a tiny bit harder to get into 5th than my last T5.)

Do the clutch hydraulics go bad even if they don't show signs of leaking?

My clutch fluid reservoir seemed full, but that doesn't mean everything is well with it either. The pedal pressure and movement seem normal for what I'm used to.


Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I tried looking things up but wasn't quite sure what fit my bill. I did order a new master and slave cylinder from Napa so I have to pick that up today. Worst case scenario, I can just throw my old V6 T5 back up and try and learn how to rebuild the other T5. Hopefully it doesn't come to that point though.

Bubbajones_ya

An update:

The issue actually does seem to occur when I shift OUT of gear if I'm going highway speeds in 4th or 5th gear. It doesn't seem to stop if I'm in fifth (even after shifting out of gear) until I release the clutch pedal while coasting or shift back into a gear.

I just got back from my evening class so I'm going to try and swap out my master and slave cylinder now. The fluid in the reservoir didn't seem to look to great (I saw some particles) and my replacement cap (I got at a junkyard) had dry-rotted like my first. I still have the rubber stopper though.

Bubbajones_ya

Well I'm in the process of installing a new master and slave cylinder I bought from NAPA.

I've been trying to bench bleed the setup following this video for about 2 hours and it seems like no matter what, I can't get all the air out of the system. At least it wasn't incredibly difficult to take the whole system down though. I'm wondering if the master may have been bad from the box because I can hear what sounds like very small amounts of air from the MASTER cylinder when the SLAVE is being pushed in and also extending back to it's original position. I did fill everything up before trying to press down on the slave or master.

The master cylinder seems to have a little under 1/4in travel, which is about twice as much compared to supposedly being under 1/8th in from the video. Each time I try to get air out, I see very small bubbles, but not matter how much I try, the play doesn't change and it seems like the same amount of air keeps coming out.

I don't really have much of a choice so I'm going to try and install the setup now. Apart from the air being stuck in the system, the second reservoir cap completely fell apart now so I had to get a generic cap from Oreillys that SORT OF fits. Its very surprising, no one sells master cylinder reservoirs or caps unless I special order online....

Hopefully replacing these helps the issue I had with the transmission... or at least doesn't make it worse since the damn air won't come out of the master. I had to skip class today because I thought this would only take me a total of 4 hours (I started at 10) but it's been 5 and I'm only about 2/3 the way done...

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Infinite air bubbles means you should be looking at a possible point of introduction, like at the reservoir hose where it fits to the master.

Don't take the 1/4 travel as a measurement to go by. If bleeding using the video method, you're looking for a solid, unable to be pressed master cylinder piston. Just like a brake master cylinder.

Make sure the bellhousing bolts haven't loosened. (BTDT )

It kind of sounds like a transmissions issue, but it's tough to say. Because it seems to be across all gears, it may be a clutch issue. Does the disc float on the input splines smoothly?

Ultimately, if your car in 1st gear, pedal down, stuck at 3000, doesn't move, then the clutch is releasing.

Hope your new parts help.

Bubbajones_ya

Thank you for the reply!

As for the a point of air induction, I was thinking the hose that connects to the master from the reservoir. I did put a new small hose clamp on it and tightened it pretty well, but couldn't tell for sure if that's where air may have been coming from or not.

As for after I installed the new hydraulics, not much seemed to change. It did appear as if the situation got slightly better, and that the clutch pedal felt a little more stiff than before (but I didn't think it felt bad to begin with at all.)


However, I just tested what you said about car staying still at 3000rpm with the clutch pressed in while in first.

It DID want to budge just as it hit 3000. I tried it a few times and the noise happened and then the car slightly jerked forward. I did it three times in the parking lot and each time it wanted to budge with the clutch pedal fully depressed when my tachometer read 3000rpm.


This at least seems like big progress to me. So part of my problem (or hopefully all) is that the clutch doesn't seem to be fully releasing.


I will definitely check to make sure the bell-housing or transmission bolts have not back out. Besides that, what else can I check?

When I installed the transmission, it did seem to be facing a ways off to the drivers side. When I jack the end back up, it lined up a bit better, but still seemed too far off. So, I had to push really hard to line it up to bolt it to the transmission mount. Could this have part to do with anything?

AmpleUnicorn88

I would like to add that mine is doing the same thing. We tried to figure this out on mine since mine has been very bad for months. Mine is a WC V8 T5. Mine has been making the horrible scratching noise since changing the clutch when it went out. Sounds like a printer is about to explode. Mine only happens when pressing the clutch in (disengaged) as well. It doesn't make a grinding noise when going into gear and as soon as I'm off the clutch pedal, it stops immediately every time.

Bubbajones_ya

Looking at this thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...-problems.html

85_SS ended up making an adjustable push-rod for the slave cylinder. Does anyone think this may be a feasible idea to try in my situation? It would be a quick and relatively easy procedure to do. Obviously, I still have to make sure the bellhousing/transmission bolts have not backed out and that everything is lined up properly, but before dropping my transmission, I would like to try this.

86iroct5

that shouldn't be the problem, i believe he had that issue due to the pedal geometry.

are you use you have the clutch disk installed facing the proper way?

Bubbajones_ya

I know when installing the clutch I was cognizant of making sure it was the right way. My new disk didnt have any markings on it but I put the part that sticksup more towards the pressure plate side which I believe is the proper way. Once I get home today I'll be able to take a closer look and drop the transmission if necessary.

Bubbajones_ya

I haven't been able to do much, but I did some checking.

I measured the slave cylinder extension, and it seemed to be exactly at .57 inches of travel (which apparently is the spec for travel). I used a pipe to keep the pedal depressed while going underneath the car. If anything, the pedal could potentially have been pressed in a very tiny bit more.

Also, I check the transmission bolts to bell-housing and the bell-housing bolts to the block. Both seemed to be securely fastened and not backed out.



A few things I think this leave the problem to are:

- I screwed up and somehow slightly warped my clutch disk during install (doesn't seem too likely to me though) OR I installed it backwards (also I don't believe I did that.)
- The fork pivot ball is worn (I've never changed it and my car has an unknown amount of miles probably around 200k plus and my fork is new.)
- Something in the transmission is messed up.


I also read about maybe the input shaft being wedged up against the pilot bushing effectively causing the same situation as a clutch not disengaging. I don't know how this could happen though it my transmission and bell-housing are fully bolted up.




Anyways, apart from my rambling, I decided to try and make my own slave cylinder rod that is slightly larger. It may not help because I believe my pedal geometries are fine.. but hopefully it won't hurt! I'm hoping it can make up for any pivot ball wear I may have. If this doesn't work, the transmission is coming down anyways though so I'll probably be replacing the clutch kit components.


I'll post my results after the test!

Edit: Well it kinda seemed to help slightly, but not much really. I'll try and elongate it a little more, otherwise I'm taking the transmission down. I only elongated it about 0.2 inches so maybe it wasn't enough.

Edit 2: Apparently making a slightly longer rod didn't adjust the travel of fork at all. I just measured the distance it moves and the beginning distance and end distance were identical to from before I adjusted the rod. I guess the self adjusting hydraulic portion made the rod move further back in the cylinder bore instead of pushing the fork in more. I'll try and make the rod a bit longer and see from there. Otherwise I'm left to drop the transmission! I'm just trying to avoid that because I hate redoing the shifter plate RTV and O'reilly's doesn't sell Mobil 1 synth ATF so I have to drive a ways further to get it.

Edit 3: Okay last edit for this post, I just didnt' want to keep bumping the thread up for small things I've done. Anyways, It appears that the hydraulic slve cylinder doesn't want me to elongate the rod. I don't feel like making a super long rod so it bottoms out in the slave housing to force it to elongate because I feel like that won't be a good thing to do. I believe I'm left to replace my pivot ball, but don't know if I should get an adjustable one or not. I'd rather get this done quickly, so if I could buy a part today, I could have my car running tomorrow. But if I have to order one, I'll be left without my car for about a week I'd imagine. Anyways, I'll just have to try and find an adjustable pivot ball or make a stock replacement adjustable somehow.

86iroct5

That isn't the way they normally go. I can check my t5 clutch when I get home but everyone other one I've done the "hat" goes into the flywheel portion

Bubbajones_ya

Oh dang... Okay. I'm going to be taking my transmission down when I get my some more jacks back to let the rear end hang so I'll take a look and make sure to see which orientation I had it in.

I know before, my clutch disks were labeled, but the LUK clutch I got didn't have any labeling. It would be awesome if it was just the clutch backwards and also just needing to replace the pivot ball with a new one.

Should I get an adjustable pivot ball? And if so, will this one work http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...t/model/camaro ? It says aftermarket bellhousings only so I'm a little hesitant on that. I did order a new pivot ball from rock auto that should be shipped to me on Tuesday, but I may check other parts stores to see if I can get one sooner.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

The disc hub for the T5 goes toward the transmission.
(the whole reason the LT1 T56 flywheel is tall is to accommodate the disc hub which doesn'tfit the pressure plate design. The T5 is opposite of that.)

Try a new pivot ball. When you think about it:
It worked when new.
Something is different, preventing it from working.
Hydros are probably good at this point.
Fork is new.
Clutch could use inspection.

Be careful on that adjustable ballstud; Summit says it's a cross for Lakewood 15501 which IIRC, is different thread than what fits the 84-92 bellhousing. I'll see if I have thread detail.

86iroct5

my bad, the t5 one does not go that way. the raised portion is the pressure plate side, the way you described.

Bubbajones_ya

Thank you for the help guys. I've definitely made progress about my problem with the info provided. I just need to have the time to pull my transmission down now to take a closer look. Thanks for the warning on the adjustable ball stud also. I am getting the feeling you are correct that it won't have the proper threads and I'd be out 25 or so bucks after shipping.

I guess I don't feel as bad (dumb) now that the clutch disk should be installed correctly. I still have to wait to get more jacks to take it down and double check.

Another thought came to mind though when doing more research. I don't know the history of my flywheel, and I have had it resurfaced once. It did have a good chunk taken out because the old 9" clutch wore a pretty big impression on it (I could easily visibly see and physically feel the impression it left) from when the car had the V6 T5.

I suppose the flywheel could be out of specs, or at least wear from my system as a whole (pivot ball/flywheel/ potential air in hydraulics) may just be enough to give me these problems which I previously pinned as transmission problems.

I don't believe flywheel shims are something I can go and buy locally so unfortunately I'll probably have to order them online unless someone knows a place I may be able to find them.

I suppose this brings up a new question. Should I bother shimming my (I think stock gm) flywheel, or bite the bullet and purchase a new flywheel from a parts store? I know I could get that this weekend if needed. I think they run about 100 bucks or so. I just don't know if there is a quality difference I should worry about or potential balancing issues with new flywheels.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

I looked; The 84-92 ballstud is probably 22mm with very coarse pitch thread. Coarser than 1.75; might be 2.25 or 2.50 thread pitch. The 83-down is 13/16-16 thread.

Check with a place that machines flywheels for shims.

Bubbajones_ya

Thanks for the info! I'll compare the length of my ballstud when I get it out in a little bit.

My friend actually purchased a new flywheel he's going to let me install so I may not use the shims after all.

I did test a few things before taking down my transmission. I did extend the slave cylinder rod all the way so it bottomed out the cylinder and pushed the fork in a little bit. Once doing this, the noise seemed less severe, but the issue was still prevalent.

I took down my transmission and noticed my pilot bushing was worn quite significantly (when It wasn't worn before putting the transmission in a few weeks ago.)

Here are some pictures:



That is buildup on the shaft from the pilot bushing. The red is some paint that came off the transmission when I painted it.



Here you can see the throwout bearing is still in correctly. The red on this is also from the transmission. I painted over the sleeve that the throughout bearing goes over so I'll probably sand that off.



Here you can see the wear on the bushing. This bushing looked new about 3 weeks ago.


I'm guessing normal reasons for pilot bushing wear would be improper alignment of the bell-housing or transmission, but as I started earlier, they both were fully bolted up against the block and snug.

What other reason would a pilot bushing wear this much and this quickly? The input shaft of the transmission still seems very sturdy and luckily not worn, so I would think the input shaft bearing is okay.


One thing I did which maybe I wasn't supposed to was put the "grease" type stuff included in the kit on the end of the input shaft. It was a grayish thick type paste I think meant for the splines of the shaft. Was I not supposed to put this on the end of the shaft that goes into the bushing? I think this time I'll just use a dab of transmission oil instead of the supplied grease.

--------------EDIT---------------

Upon pulling the bellhousing, this is what everything looked like. The bushing actually didn't look nearly as worn as I thought when I cleaned it up a little bit.


Here is the pivot ball stud. It definitely looks worn, but I'm not sure if it was the whole problem all along because extending the slave cylinder travel didn't fix the issue (which I think would override a worn pivot ball.)


The flywheel looked just like how it did before putting the transmission up.





I couldn't see anything off with the pressure plate or disk either, Photobucket was going slow and wouldn't let me upload pictures of it now, so I can try to upload them a little later today.

-------Edit 2------

Well after going with a buddy to pick up a transmission for his project iroc, I talked to the guy there who knew a bit about transmission and discovered something really stupid I may have done.

I ended up PAINTING and clearing the input shaft retainer when I painted my transmission. The throwout bearing fit over it, but I never bothered to test how well it moved back and forth.

Thinking about how the system functions, that was REALLY stupid of me to paint that and forget about it. When looking at the retainer, I can see where paint was being scraped off, and see the scraped paint inside the throwout bearing. I didn't think this would be much of an issue if the slave cylinder travel is measured to specs, but I suppose all small things add up. I also was able to snag my friends old pivot ball stud which was very noticeably bigger than mine (because it wasn't worn.)

My plan of action now is:

-Remove all the paint from the input shaft retainer and use the proper lubricant on it (that gray paste stuff hopefully Oreillys has)
-Clean the inside of the last throwout bearing to make sure no debris or scraped paint is on it (or use the spare one I had lying around)
-Remove the old pilot bushing and install the new one I had laying around and lube with proper lubricant (I'll have to check which type to put on this)
-Replace the clutch pivot ball stud


I'm hoping this will cure my problems. I measured my flywheel with calipers and it measured the same thickness as the new flywheel (which is weird because I had my old flywheel resurfaced), so I don't think I have a problem there. Also, my clutch disk, pressure plate, and throwout bearing all still looked new. I'm pretty confident now that it's a combination of the very worn pivot ball, the pilot bushing (with the wrong lubricant on it gumming it up) and me being stupid and painting the input shaft retainer.

I'll post my results tomorrow after I do the work and get everything back up.

Bubbajones_ya

Well it appears the problem has been completely solved.

I put in a new pilot bushing and greased it with wheel bearing grease. I also cleaned up and sanded the input shaft retainer with 800 grit and greased it and the throwout bearing with wheel bearing grease as well as the tip of the input shaft. I also replaced the pivot ball.

It seems like things are working perfectly now so I'm extremely relieved. Thanks JMB and 86iroct5 for all the help. Hopefully this thread can help someone else.

I know now in the future to never paint the input shaft retainer

AmpleUnicorn88

Hopefully after we do mine, this will reaffirm this solution.

86iroct5

glad it got fixed. not quite sure i really helped out a whole lot haha. sometimes the best thing to do is just to take it apart and put it back together