Cold Dark Shado

is there any mods that can put to a HO OHV MFI V6 2.8L?

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

This topic has been discussed many times. Pretty much all the mods you can do to the V8, you can do with the V6. Try running a search on "free mods" and you should come up with a whole bunch of useful info. Hope that helps.

KED85

If ya use SEARCH for FREE MODS or something like that ya score.
NO SUCH THING AS A HO OHV MFI V6
NOW THERE was A HO BUT
It was on Citation
It had a CARBURETOR
BACK IN EARLY 80's.
AND ALL THAT WAS
The engine had the same sized valves as ya got on a 1985 & above MPFI V6
The engine had the exact same cam as the 1985 & above MPFI V6
PLUS a 1/2 point compression more than the regular 2.8 V6.
All ya need to is increase spark to engine,
Increase air gogin into engine
to a point enlarge the V-6 exhaust.
Biggest restriction is the factory "Y" pipe.
Have made a smoother flowing "Y" pipe & ya gain back about 5+ HP.
Rest is common sense mods.
PS PLAN ON NOT WINNING EVERY RACE YA ENTER
Ya own an AMERICAN CLASSIC enjoy that fact.
Not ricebowl car ever gonna have that desirability.

Cold Dark Shado

the engine in my camaro came factory that said, HO OHV MFI V6

Soft Taco2

BWAHAHAHA!

maybe the Iroc, Z28, T/A or Formula is an "American Classic" but surely not some POS 2.8L.

Cold Dark Shado

Hey screw you buddy j/k

TomP

Welcome to the V6 forum! Some people get strange sometimes; just ignore people like that. If they are that unhappy with their car, you'd think they'd have gotten rid of it by now.

HO= High Output
OHV = Overhead valve; all the f-body motors are OHV, it's one of those "understood" descriptions. So you might want to leave it off; it's a good way to get made fun of

I assume you have an '85... '85 was when the 2.8 MPFI was considered "High Output". That's because it changed so much. In '85, the 2.8 got multiport fuel injection. It got a more agressive camshaft. It also got heads with larger intake/exhaust ports. The "High Output" description was dropped for '86, and it didn't come back, either.

There's a bunch of mods if you flip through the threads. Read the one "sticky" at the top; it's got a ton of information in it. But basically, if you just got the car, you should start with:

<a href="https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162251" target="newwin">The Major Tuneup Post! (click me)</a> That will do two things: 1, you'll get familar with your car. 2, you'll put the engine back in "factory" running condition by getting rid of the worn out parts. You should see some of these "original from 1987" distributor caps!

Next, put on the Dynomax catback, part #WLK-17493 from summitracing.com. Then you can work on making your own cold air intake; and then you can think about other mods. Intake & Exhaust are important because an engine is basically an air pump- the more air it can suck in, the more air it can push out- and the faster you go. For instance, it wouldn't make sense to put on roller tip rockers or an aftermarket cam if the engine's still being strangled by the intake (think of breathing in thru a drinking straw) and exhaust (think of exhaling thru that straw).

Cold Dark Shado

Thanx foir the Welcome

I got the car about 10 minutes ago and it does need a tune up and new exhaust so ill take a look at the major tune up link you gave me and go from there.

Thanx for the help :rockon:



I love that burnout smily!!

pontiacguy1

Welcome to the boards! It is always good to see someone new and excited about wanting to get under the hood of their F-body. Just don't start talking about adding a turbo or supercharger, and most people won't make fun of you or anything. Good luck with your mods.

Cold Dark Shado

Thanx

Right now i just want get like TomP said familiar with the car and get it run really good and then go from there. Ive dove into cars i had no idea about without thinkin before and i dont think i want to make that mistake again

KED85

What a childish response.

I was unaware of the Camaro's w/High Output on them in 1985.

Ive dove into cars i had no idea about without thinkin before and i dont think i want to make that mistake again

Ya will.
Hopefully this time it will be less expensive & more educational.

Cold Dark Shado

I know

This is my first camaro and i want to keep it around for a little while. Im just excited about gettin it and want to learn as much as i can about it, the right way. I know there will be mistakes made but thats the fun part about workin on cars, you live and you learn and for me its just a pure joy.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

the only HO V^ I remember reading about for the third gens was the carbed motors getting the bigger valve heads, which are the same as the mpfi heads.

pontiacguy1

Don't nitpick the new guy to death! The engine code for the 3.1 liter V6 in 1992 was LHO, which has HO, right there in the code!

Anyways, I hope that your camaro treats you as good as my Firebird has treated me. The little V6 has decent power for its size and age. It will also get you mid to upper 20s in MPG if it is in proper tune.

Enjoy it, man.

TomP

I don't think we're nitpicking anyone; the 2.8 MPFI in '85 was labeled as High Output from GM... Project85 said he had just heard of the '84 HO 2.8. I forgot there was one in '84 too. Were both (2.8 normal and 2.8 HO) offered in '84?

KED85

The High Output Name was ALWAYS in the beginning on the Citation X-11.
It was located on the hood buldge & if correct rear bumper.
I do recall/know the V8 305 CAMARO with the High Output name attached onto rear bumper.
A MPFI V-6 F Body with that name?
Show me a sticker or car picture or decal.
I'd enjoying seeing that.
I also recall seeing the "F41" decal badge on some early 80's 3rd Gen Camaro rear bumpers. too. It was a local car when I lived in Santa Monica.

If ya want I'll type the article from early 80's Hot Rod how to make a Camaro Z-26, using the Citation X-11 HO parts. THIS IS FOR CARB V-6 ONLY!
The 85-92 V6 MPFI already has those parts in the engine design.

Cold Dark Shado

I got the HO from the Carfax report i ran on it im not sure if there badges or not i didnt really look.

TomP

I've never seen an HO badge on any V6... it was always part of the engine code IIRC...

pontiacguy1

I'z just poking a few ribs, there. Don't get too nervous.

I do know that there were two different 2.8 V6s available in, I believe, 1984. The regular carbed 2.8 liter was 102 HP, A paltry 12 more than the 2.5 liter Iron Duke. They made an H.O. version that had the better cam, slightly higher compression, and the big valve heads, and It was rated at 120 HP, which is still lower than any MPFI 60 degree V6 ever produced. I believe that the H.O. engine was only available with a 5 speed tranny in that year as well, and I think it may have come with 3.73 gears in the rear. I may not be exactly right about the numbers, but they are close. There was, indeed, a 2.8 H.O. Package, but it was only while the 2.8 liter was an upgrade option over the base 2.5 liter 4 cylinder. As the 80's rolled on, the 305 TPI gave way to the 350 as the top engine, and the Iron Duke was cut from the low end of the lineup at the low end. I think that 1985 was the last year that the 2.5 was available. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

That's my $.02, guys.

Cold Dark Shado

pontiacguy1are you talkin about the 84 or 85s? My 85 has the 5 speed manual V6 so called"HO" 2.8l MPI. Are all the 2.8l 60*? would the 3.73 gearrs be in mine? i wouldnt be so lucky to guess its a posi either would i ???

Doward

3.42 open rear...

KED85

1986 was the last year for the four cylinder.
It was also cancelled during the 1986 model year run.

pontiacguy1

Hey Dark Shadow, sorry, but the only time that they had two V6 engines that were rated differently was during the carb era, which means pre-1985. 1985 was when Fuel injection was added to the 2.8 liter, and after that they was only one 2.8. Your car may say H.O. in the description, and it was rated higher than any available 2.8 from 1984, but it is exactly the same as every other 2.8 liter F-body engine produced from 1985-1989. This H.O. package i am talking about for 1984 was probably pretty rare, too.

I guess my memory isn't as good as it used to be. I could've sworn that the iron duke left in 1985, but if it was 1986, then I am sure that there were very few actually produced.

KED85

My source is the Camaro White Book.
Yes, they do make a Firebird White Book, also (I wish I had one!)
"The base 4-Cylinder engine for Sport Coupe models was listed as 151ci, 88hp, but this engine was on constraint, early, then cancelled, requiring an upgrade to the RPOLB8 V6 for Sport Coupes. The base V6 for Berlinetta Coupe models was 173ci, 135 HP. The base V8 for Z28 was 305ci, 155HP".

Search on ebay for
Camaro White Book
Firebird White Book
There is also a Corvette Black Book
Author is Michael Antonick

TomP

That's what I said before. The '85 2.8l was dubbed "High Output" by GM, only for 1985, and the HO descriptor was dropped after 1985. The '85 2.8 HO became a '86 2.8 "regular".

I -also- thought the 2.5 I-4 stopped in '85. That was the last year a 3.73/posi/disc axle was made by GM, too. The '86 runs of the I-4 must've been pretty darn scarce; and from that sentence out of that White Book, it seems so!

pontiacguy1

What I was trying to say was that the only year where there were 'regular' and 'H.O.' versions of the engine both available would be 1984. They were both still carbed, but the H.O. version had the newer ('85 and up) cam, big valve heads, and slightly higher compression.

My point is that, whatever the factory called the engine in 1985, it is the same as all the other F-body 2.8 liter engines until they changed to the 3.1 liter in 1990.

I think we were trying to say the same thing in a different way, or something like that.

TomP

(laughs) It's probably something as stupid as someone at GM forgot to take the "HO" off for all the '85 2.8's, and they realized their mistake in '86.

Cold Dark Shado

Well i put my 81 monte on Ebay

All that i get for it is goin in to the Camaro, but it still hurts to see her go.

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

H.O. v6.... believe it or not, I've actually heard that somewhere before, but for the life of me I can't remember where. If I find it I'll post it.

Hey Pontiacguy1, I see in your sig you have a 75 hp shot of N2O, tell me, does it make a noticeable difference when you hit it?

pontiacguy1

OHHHHHHH YEAHHHHH!!!

Most people think: 75 HP, that's not that much at all, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Well, when the original engine only has 140 HP, putting 75 more down makes a huge difference. In fact, it seems like more, since the car is lighter and the HP so low to begin with.

I have a 3.27 Borg Warner posi disc brake rear, and I can leave 10 or 12 feet of posi marks when I hit the nitro off the line.

I gotta go for now.

Camaro_nut

Just want to say that this guy has NO CLUE what
he's talking about.

I know a friend of mine that had a 1969 Camaro RS
with the straight 6 in it. So, that wouldn't be an
American Classic???

He also had a 1968 Mustang 2x2 with the 289.
That's not an American Classic???

Just wanted to make a point here. Now I'll shut up

Project: 85 2.8 bird

that's what I said Although I did get an HO V6 sticker/emblem thing from e-bay :rockon:

KED85

My Wife/Son has a 1968 Camaro Secretary Special (PS, AT/Console, Radio) with the Six Cylinder motor.
My Wife's first & only car & she paid $600 for it.
I've turned down $15K so far.
The 1968 is being given to my Son.
I met my Wife because of that car.
I assume her 1968 Camaro isn't a classic.
But my 1967 RS/SS 350 Convertible Camaro 4-speed is a classic, right?

Our 3rd Gen 6-ers are destined for collector status, in a lesser level than the Great Models, that is true, tho.

Dennis91RS

well at any rate i had a 85 Berlinetta it WAS called h.o by GM because in 85 GM switched from carb to multi port injection going from 102 hp i think to 135 hp

now the rear part alls you have to really is find a wrecked or junked 4 banger Fbody its a 7.5 inch 10 bolt 3.73 open rear just swap the whole rears and add the posi unit its not rocket sience and its not hard at all were do you think the rear went from my 85 Berlinetta when i wrecked it (HINT read the sign)

Camaro_nut

I think that 1968 Camaro that you have is just like the
one that my friend had, only 1969, not 1968. As far
as options, motor and trans., stuff like that.

I believe that ALL of these cars are classics! Just that
your 1967 RS/SS 350 Convertible Camaro 4-speed is
more valuable and probably more desirable than the
6 cylinder.

Just like jumping twenty or so years ahead ( to like
1987, 1988 and so on). Some people would look for
an IROC or 1991-1992 Z28 instead of the SC or RS
models. For obivious reasons like bigger motor,
four wheel disc brakes, more options, etc.

As these cars get older, I'm sure the V6s and the
5.0L TBIs will be just as collectable as the 305/350
TPIs. Of course, the IROCs/Z28s will be more valuable
and more desirable than the V6 SC/RS models.

I, on the other hand, don't really care about the
value of my car. It's getting ALL redone to a racing
status of a car. The V6 motor and trans. will be
out, and a ramjet 350 motor and new trans. will be
put in. When, is the BIG question though
I know that it's more of a custom job than a swap,
but that's the fun of it....

Hoping in the next few years.....:hail:

TomP

You think so? I think the only collectables will be the cars that were garaged since they were purchased, with 1,023 miles on them, that still have their new car smell from the factory.

pontiacguy1

I have done some studying on car values and collectibility, and the cheapest a car will generally get is during the 15 to 20 year old time frame. After 20 years, when the ones that have not been cared for have been crashed, junked, parted out, etc... the few that remain will begin to gain in value. Look at second generation camaros and firebirds... 8 to 10 years ago, I could go to any junkyard and find lots of them. Now, you don't find very many at all. Also, the price that one in good shape is bringing has gone up by about 50% in the last four or five years. This is because they are now about 25 years old, and are becoming much more rare since most of the ones that have been abused and ragged out are either no longer running or no longer exist.

The same thing will happen with our third gens. Right now, you can go to a junkyard and find a bunch of them for parts. In another 6 or 7 years, they will become more and more rare both on the roads and in the yards. The ones that are in good shape will then begin to increase in value again.

Of course, the high end models will begin to get more valuable first: Anniversary Editions, GTAs,IROCs, Formula 350s and Z28s. The others will slowly but surely gain in value, too. That's why I bought my 15th anniversary edition cars now... I got all the parts out of junkyards, and they were as cheap as they were going to get. I don't expect them to command anywhere near the price of a TTA, but they will only be getting more expensive in the future.

Camaro_nut

Well ,yeah. Those will be collectable and WAY more
valuable than ones with 20K or even 200K on them.

BUT, even the ones that have been driven for a long
time, with most original parts, good interior/exterior,
will have some collectability!

Look on Ebay, for example, a 1969 Camaro with
like 70 or 80K miles on it will still be collectable.
Lots of people buying those.

Same as a 1969 Camaro with only 2K original miles
on it, just way more valuable.

There was ( or maybe still is) a few 1992 Camaros
that have been gargaged with temp. control for
all these years, and have only 2K miles on them.
They are on Ebay, have the Anniversary package,
ones a 5.7 , the other a 3.1. Both I think are white
and orange with the "heritage" package.
They are asking like a lot more than original retail
value. That's because they never really got driven.
And of course, are anniversary with heritage package.

Hope this makes sense... anyways...that's what I
think. :lala:

82-T/A [Work]

Eh... KED, I gotta disagree...

In 1985 Pontiac released the HO MPFI 2.8 on the Fiero. In comparisson to the regular MPFI 2.8 found in the Camaro/Firebird, the Fiero 2.8 had slightly larger valves (same size as the cast iron 3.4 heads), a larger throttle body, and 15 pound injectors as apposed to the f-bodies 13lb injectors.

A couple of other cars got that too... Cadillac Cimmeron, and an Oldsmobile (forgot which one).

KED85

I'm not a Fiero know it all
I do have the Car Craft report on the 1988 Fiero, tho and several other Popular Hot Rodding & Hot Rod Rod articles on the Fiero (from 1984-1988).
I don't recall any Fiero HO, even on the one I test drove back in the 80's (new).
I know of
2M4
2M6
GT
Indy version
Formula
WS6 Fiero (?)
That said.
ALL 60* MPFI VALVES ARE IDENTICAL IN SIZE,
2.8/3.1/3.4 including FWD.
ONLY SMALLER SIZED VALVES were on the carb'd S-10 truck or the carb'd (RWD or FWD) 60* engines. I am not sure of size of valves of the TBI S-10 Blazer series.
Except the HO engine of the Citation X11, carb version has the larger valves, that were eventually used on the MPFI series of 60* engine.
Want me to quote the Hot Rod article?
I'll do it anyway.
Hot Rod Feb 1983 author Pat Ganahl
Pgs 57-61
Article name is
"Z26. What's the difference between a V-6 & a Z-28? About $2100."
I am quoting the shadow box on page 60,
Engine Mods.
Forgive if I hit a typo, my sprained shoulder is acting up!
"Since McDonald decided to use Chevy parts for a mechanical mods, that made decisions easy when it came to pepping up the 2.8. THE ONLY PERFORMANCE PARTS NOW AVAILABLE for this motor from the factory (or anywhere else for that matter) are those in the HO-660 package used on 1981 & later X-11 Citations. They add 20HP to the 171 cid mill which works out to a 17% increasse.
The complete HO-660 package includes slightly higher compression pistons (about 1/2 point), 1/8" inch larger I & E valves, heads w/enlarged valve seats & pockets, a cam w/20* longer duration & .410 lift & a lower restriction dual outlet muffler.
Buying all of these ingredients over the counter would cost a small fortune. Howerever, the camshaft & the valves are the heart of the package & they are very affordable.
To install the larger valves in the stock heads, have a good high performance head shop enlarge the valves seats & pockets accordingly (OTHER THAN THIS CHANGE THE HO HEADS ARE IDENTICAL TO THE PRODUCTION UNITS). While he was having the head work done, McDonald also had the heads milled .030-inch, which more than compensates for the compression difference between the stock and HO Pistons (the HO pistons have .020-inch taller deck height).
Finally, the X-11 low restriction exhaust is sold only as a complete system, but the only usable part on the Camaro is the muffler. So to reduce backpressure as bit & get a more meaningful exhaust note, we recommend having a muffler shop install a dual outlet replacement type muffler and fabricate a pair of exhaust tips to fit the Camaro.
Other than modifying the HEADS TO ACCEPT THE LARGER VALVES, installation of the HO-660 components is a striaght shop manual procedure, so we won't cover it in detail here. Just be sure to reconnect all ahoses, wires & grounds for the computer system snugly & correctly (there's a "Map" on the fan shroud for reference)."

That's proof by me.
I'd enjoying hearing about the HO Fiero.
Yes this article was written before the Fiero was introduced to the public in Fall of 1983.
And all first year Fieros are Four Cylinders.
Am I correct that the Fiero was upgraded to V-6 in fall of 1984, as a 1985 model year car? Or was it in 1985 as a 1986 model year car?

82-T/A [Work]

Yeah...

WS6 was merely an option on all Fieros, but it regularly came on the SE Fieros of the first year. It was then available after that, only on the GT models. The first Fiero came only with the 2.5 liter Iron Duke. The first year had problems with connecting rods (cheap 3-rd party components) they would crack and that's what would cause the motor to explode (only the 4 cyl ones). The 84 year was the best model to modify for performace as far as the 4 cyl went. They offered aftermarket Holley Intake and TBI throttle body. They did this because basically the 84 was the same motor as the Super Duty-4. They have different variations of the SD-4. Everything from a completely redesigned block, to a simple bolt on SD-4 head onto a stock motor.

In 1985, the throttle body changed to a slightly different model (smaller) and the motor got roller lifters. The engine was then renamed the "TECH-4". This motor put out about the exact same amount of power, even with the new tbi. The old TBI unit was the same TBI unit you found on the Cross-Fire Injected Corvettes and F-bodies. Same unit, except only one of them. The 86 year remained completely the same. Then in 1987, they revised the engine yet again with a DIS ignition system, and a torsional damper for the accessory belt. In 1988, the motor changed yet again, and this time had a different (non rebuildable) oil pump, but better oiling system.


As for the V6 motor, the first year it was released was for the 1985 model year. It was released as the 2.8 HO MPFI (says it in the car manual). The RPO code for this motor was "L44" (note, different than the regular LB8 V6 motor). This motor came stock with all the things I mentioned before: 15lb fuel injectors, larger throttle body, different intake plenum (not necessarily larger), etc. I mean... the difference isn't major, we're talking about the difference between about ~10 horsepower here.
The factory 2.8 Camaro engine put out only 135hp and 160lbs of torque. The Fiero V6 put out 140hp, and 170lbs of torque.
The difference between the heads are that the original 2.8 heads on all the other cars were EVER so slightly smaller. The heads on the 2.8 Fiero, and all 3.1 and 3.4 cast iron heads (Gen1) were slightly larger. Not significantly, but they were.
Anyway, the V6 Fiero uses a speed density system rather than the MAF system that you guys use.

The motor remained completely the same until 1987 when they changed the computer ECM and the entire wiring harness of the motor to one that's slightly more efficient (for emissions purposes). The motor LOST 5 horsepower. It then put out 135hp and 170lbs of torque (still 10 more lbs of torque than the 2.8 Camaro).
Then, the next year, the 88 motor became neutrally balanced, and also got the smaller newer style alternator, and the better oiling system. The 88 was a great car.

But... other than that, the motors are pretty much identical. It's sort of a moot point though, because if someone's looking for more power from their V6, they're not going to get very much by cannabolizing parts from a Fiero V6. There are much better avenues.


I just completely rebuilt my V6 this winter.. I haven't gotten it started yet, but I'm expecting somewhere in the neighborhood of 195-200 horsepower.

82-T/A [Work]

You know what though? I gotta be honest, I love the V6/60. It really is a GREAT motor. It's a decent little work horse. It's like.. well.. it's hard to explain, but it's a very reliable motor when built correctly. It has excellent balance, it's smooth running, sounds great... I just wish they made the different generations a little bit more interchangeable.

pontiacguy1

I hear what you are saying about the V6 60* engine. I like them too. Not the most powerful engines out there, but if our cars were the size of a Honda (or a Fiero) we would probably think that they were really strong. They have pretty decent output for their size, especially considering their vintage.

If you take care of them, the will last a long time, too. My dad has a 1991 TBI 2.8 V6 in a GMC Sonoma, and it now has 325K miles on it (that is NOT a typo!). I have never had the valve covers off of it, and it uses a pint of oil between 5k mile oil changes.

I know what you are saying about the different generation V6s, but since your car has basically a FWD engine in the back, that gives you a lot more options than we have on our cars. I think that one way to build a really unique Fiero would be to put a Quad 4 H.O. engine in there, and of course do some mods to it. I hear that people can get 250+ HP out of that engine fairly easily because it breathes so well. If a stock one feels pretty good in a Grand Am, I can't imagine what one with an additional 50 HP would feel like in a Fiero. It would also be light and get great fuel mileage!