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Old 05-13-2005, 04:04 PM   #1
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Importance of Charcoal canister?

So how important is it really? Just a gm add on for higher emission standards, or something that is really necessary for the vehicles drivablility and saftey?

The way I see the routing...a line comes from the fuel system and goes to the canister....then there are vacuums that run back to the TB and the PCV system, which draw the air back to the intake

Cause I'm just sick of vacuum lines everywhere! Thinking I can trim it down with the new TB and intake! give the charcoal filter the ole heave ho!
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:01 PM   #2
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if you fill your tank very full then the excess gas that vents out and goes to the charcoal canister, you could have that line goto the fender and dump on the ground I beleive, then block the vacuum lines. Only thing I see wrong with it is you could potentially waste gas...
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:10 PM   #3
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I plugged it and purchased a vented gas cap.
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:52 PM   #4
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You need one! Otherwise, dogs will get into your charcoal and tear up the bag, scattering Kingsford briquettes all over the backyard.
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Old 05-14-2005, 01:21 AM   #5
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will it do anything to remove it???? like say.....make the car...exlpode????
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Old 05-14-2005, 05:18 AM   #6
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vented gascap why has no one ever thought of that before?!?!?

next mod=loosing that stupid can



i'll have been wishing i could loose that thing since i built my spiffy intake. so what do we do with all the vaccume lines?
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Old 05-14-2005, 09:44 AM   #7
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I was not sure if teh system require suction form the TB to even vent the line from the gas tank properly.

I can't use a vented gas cap cause I have the filler neck in the rear cargo comaprtment (shaved gas filler)

Guess I will leave the factory line open to the atmosphere then. I just did not want to start a fire in the engine bay with the free release of gas vapors.

Does the thing really ever have gas go thru that line? Thought just vapors? Though they are the dangerous thing!

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Old 05-14-2005, 12:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by redraif
Guess I will leave the factory line open to the atmosphere then. I just did not want to start a fire in the engine bay with the free release of gas vapors.
This is not a good idea. *REALLY* not a good idea. ThirdGen.Org, its owner, administrators, moderators, sponsors, members, members' pets, or anyone else remotely related to ThirdGen.Org, are not responsible for property damage, physical injury, or death resulting from the bypass of the evaporative emissions control system charcoal canister.

That being said, if you're going to do it, don't leave it open to atmosphere. Doing so would immediately result in gas tank overfill because the air pocket at the top of the tank which normally allows for expansion room and such would no longer be sealed. Filling at the pumps would almost always result in large quanities of gasoline exiting at the front of the vehicle at that line, resulting in serious damage to your front left tire, and creating a very real possibility of fire and/or explosion.
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Old 05-14-2005, 03:44 PM   #9
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is'nt the charcol canister essentialy open to atmosphere anyway? i mean air goes through some charcole and then leaves right? how would that be different from an open line?

also. if you are going to leave it open to atmosphere i would segust getting a one way valve (to act as a restrictor in the vent) and cut the line off near the rear of the car, and place this vent on it. this will do two things. 1. gas will have a shorter distance to go before it starts dumping out. 2. it probably won't start dumping out.

another question. if i get a vented gascap, and then block off the line. would i have aby problems? not an open line, a closed line.
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Old 05-14-2005, 04:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by TechSmurf
This is not a good idea. *REALLY* not a good idea. ThirdGen.Org, its owner, administrators, moderators, sponsors, members, members' pets, or anyone else remotely related to ThirdGen.Org, are not responsible for property damage, physical injury, or death resulting from the bypass of the evaporative emissions control system charcoal canister.

That being said, if you're going to do it, don't leave it open to atmosphere. Doing so would immediately result in gas tank overfill because the air pocket at the top of the tank which normally allows for expansion room and such would no longer be sealed. Filling at the pumps would almost always result in large quanities of gasoline exiting at the front of the vehicle at that line, resulting in serious damage to your front left tire, and creating a very real possibility of fire and/or explosion.
This is exactly why I asked! MAnuel is very vague about the actual purpose of this unit!

I know older cars don't have them! The idiots who replaced the duallys (1990) motor back 5 years ago broke all the lines leaving the canister and just left them open...

Do you think leaving the canister attached and the fuel line going to it, but not running the lines from the top of the canister back to the intake would cause a prob? I actually have the canister hidden well I just can't stand the vacuum lines running all over the place! Or are the lines running back to the TB what seals the system? the reason I ask is the 4th gens have theirs at the rear of the car, so i was told... but I do't want to have to run the lines back to the front of the car!

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Old 05-14-2005, 09:27 PM   #11
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I run a vented gas cap but not cause its vented.

I run it cause it has a built in flapper hole so I never need to remove the gas cap to get gas.

And id ditch the canister crap too. Its worn out by now anyways / the charcoal in it, is not active anymore. Its done soaked up all it can years ago.
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Old 05-15-2005, 02:51 AM   #12
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The charcoal can is not meant to simply absorb the vapor, but to store it. The can is not "open to atmosphere" unless the engine is running and the ECU is commanding an EECS purge, at which point a solenoid opens a vacuum line from the EECS canister to the throttle body and purges the canister of fuel vapor. The existence of the EECS in no way affects vehicle peformance and does considerable good to the atmosphere by seriously reducing the hydrocarbon emissions of your vehicle. If at all possible, leave it alone.

The only reason mine came out of my '88 is due to a malfunction which resulted in the canister taking on liquid fuel and overflowing, dumping a half gallon or so of gas on the ground... the only reason mine hasn't gone back in is I do need a new canister thanks to damages from the emergency removal of the existing canister which was full of raw gas, and I haven't gotten my hands on one yet. The malfunction was later found to be the result of an improperly seated sending unit gasket, which compromised the sealed airspace at the top of the tank and allowed serious overfilling. These gas tanks are designed to be pressurized. Leaving the evap line open to air would compromise the sealed airspace of the tank in the same way as the improperly seated gasket.

I find it very sad so many people are so quick to offer advice on something they obviously don't understand...
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Old 05-15-2005, 03:46 AM   #13
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And I wonder how such an Ahole got to be a MOD???
Learn some tact...
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Old 05-15-2005, 05:34 AM   #14
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He's not being an AHOLE. He's just taking a concern of some possibly improper advice given here, which could cause an accident.

It's always risky to start playing with systems related to fuel. If you're not sure about something, then maybe it's better left unsaid.

And I'm not saying who's necessarily right or wrong here, I haven't studied the EFES in depth, so....
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Old 05-15-2005, 08:48 AM   #15
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Very good explanation as to how the system is supposed to function and why it is there. Too many people jump on the "rip the crap out" bandwagon.

Funny how people bitch about "computer crap" when the fact is they don't understand how it works, but then again, these are the same folks who can't tune a carburettor other than idle mixture adjustments, and then return it to the store when it doesn't work correctly.

Raif, in your case I understand the desire to clean up the engine bay, and why a vented cap won't work for you. I guess you have emissions testing where you are as well- were I you I'd try and re route things as sanitarily as I could.
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Old 05-15-2005, 03:38 PM   #16
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Is the solenoid you speak of Techsmurf in the TB or the top of the canister itself?

If its all contained in the canister, then I guess I will have to add some more vacuum lines out the rear of the intake & pumb the mess thru my wiper cowl area. Pop a hole in thru the fire wall (like the wiper fluid tube) into the wiper cowl cavern...run down the cowl to the exit behind the pass fender and over and to the front where the canister is now seated under its stock location in the nose of the car out of site!

Thanks for the info...that is why I ask first and do later.
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Old 05-15-2005, 06:57 PM   #17
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so a vented gascap and sealed charcole canister line is a bad idea?

if i do need to keep my charcole canister how do i replace the charcole in it?
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
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And I wonder how such an Ahole got to be a MOD???
Learn some tact...
Because I'm capable of determining what is and isn't proper to say in public... or perhaps because I'm not a repeat-offending troublemaker.. *shrug*
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Old 05-16-2005, 02:03 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by redraif
Is the solenoid you speak of Techsmurf in the TB or the top of the canister itself?
Depending on what version of the system you have, it's in the canister or inline with the vacuum line.
Quote:
Originally posted by Xophertony
so a vented gascap and sealed charcole canister line is a bad idea?

if i do need to keep my charcole canister how do i replace the charcole in it?
So long as the line is sealed, removal shouldn't be catastrauphic. Mine's set up with the line sealed and without a vented gas cap, relying on the tank pressure relief vent for.. well.. pressure relief. Replacement of the charcoal element is usually accomplished by canister replacement, iirc, though it is not a normal replacement part.
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Old 05-16-2005, 04:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by TechSmurf
relying on the tank pressure relief vent for.. well.. pressure relief.
i was under the impression that valve only allowed air to flow into the tank. not out of it. is that incorrect?
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Old 05-16-2005, 09:27 AM   #21
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Re: Importance of Charcoal canister?

Quote:
Originally posted by redraif
Cause I'm just sick of vacuum lines everywhere! Thinking I can trim it down with the new TB and intake! give the charcoal filter the ole heave ho!
That's the only reason? Well, you could move it and hide it... probably right under one of the battery trays. Or, just paint it red (joking)!
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Old 05-16-2005, 10:38 AM   #22
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Re: Re: Importance of Charcoal canister?

Quote:
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That's the only reason? Well, you could move it and hide it... probably right under one of the battery trays. Or, just paint it red (joking)!
It is under the pass side battery tray, just have vacuum lines running all over! Was trying to simplify things with the new custom intake!
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Old 05-16-2005, 10:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by TechSmurf
Depending on what version of the system you have, it's in the canister or inline with the vacuum line.
Car is an 87...I don't remember anything in line with my vacuum lines...except the egr solenoid, though that is strictly egr right!? Though I don't remember there being a electronic anything on my canister either...to my knowledge it just had some valves on top, but nothing i would think would tell it to open or close them controlled by the computer. Could it be a pressure thing. When too much pressure in canister it opens the relief valve to the vacuum lines which run to the tb and suck up the excess vapors?
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:14 AM   #24
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my 86 has an electrical connection on the top of the canister and i believe that would be the purge solenoid
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:19 AM   #25
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Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

I see the valve now...just off the charcoal canister! But I still dont remember an electrical conection to control a purge function!

86bluebird...do you see any wiring to yours?

Sucks my car is still at the exhaust shop or I would run out and take a look see!
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:44 AM   #26
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yeah. there is a red connector on the top of the canister. this pic is rather large that i took of the intake i built so it will take time to load and you can see the canister with the red connector on it.

Intake
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xophertony
i was under the impression that valve only allowed air to flow into the tank. not out of it. is that incorrect?
If that's the case, I've been running mine at infinite pressure for quite some time... I recall it being labelled as a pressure relief in a book somewhere though.
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Old 05-16-2005, 05:28 PM   #28
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LOL, 86BLUEBIRD beat me to it, but here's another shot-
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Old 05-16-2005, 05:33 PM   #29
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I SEE said the blind man!

Ok it has been so long since I looked at the thing! Ok so then I should be able to move the vacuum lines to the back and not hurt anything!
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Old 05-17-2005, 02:04 AM   #30
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well i twould not be infanite pressure, i mean, the tank would depressurise when you opened the gas cap...

well this seals it. i am now verry strongly considering removing the charcol canister. i will first get a vented gascap. i will also need to know what lines to route where. witch of the vac lines do i leave open and witch to close. what about the tb line?
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Old 05-17-2005, 02:39 AM   #31
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I might have missed something but whats the point of removing it?


if it isn't broken your not causing any harm to the motor, your not causing any performance loss by it, it's really not doing anything bad at all other then keeping gas vapors out of the air.
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Old 05-17-2005, 03:25 AM   #32
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redraif is a show car... I'm amazed it's there at all..
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Old 05-17-2005, 09:01 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by rx7speed
I might have missed something but whats the point of removing it?


if it isn't broken your not causing any harm to the motor, your not causing any performance loss by it, it's really not doing anything bad at all other then keeping gas vapors out of the air.
Just to clean up the mess of vaccum hoses...but it will only be removed if it can be done safely. The canister is hidden now, so its not the issue so much as all the RED vaccum hoses running to it. I'd like to reroute all the hoses in a cleaner manner, hiding them where possible, and eliminate as many as can be without hurting anything . Of course, changing to black hoses would help them disappear, but someone doesn't like that idea !

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Old 05-17-2005, 09:49 AM   #34
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Think about it - did cars of the 50s, 60s or 70s have that thing? No. Do tractors have it? No. Does your lawn mower have it? NO It's a 80's era mandated polution device that does NOTHING as far as the engine running good or running safely.


Rip that ****in thing out and dont look back. And while your at it rip the rest of your emissions junk off and save yourself some weight.
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Old 05-17-2005, 10:15 AM   #35
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I can only suggest why not use some zip coverings on the hoses? Meaning that hose with the slit down middle.
Besides those charcoal cannister hoses are so fragile due to the vapors they have absorbed over the miles and years.
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Old 05-17-2005, 10:41 AM   #36
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Know what else would be hot?

Drill a few small holes in the passenger side frame rail and run the hoses thru the framerail to the canister.

In fact... hm... I bet you could use brake tubing instead of hose; then you could bend it and snake it underneath the motor completely.
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Old 05-17-2005, 12:32 PM   #37
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well I figure if I just plumb the new intake with the vaccum leads out the back, then I can have a short visable hose maybe 4 inches max and run it stragight into the firewall then you will never see it again...everything is up under the cowl , fenders, & the car in the nose...

Just the thought of drilling that nice new intake for more vacuum lines...just breaks your heart!

Now one of those TB lines is tied into the piping that is part of teh pcv system. That group of lines is also a mess. It runs from the pvc...to the base of the intake, to the charcoal canister, to the tb... the big pipe that is to the left as you are looking at the TB form the front of the car. on passenger side! Going to ahve to leave that intact, but prettier too!

FUN FUN!
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Old 05-17-2005, 12:47 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by redraif

Now one of those TB lines is tied into the piping that is part of teh pcv system. That group of lines is also a mess. It runs from the pvc...to the base of the intake, to the charcoal canister, to the tb... the big pipe that is to the left as you are looking at the TB form the front of the car. on passenger side! Going to ahve to leave that intact, but prettier too!
If you prefer to get rid of that dumb looking PCV line, I'd be more than willing to trade you mine for yours. I have the one from the 3.1 that gets rid of that huge plastic hose thing and runs straight from the PCV valve to the fitting on the back of the intake manifold. I am trying to get my emissions system back to the way it originally was with that big black hose attached to the throttle body. Right now, I have the rubber TB end with a piece of fuel hose and a bolt stuck in it to plug up that huge hole left by that hose and want to get rid of the bolt. This hose changes the basic hose routing a lot because of the omission of the extra PCV line, but it can be done with just the T-fitting on the back of the stock intake plenum for all of the larger lines.
I can get you a pic if you are interested.

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Old 05-17-2005, 01:35 PM   #39
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yes a pic would be nice...I think I follow you, but I would rather be sure!

So your pcv runs direct from the valve cover on the drivers side to the hole in the base of the intake manifold?

Only problem with trading you is that my stock one got burned in an engine fire 3 years ago! The dealer could not find the stock one for my car. I actually have a camaro one and the lines are routed differently! May not do you any good! I had a heck of a time getting everything some waht routed right. Hence me wanting to simplfy everything!
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Old 05-17-2005, 02:05 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by mdricken
Think about it - did cars of the 50s, 60s or 70s have that thing? No. Do tractors have it? No. Does your lawn mower have it? NO It's a 80's era mandated polution device that does NOTHING as far as the engine running good or running safely.


Rip that ****in thing out and dont look back. And while your at it rip the rest of your emissions junk off and save yourself some weight.
hey I've had a few cars from the 70's that had those canisters
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Old 05-18-2005, 05:58 PM   #41
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As long as it has the big hose I don't really mind what it looks like. I don't run any of the vacuum operated components on the driver's side anymore (cruise control, HVAC is rerouted to passenger side, and the vacuum tank ball) so the majority of my large diameter lines are run off of the tee in the back of the upper plenum. I'll see if I can't find any batteries for my dig cam and get some. I warn you, the pics aren't all that great from that thing though...
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Old 05-18-2005, 06:25 PM   #42
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I hope these don't come out outrageously big like they have in the past...

Pic of hose routing at charcoal can (yes, this is right, at least according to my ZCD emissions hose routing sticker). The single line coming in at the left side is off of the vacuum tee in the back of the plenum. You might excuse the mess, I've been wetsanding everything for about a month straight now...
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Old 05-18-2005, 06:26 PM   #43
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My digital is not so hot either! I will get some pics of mine when we take the car apart for head work! The good one is missing the blasted chips!
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Old 05-18-2005, 06:28 PM   #44
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And the hose I mentioned is in the green box:
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Old 05-18-2005, 06:31 PM   #45
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And this is how the hose and the delete of the entire driver's side vacuum system affects the rest. I have a bolt in the lower port of the EGR solenoid connector because I removed the solenoid for testing and replacement. The orange-like tee is for the EGR, and the white one runs the HVAC system. The line running out the left side is for the smaller diameter hoses on the charcoal can:
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Old 05-28-2005, 06:05 AM   #46
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well, pulled the sucker out today. do not yet have vented gascap so i left the gascap off. i pluged all the vaccume lines with screws. also discovered the cause of the gasoline smell my car has been producing latley. the fuel vent line going to the evap can was broken. i replaced it and put a monster lag bolt in the end of it.
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Old 05-29-2005, 07:56 PM   #47
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Well let us know what happens after you drive it and fill up a few times! Be curious to know!
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Old 05-30-2005, 04:55 PM   #48
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First off hello.

Ok, about the ugly can. I once removed it back when i had a fbody. I didnt get a vented gas cap. I also didnt plug the line. I drove the car for years with no fires or problems at all. I have seen others who have put a small filter on the line also.

But i kinda agree with Tech. Be safe with whatever you do.
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:02 AM   #49
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so far the only noticable difference is that my car no longer reaks of fuel.
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Old 06-10-2005, 03:14 AM   #50
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ok. filled up. car again reaks of fuel. not leaking out vent line. i don't know whats up. i need a new tank i think. but they are like 400$
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