Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

random clutch question for you guys, trying to figure out why the clutch is slipping. now the pedal has always been feather soft to push in, it has a new slave on it but the master i have no idea how old it is. it has been bleed out a few times but no real diffrence in clutch feel and of course it slips at high rpms something else it actually did with a non boosted engine a few times. i dont smell the clutch burning at all so im wondering if maybe its just not fully engageing for some reason. the clutch is pretty new and honestly shouldnt slip that easy

also the clutch engages way high on the pedal

Fallen2603

Hmmm...I'm going to ask some questions, and, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just want to know the answers to them:

Did you replace the throwout bearing?
Pilot bushing?
Pressure plate?
When was the last time you changed the ATF in the T5?
How sure are you that the rear diff is still spinning freely?

I'd suggest replacing the master cylinder and seeing where that takes you, but I'd still like to know the answers to these questions.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

Replaced bearing and bushing when motor went in, clutch and pressure plate are used but only briefly on old motor.

ATF is new enough, it shifts fine

diff spins I have the burn out marks to prove that lol has a pretty new slp posi unit in it

master is the only part on there from when I did conversion so it is the oldest part, dunno if that would cause a soft peddle or slippage though

deadbird

The T-5 was a conversion to Pills car It was originally an auto.

The pilot is new due to it never having one, plus, it's a new motor/crank. A pilot wouldn't make the clutch slip anyways, just have awful clutch hop. It has no bearing on how the diaphragm grabs the friction disc as far as pressure is concerned

Pressure plate, throwout and disc all come new with a RAM clutch setup.

The T-5 is gear to gear, fluid doesn't make a difference. There is no fluid pressure to maintain in a manual like there is with an auto.
Fluid is for lubrication only.

The diaphragm dictates pressure on the disc and clutch pedal feel. The master cylinder only transfers fluid pressure to the the slave to disengage the clutch. It's basically the same way the brakes work.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Is there anyway oil is getting on the clutch disk? To me it sounds like your pressure plate is just to soft, you will probably have to invest into a more performance clutch setup now unfortunately. Btw all my clutches engaged high on the pedal, think it's part of owning a hydraulic setup.

deadbird

That's the odd part of his. I have the same RAM clutch (obvioulsy for a v8 though) in my beater. His feels nothing like mine and mine catches basically in the middle of clutch travel.

My 'bird has a centerforce and is soft, like Pills but, it still catches (fully engaged) at the center of pedal travel.

Oil could be an ssue but, anytime I've had that issue, it causes clutch hop (or, shudder) unless you just slip it untill it get hot (like smell the clutch hot).

The RAM clutch is advertised (in Summit) as being 30% more holding power over stock.

When his clutch was first installed, like mine, it wouldn't fully disengage and the clutch would grab just off the floor. Mine has since moved to center of pedal travel and his is now at the top.

Just looking at it wrong will start to slip it.

My thoughts lead towards the pressure plate bolts potentially backing out (causing the lack of full pressure) or, uneven tightening causing some of the diaphragm fingers to have broken.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Only experience with Ram clutches I have is the one my brother had installed in his F250 truck, it engaged super high and had very little play with it. Overall it was a POS and had to change it out year later.

Fallen2603

I was just throwing stuff out there. I don't know much about manual's...I just love/abuse them.

deadbird

I certainly won't contest that statement. If it weren't for the RAM being as cheap as OEM, I'd have went with a Hayes. It's tough to justify spending the $$ on a car you really don't care about though.

Mine currently has almost 60kmi on it and I don't treat is well at all (I've intentionally tried to burn it up).

Pills only has 2-3kmi on his clutch, at best.

Understandable and valid questions, too.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Yeah that does suck, I know how that feels putting on a new clutch and not having it work proper. One time my pressure plate was not up to spec and I did all the run around changing everything else on the system.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

i guess the only way to find out is going to be to take it apart and inspect it, maybe in a week or so when i can afford the rent on a certain persons garage ill put it back on the stands and give it a look, ive got a few other things i need to do anyways.

i am gonna need a stronger clutch and pressure plate...but i really dont think i should be blowing through the one i have on there now so easy it really is practically new

JuggaloRon

this may be a stupid question, but is there a chance that the plate was installed backwards, or that the flywheel isn't surfaced right? my act clutchs always released at the top of the pedal. i never had to lay into them. just had to toe tap. only other thing i can suggest is reverse bleeding lines. good luck.

project89

iTrader: (1)

was the lywheel new or a resuraced unit ???

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

it was resurfaced correctly

deadbird

Most of the time, the friction disc can not be installed incorrectly as it will only fit one way against the flywheel. Generally only a minor amount of material is taken off to resurface a flywheel unless, it is warped.

Suggestions from aa1car.com include:
"If a newly installed clutch is slipping, the most likely causes would be:

* Oil or grease contamination;
* Incorrect release system adjustment;
* A defective cable adjuster;
* A blocked clutch master cylinder port or binding slave cylinder;
* A misaligned or improperly installed release bearing; or
* Improper flywheel machining of a step or cup flywheel."

I'd (personally) start with a bolt inspection on the pressure plate (least amount of disassembly) and go from there.

Oil would certainly be a potential problem as well... the problem did get worse over the course of the test/tune period.


I'd still suggest the metal slave cyl from AZ, Part Number: 10380, $36, just for some piece of mind.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

hey deadbird...just for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca9Gu...eature=related



yeah i think i will get that slave cylinder, who knows maybe mine is defective and it wouldnt hurt to have a better one on there for 36 bucks.

in the next few days im going to send some un-used parts back and get the couplers and exhaust flanges that i need. as well as some gaskets to fix that annoying freaking exhaust leak and fix those couple oil leaks. then ill begin tracking down the clutch problem. im pretty sure my inspection cover will come off no problem

project89

iTrader: (1)

the only other thing i can think o would be i the clutch was previously installed and the lywheel is not bolted back onto the lywheel in the same orentation it was orginally.

i know when u replace a clutch disk only they say to mark the presure plate to the flywheel so it goes back on lined up the same.

just a thought


anyways the only thing i found wierd was even though the clutch slips u dont smell the clutch burning though steve said he did smell it burning up the one time when he tried to get on it pretty good

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

its gonna take some searching to figure out i have a feeling, problem is i really never have reved my car up to the levels we were at when it started to slip so i really have no idea when the problem started. it could have been like that since i did the conversion i dont really know.

i took it out last night...was running a bit rich, pretty much stayed under 14.2 but ran pretty decent, i never got it up to where it slips though. was just a cruise around trip

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah i gota type that stu up or u so u can do some ine tiunning 14.2 isnt bad or cruising though just a tad on the rich side

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

it was more in the 13s most of the time.. it was real hesitant to have any gas given to it right when it started, i had to let it idle a bit before it acted normal.

im sure that exhaust leak is the problem with the numbers being off

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

Anyone know where to get allan head bolts to fit the headers? maybe make things a little easier

project89

iTrader: (1)

google fastenall or the bolts

yeah its going to be picky aboutirst startup cause o the cold start enrichments are only a best quess at this point. i never really did spend any time tunning those.once u get the clutch issue sorted out i can help u get that tuned or u can just data log the startup and send me the datalogs and i can send u back a new tune ile with the proper settings or cold start. also yes that ex leak on the header will deinatly skew the ar readings.

13 afrs? idling or 13 afrs cruising? it will dip into the low 13,s at the onset o boost and get into the high 11's in the uper boost range

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

it was high 13s low 14s at idle... cruise was around 14s

next time i start it up ill datalog it, i was watching the afr gauge and it was spikeing while it was cold up into the 16s and i saw an 18 when i gave it a bit of gas

remember what the size was on those bolts...they have some low profile allan bolts that would work awesome i think

project89

iTrader: (1)

not o hand i dont rember the size i wanna say 10x1.5mm but im not sure on that

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

well a little update..

we replaced the clutch slave and it seems to move more freely and tightened down the bolts that hold the pedals to the fire wall(as they were nowhere near tight enough) however still slipping at high rpms. there was no oil contamination on the clutch either. so other than that clutch just not holding the power i dont really have any other ideas

fixed all the small oil leaks that there were and ran the oil feed line for the turbo in a less noticeable spot.

next up as soon as the parts get here the whole turbo setup is coming back off to fix exhuast leaks and to sandblast all the hot side and re coat it with Techlines Colorgaurd Aluminum, just look much better i dont really car for the straight black. also the flanges are going on the dowpipe so that it can be removed at will.

radiator overlow bottle is going in as well

i think that about covers it for now...ill shoot some pictures as time permits. next time it fires up it will be a totally diffrent car lol

the clutch problem(assuming that it is the clutch itself) will have to wait for awhile till money permits, spec clutch is in the future though

project89

iTrader: (1)

pic of the ds header

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

just a little math to show why we think the clutch isnt keeping up

3.4L is 160hp and 180tq iirc and the ram clutch holds 30% more than a stock clutch

so the clutch should hold at the least 208hp and 234 tq at the flywheel, which by all guesses im putting out WAAAAYYYY more than what that clutch would be rated for. id almost be willing to bet my motor with the work done to it is just under what the clutch will hold. itll hold at a couple pounds of boost but soon as it gets to 5 or more psi and 4500-5000rpms it wants no part of it and slips.

so basically i need a clutch

Fallen2603

Sounds like a solid theory to me. Besides, a SPEC clutch/pressure plate/flywheel setup will take more of that torquey abuse we love sooo much.
You think that transmission will hold up to that kind of abuse without a beefier rebuild?

project89

iTrader: (1)

more then likley to see anything more then a tiny bit of spirited driving he will need to swap to a tko 600 or a built t56

Fallen2603

This would be easier:
http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp
Don't need to swap cross-member/torque-arm or driveshaft...

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

the transmission wont take a lot...but...might as well take it till it goes boom right lol. at some point ill send it off for a rebuild probably through g-force as its more of a bolt on thing.

i dont have a huge lead foot so i imagine ill be able to drive it around a lot before the tranny takes a crap just have to wait and see. ill put the clutch in and hit the dyno first to get a good run in before i destroy it

Fallen2603

I just hope she goes boom...QUIETLY. Hate to see the transmission going out taking other stuff with it.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I don't think you're quite there yet. From what I hear they really don't crap until ~375hp. I've also heard that the case is the problem with the t5, not internals.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

and thanks for sharing in this detail.

either i'm blind or the only thing you have changed in your fuel systems are the injectors?! so the stock fuel pressure regulator can handle the boost too?
have you experienced any other problems like the need for check valves in the vac routing (like brakebooster) or a bigger pcv?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Before I turbocharged mine I put a nos kit for a 5.0 mustang that puts 80psi on the regulator to drive up fuel pressure. Still using it for intercooling with the turbo. It's fine. The booster should already have a check valve. You just need to add a checkvalve to the ccp line & before the vac canister for the under dash stuff.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

i have yet to change anything other than the injectors so far, i imagine ill need a fuel pump soon im still running the original and i may put in an adjustable FPR but for now everything works well so we will see what happens

i havent put my check valve in yet but like he said ill need it for the heater controls... i dont have one on the brake booster and its working fine

deadbird

OEM, the brake booster is equipped with it's own 1-way valve on the 90° fitting on it. The HVAC also has the 1-way check valve from the 'orb of power' to retain vacuum to the hvac controls an cruise.

Adding turbo shouldn't affect any stock vacuum controls unless under boost for a long duration. HVAC and cruise would be the fist to putter out under boost. Brakes will always be non affected unless the valve is bad. The booster stores enough vacuum to assure at least one good (positive pressure) stop in the event the engine dies.

HVAC controls are not a safety issue so, the 'orb of power' stores just enough vacuum to assure cruise doesn't kick out under heavy load and the vent door won't default to defrost.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Was skimming through this at work and knowticed that I work for that company. And yes its been a big help for finding bolts.

I'll have to read the updates on this more in depth when I get out today....but looking good so far.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

i totally forgot that fitting was a valve

so you work there huh, whats the part number and price on some allan head bolts for my headers

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

look what came in the mail today

project89

iTrader: (1)

hey steve if u vould i need some files from u. i have an updated tune but i want to verify i started with the most up to date settings and timming/fuel tables from the ecm.

i need u to hook ur laptop up to the car

#1 turn the key on
#2 plug in laptop on middle usb port and open megatune
#3 select ms1 extra 029y4 and megatune will open and should say connected at the lower right hand side of the screen

#4 top left goto file then select save as and save the file to ur desktop name it "updatedmsq.msq"

#5 then click the tunning tab on the top and click vetable 1
#6 a new screen will apear witht he ve teble when it does goto file then click table export
#7in the save box name it "updatedve.vex" and save it to ur desktop and then u can close out that window
#8 click the spark tab and select spark table 1 , new window oipens and export it the same way u did with the ve table to the desktop, name it "updatedsparktable.vex"
#9 then close the megasquirt

then i need u to zip those files and upload them here or pm them to me once i dbl check everything i have a new tune for u that has

#1 o2 correction enabled
#2 lean cruise
#3 over boost protection enabled
#4 cold start fuel tables somewhat more tunned
#5 ve tables extended from a max of 8 psi to 15 psi
#6 anti rev enabled if u want so u can go wot without the clutch slipping



-----------

btw the stock fp will get u to about 320-340ish rwhp / low 12's before u need to swap it out for a walboro

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

sweet, itll be a bit before i can do that the car is over at deadbirds. if i get a chance ill go by there this weekend otherwise ill probably be working on it the next weekend. ill get them to you asap.

project89

iTrader: (1)

ok umm if u cant upload the files here email them to me, also ill enable antirev for u but ill include some screen shots of how to adjust it so u can fine tune that easily or turn it on or off at will, enabling it will let u get on it and let the ecm back the power down if it starts to slip the clutch or spin the tires so u dont burn up the clutch u have now

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

thats cool we should probably do all that through email. i know you have mine so send me a email so i have yours.

im not TOO worried about the clutch honestly, im pretty confident that its whats causing the problem so the sooner i burn it up the sooner i have to get a new one lol

project89

iTrader: (1)

in that case every 1 click on the boost controller is 2-3 psi of boost give it about 4 clicks when u get the new tune files lmao

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

dont worry itll get plenty of clicks when the clutch goes in

if somone would buy my headers..or injectors..or misc v6 stuff i could get a new clutch

project89

iTrader: (1)

try ebay on those headers, oh yeah id hold onto the misc couplers and clamps you have those ebay clamps ave a tendancy to strip out if ur not careful and it never hurts to have a spare coupler in the trunk for when cruising around incase something happens

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

i may soon if they dont sell...id much rather sell them on here though

im keeping stuff i might need but i do have a lot of stuff i dont need laying around

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

Some Spec Clutch options and prices...any opinions?

http://www.specclutch.com/products

project89

iTrader: (1)

stage 3 is ur best bet stage 4 is the same clutch but does not have a sprung hub to absorb driveline shock which will be harsh on the t5. if u want to go all out id say stage 5 but i dont know how well it will behave on the street. but aparently there twin disk clutch setups are pretty nice. few guys over on tff.com use them in street cars.

ur best bet would be to call up spec directly and speak to a sales rep and see what they recomend.but im 90% sure the stage 3 is all u will need, but for the 100 buck price diff between stage 3 and 5 if the stage 5 will be streetable it is prolly worth the upgrade as u will never have to worry about the clutch