Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
10-19-2014, 10:37 AM
#1601
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
The limiting factor in amount of boost that an engine can handle always seems to center around the head gaskets, but that's kinda misleading...
Boost as read on a gauge is simply a matter of restriction. So, you could make some really small ports on that custom intake you propose and and feed 30 PSIG of boost to the engine, repeatedly, without needing anything special elsewhere in the engine.
High boost numbers are only used to sound impressive to people that don't fully understand what "boost" really is.
In reality, targeting a certain boost pressure is really counter productive, since you will need to size the turbo for that specific boost pressure at what ever flow rate that is based on the head flow and other engine specific factors, but may cause other points in the engine's operating range to suffer.
Another way to look at it is the flow of air flow produced throw a small straw at high pressure could be half that of less pressure through a garden hose. Since engines produce power based on how much air is actually entering the cylinder(s) (among other parameters), then it's far more important to look at what the actual air flow is, and not so much how much pressure is used to get there.
Boost as read on a gauge is simply a matter of restriction. So, you could make some really small ports on that custom intake you propose and and feed 30 PSIG of boost to the engine, repeatedly, without needing anything special elsewhere in the engine.
High boost numbers are only used to sound impressive to people that don't fully understand what "boost" really is.
In reality, targeting a certain boost pressure is really counter productive, since you will need to size the turbo for that specific boost pressure at what ever flow rate that is based on the head flow and other engine specific factors, but may cause other points in the engine's operating range to suffer.
Another way to look at it is the flow of air flow produced throw a small straw at high pressure could be half that of less pressure through a garden hose. Since engines produce power based on how much air is actually entering the cylinder(s) (among other parameters), then it's far more important to look at what the actual air flow is, and not so much how much pressure is used to get there.
10-19-2014, 10:49 AM
#1602
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: DeKalb, IL
Posts: 838
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 2006 Cobalt SS/SC
Engine: LSJ
Transmission: F35 MU3
Axle/Gears: 4.05
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Boost as read on a gauge is simply a matter of restriction. So, you could make some really small ports on that custom intake you propose and and feed 30 PSIG of boost to the engine, repeatedly, without needing anything special elsewhere in the engine.
High boost numbers are only used to sound impressive to people that don't fully understand what "boost" really is.
High boost numbers are only used to sound impressive to people that don't fully understand what "boost" really is.
Instead, focus on how much power you want out of your set-up. You could easily push your current T3 turbo to 30psi and make, hypothetically, 250WHP (I honestly don't know, I'm just using this number as an example). You could use a bigger turbo that can make 250WHP at only 4psi.
From what I've seen on this forum, I don't doubt the motor could handle 30psi with some forged pistons and good valvesprings plus other goodies. However, do you need to push 30psi to meet your power goals? Maybe, maybe not.
The more important question is not can the motor handle 30psi, but how much power do you want to make out of your set-up?
10-19-2014, 12:12 PM
#1603
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
Thats what I'm talking about guys, much appreciated.
Ok so I will state this hypothetical pipe dream in my mind.
It would probably need twins, but to do it with a single turbo on a v6 would be ridiculous. Its also purely hypothetical because I will probably never have the money to get this accomplished, unless I win the lottery. In that case it would all be addressed in a new build thread, lol.
All that aside, put all chassis, transmission, etc out of the equation for simplicitys sake.
Here it is, 800-1000 hp on a 60°v6.
What turbo/turbos, engine internals, intake designs, etc?
I know its a bit off topic but kinda still on topic, still allowed in my thread? Just trying to kill time till I get the trans sorted.
Ok so I will state this hypothetical pipe dream in my mind.
It would probably need twins, but to do it with a single turbo on a v6 would be ridiculous. Its also purely hypothetical because I will probably never have the money to get this accomplished, unless I win the lottery. In that case it would all be addressed in a new build thread, lol.
All that aside, put all chassis, transmission, etc out of the equation for simplicitys sake.
Here it is, 800-1000 hp on a 60°v6.
What turbo/turbos, engine internals, intake designs, etc?
I know its a bit off topic but kinda still on topic, still allowed in my thread? Just trying to kill time till I get the trans sorted.
10-19-2014, 05:04 PM
#1604
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northwest Ohio
Posts: 6,273
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes
on
18 Posts
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: BBC 509 Merlin ii 9.6:1 pump gas
Transmission: ATI pro th350 sfi case. TSI 5500 st
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 4:10s
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Psi is often looked upon as power or air flow but it's not.
It's just restriction. When a set up is correct the pressure can be less. Alot of fast drag racers run alot of boost. Case in point a GN guy I know runs 30 psi on his set up. 102 mm turbo iirc. It runs 7.50s in the 1/4. But also runs 9 flat at 12psi of boost. His turbo is pretty big but then comes a point where you can only open up stuff so much.
To get 1000hp out of a 3400 you would probly be up there arround 30psi. But thats a guess because I've nevery heard of someone getting hp like that.
Any one have a idea how many hp Mars has to get those 120-130mph trap speeds?? Probly 600 hp and he runs arround 15psi iirc.
It's just restriction. When a set up is correct the pressure can be less. Alot of fast drag racers run alot of boost. Case in point a GN guy I know runs 30 psi on his set up. 102 mm turbo iirc. It runs 7.50s in the 1/4. But also runs 9 flat at 12psi of boost. His turbo is pretty big but then comes a point where you can only open up stuff so much.
To get 1000hp out of a 3400 you would probly be up there arround 30psi. But thats a guess because I've nevery heard of someone getting hp like that.
Any one have a idea how many hp Mars has to get those 120-130mph trap speeds?? Probly 600 hp and he runs arround 15psi iirc.
Last edited by fasteddi; 10-19-2014 at 05:07 PM.
10-19-2014, 08:37 PM
#1606
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Utah
Posts: 10,401
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Car: 89 RS 89 iroc 87 firebird
Engine: 3.1 Turbo/ 355 twin turbo
Transmission: a4 w/ 4500 stall/ a4 / t5
Axle/Gears: strange s60 /w 3:42's
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Hypothetical question here.
Involving a 3.4/3500 hybrid with a T4. Other than a completely fabricated intake, what else would it take for the motor to handle 30psi? Not just once or twice either.
I know locking head studs, forged pistons, etc. Don't tell me it cant be done, i just wanna know what would have to be done to it to make it handle that amount of boost.
Also, in more realistic talk, will the electronic speedo sensor output for a 700r4 be read by Megasquirt or does it need an input circuit? Mine has the cable driven one but after that collector blowout I had it melted the speedo cable and it no longer works.
Involving a 3.4/3500 hybrid with a T4. Other than a completely fabricated intake, what else would it take for the motor to handle 30psi? Not just once or twice either.
I know locking head studs, forged pistons, etc. Don't tell me it cant be done, i just wanna know what would have to be done to it to make it handle that amount of boost.
Also, in more realistic talk, will the electronic speedo sensor output for a 700r4 be read by Megasquirt or does it need an input circuit? Mine has the cable driven one but after that collector blowout I had it melted the speedo cable and it no longer works.
and u will never get a factory block to 1000hp , well maybe once, the rpm will kill it , so u would have to attemp to shove as much air in fuel into the cyls at a low rpm which would just push the crank out the bottom.
650 is a good round number on factory block and u could prolly make 700hp live for a bit
Last edited by project89; 10-19-2014 at 08:40 PM.
10-19-2014, 09:52 PM
#1607
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
get a gps speedo , u need ms2 and in input circut to read the electronic speedo signal
and u will never get a factory block to 1000hp , well maybe once, the rpm will kill it , so u would have to attemp to shove as much air in fuel into the cyls at a low rpm which would just push the crank out the bottom.
650 is a good round number on factory block and u could prolly make 700hp live for a bit
10-20-2014, 03:43 AM
#1609
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Utah
Posts: 10,401
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Car: 89 RS 89 iroc 87 firebird
Engine: 3.1 Turbo/ 355 twin turbo
Transmission: a4 w/ 4500 stall/ a4 / t5
Axle/Gears: strange s60 /w 3:42's
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
u can also do it with ms 1 but u have to build a circut that takes the vss pulse signal and converts it to a 0-5v signal.
once u do that u can hook it to any of the spare inputs, then in ur tuning software of choice u just add the gauge details in the settings.ini file i.e 0volts=0 mph and 5 volts = 145 or however u have the signal conveter setup
ms2 is the same
ms3 i believe reads the vss pulses directly
i actually had the diagrams for building the signal conversion circuit , but lost them when my old laptop harddrive died. they are posted on the ms forums somewere, but now that ms3 can do it out of the box the diagrams have more then likley been removed form the official forums
once u do that u can hook it to any of the spare inputs, then in ur tuning software of choice u just add the gauge details in the settings.ini file i.e 0volts=0 mph and 5 volts = 145 or however u have the signal conveter setup
ms2 is the same
ms3 i believe reads the vss pulses directly
i actually had the diagrams for building the signal conversion circuit , but lost them when my old laptop harddrive died. they are posted on the ms forums somewere, but now that ms3 can do it out of the box the diagrams have more then likley been removed form the official forums
10-20-2014, 10:35 AM
#1610
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
u can also do it with ms 1 but u have to build a circut that takes the vss pulse signal and converts it to a 0-5v signal.
once u do that u can hook it to any of the spare inputs, then in ur tuning software of choice u just add the gauge details in the settings.ini file i.e 0volts=0 mph and 5 volts = 145 or however u have the signal conveter setup
ms2 is the same
ms3 i believe reads the vss pulses directly
i actually had the diagrams for building the signal conversion circuit , but lost them when my old laptop harddrive died. they are posted on the ms forums somewere, but now that ms3 can do it out of the box the diagrams have more then likley been removed form the official forums
once u do that u can hook it to any of the spare inputs, then in ur tuning software of choice u just add the gauge details in the settings.ini file i.e 0volts=0 mph and 5 volts = 145 or however u have the signal conveter setup
ms2 is the same
ms3 i believe reads the vss pulses directly
i actually had the diagrams for building the signal conversion circuit , but lost them when my old laptop harddrive died. they are posted on the ms forums somewere, but now that ms3 can do it out of the box the diagrams have more then likley been removed form the official forums
It would essentially the same process as adding another air temp sensor, just different values in the .ini file. Awesome I have that page bookmarked already.
Matt is usually good with sending links to the "hidden" pages, lol.
I would also have to get some speedo gears, I have a pm from awhile back listing the gears I need for my combo.
10-28-2014, 06:26 PM
#1611
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
So I figure if I intend to push higher boost numbers for more power, (yea yea i know its not psi that determines power or something like that) I might as well just port and polish the heads and 3100 intake for the hybrid on the 3.4 block.
Whatcha think?
Edit
I already have the small port top end, and am getting RubberDs 3.4, so thats what Im gonna work with. Id need the 3100 pistons or what would the compression ratio be with the 3.4 pistons?
Whatcha think?
Edit
I already have the small port top end, and am getting RubberDs 3.4, so thats what Im gonna work with. Id need the 3100 pistons or what would the compression ratio be with the 3.4 pistons?
Last edited by willexoIX; 10-28-2014 at 06:57 PM.
10-28-2014, 07:40 PM
#1612
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
You need 3400 pistons, not 3100 pistons.
If you used the 3.4 (RWD) pistons and the gen3 heads you would have an SCR of about 12:1.
While the small port 3100 heads are better than gen2 heads and FAR better than gen1 heads, for how cheap large port or 3400 top ends can be picked up, you will be worlds ahead to do so.
If you used the 3.4 (RWD) pistons and the gen3 heads you would have an SCR of about 12:1.
While the small port 3100 heads are better than gen2 heads and FAR better than gen1 heads, for how cheap large port or 3400 top ends can be picked up, you will be worlds ahead to do so.
10-28-2014, 08:18 PM
#1613
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
Ok, if I go that far I will just get the 3500 top end. So I would need the 3500 pistons for that correct? Or would the 3400 pistons work just the same?
10-28-2014, 09:08 PM
#1614
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
No, it's the block that determines which pistons to use not the heads.
3500 pistons will not fit in a 3.4 block (without gratuitous boring anyway, which will likely not be possible). You will still use 3400 pistons in a 3.4 block.
Yes, 3500 top end would be even better, but does require more work or adapters than a 3400 top end will. If I was on as much of a budget as you say you are, I would go 3400 top end, because of the less need for adapters (for the throttle body), and some other modifications that could require some welding of aluminum depending on how you want to deal with things.
3500 pistons will not fit in a 3.4 block (without gratuitous boring anyway, which will likely not be possible). You will still use 3400 pistons in a 3.4 block.
Yes, 3500 top end would be even better, but does require more work or adapters than a 3400 top end will. If I was on as much of a budget as you say you are, I would go 3400 top end, because of the less need for adapters (for the throttle body), and some other modifications that could require some welding of aluminum depending on how you want to deal with things.
10-29-2014, 05:09 AM
#1615
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northwest Ohio
Posts: 6,273
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes
on
18 Posts
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: BBC 509 Merlin ii 9.6:1 pump gas
Transmission: ATI pro th350 sfi case. TSI 5500 st
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 4:10s
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Just remember that the pistons bore depend on the block you use and always use the piston dish size based on the heads. Ie. For a 3.1/3100. Use a 3.1 bore piston, 3100 fwd piston dish. So always use fwd pistons on a hybrid unless you want very high cr.
I'd stick with the 3400 hybrid set up also. It's lower cost and it will keep you happy for a while. Iirc. My hybrid build cost under 800 bucks and that was with machining of the block, custom push rods...exc. it was done right.
You've seen what a 3.1/3100 can do with mine so don't get too hung up on a 3500 hybrid. If you want a 3500 bad then do a full fwd swap or a 3900 swap.
I'd stick with the 3400 hybrid set up also. It's lower cost and it will keep you happy for a while. Iirc. My hybrid build cost under 800 bucks and that was with machining of the block, custom push rods...exc. it was done right.
You've seen what a 3.1/3100 can do with mine so don't get too hung up on a 3500 hybrid. If you want a 3500 bad then do a full fwd swap or a 3900 swap.
Last edited by fasteddi; 10-29-2014 at 05:12 AM.
10-29-2014, 08:00 AM
#1616
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
And now we mention the 3900, lol. I'd love that. Its either going to be the 3100 or 3400 top then. But as I mentioned before, it'll take time to get built. Lately I have had an influx of people needing tuneups and repairs, so I'm still saving up for the transmission. I may be getting one to swap in, then do a full rebuild on mine once its out and I accumulate the parts.
The trans will probably get rebuilt before the hybrid does anyway so there is still time.
When that time arrives I will make another build thread for it.
Stupid question though. What were the major differences between large port and small port 3100s besides the ports?
The trans will probably get rebuilt before the hybrid does anyway so there is still time.
When that time arrives I will make another build thread for it.
Stupid question though. What were the major differences between large port and small port 3100s besides the ports?
10-29-2014, 03:16 PM
#1617
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northwest Ohio
Posts: 6,273
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes
on
18 Posts
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: BBC 509 Merlin ii 9.6:1 pump gas
Transmission: ATI pro th350 sfi case. TSI 5500 st
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 4:10s
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Heres what I think... hopefully its the truth. A 3100 and a 3400 are the same in general if they are 2000+. I have a 2002 3400 top end on my 3.1L but its essentially the same as if it was a 2002 3100 on my 3.1L
"The 3100 and 3400 top ends will give you the same results with the EXCEPTION being 3100 engines built before 2000, these engines are not as ideal, they are still an improvement but will not flow as much as 3400's and 2000+ 3100's."
I cant get into detail off the top of my head about the differences in the small port design else then I believe the ports are smaller and so are the valve(s). Six Shooter and a few others on here would know this much better then many of us when it comes to details.
But if you do go that route some day just make sure your rear end is beefed up alot and you have the trans. in check. The power difference between the RWD top end and FWD top end is amazing. The mid to high rpm area is where the major gain is.
"The 3100 and 3400 top ends will give you the same results with the EXCEPTION being 3100 engines built before 2000, these engines are not as ideal, they are still an improvement but will not flow as much as 3400's and 2000+ 3100's."
I cant get into detail off the top of my head about the differences in the small port design else then I believe the ports are smaller and so are the valve(s). Six Shooter and a few others on here would know this much better then many of us when it comes to details.
But if you do go that route some day just make sure your rear end is beefed up alot and you have the trans. in check. The power difference between the RWD top end and FWD top end is amazing. The mid to high rpm area is where the major gain is.
10-29-2014, 03:51 PM
#1618
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
Dont know wtf I was thinking asking that question. Made myself look like an idiot lol.
10-29-2014, 04:01 PM
#1619
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
Heres what I think... hopefully its the truth. A 3100 and a 3400 are the same in general if they are 2000+. I have a 2002 3400 top end on my 3.1L but its essentially the same as if it was a 2002 3100 on my 3.1L
"The 3100 and 3400 top ends will give you the same results with the EXCEPTION being 3100 engines built before 2000, these engines are not as ideal, they are still an improvement but will not flow as much as 3400's and 2000+ 3100's."
I cant get into detail off the top of my head about the differences in the small port design else then I believe the ports are smaller and so are the valve(s). Six Shooter and a few others on here would know this much better then many of us when it comes to details.
But if you do go that route some day just make sure your rear end is beefed up alot and you have the trans. in check. The power difference between the RWD top end and FWD top end is amazing. The mid to high rpm area is where the major gain is.
"The 3100 and 3400 top ends will give you the same results with the EXCEPTION being 3100 engines built before 2000, these engines are not as ideal, they are still an improvement but will not flow as much as 3400's and 2000+ 3100's."
I cant get into detail off the top of my head about the differences in the small port design else then I believe the ports are smaller and so are the valve(s). Six Shooter and a few others on here would know this much better then many of us when it comes to details.
But if you do go that route some day just make sure your rear end is beefed up alot and you have the trans. in check. The power difference between the RWD top end and FWD top end is amazing. The mid to high rpm area is where the major gain is.
I mean, I'm not going to drag race it or want some ridiculous power level out of it. The aim all along was daily driver, so I may as well just pick up the 3400 pistons. Since I have the top end, I will go with that for now. If a screaming deal comes along for the 2000+ 3400 between now and then I will grab it.
Else then that I don't see any reason to not use what I got unless an opportunity presents itself to get the better stuff.
10-29-2014, 04:14 PM
#1620
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northwest Ohio
Posts: 6,273
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes
on
18 Posts
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: BBC 509 Merlin ii 9.6:1 pump gas
Transmission: ATI pro th350 sfi case. TSI 5500 st
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 4:10s
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Theres no problem using a smaller port design IIRC. It should work. Is it a pre 2000 3400? Or 3100? Hopefully some one can chime in for the differences. If it will work you can always pocket port those heads out a bit and knock the castings off and that will help alot.
Also i have a extra crank. You could always retain your 2.8L block. Bore and hone it out(doesnt cost too much) toss in a 3.1L crank and just use that. Believe me the difference between a 3.1 and 3.4/3x00 hybrid isnt going to make much of a difference exspecially if your not chasing 10 second 1/4 miles.
Also i have a extra crank. You could always retain your 2.8L block. Bore and hone it out(doesnt cost too much) toss in a 3.1L crank and just use that. Believe me the difference between a 3.1 and 3.4/3x00 hybrid isnt going to make much of a difference exspecially if your not chasing 10 second 1/4 miles.
Last edited by fasteddi; 10-29-2014 at 04:18 PM.
10-29-2014, 04:28 PM
#1621
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
Theres no problem using a smaller port design IIRC. It should work. Is it a pre 2000 3400? Or 3100? Hopefully some one can chime in for the differences. If it will work you can always pocket port those heads out a bit and knock the castings off and that will help alot.
Also i have a extra crank. You could always retain your 2.8L block. Bore and hone it out(doesnt cost too much) toss in a 3.1L crank and just use that. Believe me the difference between a 3.1 and 3.4/3x00 hybrid isnt going to make much of a difference exspecially if your not chasing 10 second 1/4 miles.
Also i have a extra crank. You could always retain your 2.8L block. Bore and hone it out(doesnt cost too much) toss in a 3.1L crank and just use that. Believe me the difference between a 3.1 and 3.4/3x00 hybrid isnt going to make much of a difference exspecially if your not chasing 10 second 1/4 miles.
Anyone know the warpage tolerance on these heads?
Well I'm getting the 3.4 so I may as well use it. The idea behind that is to build it up outside the car so I can still drive it while its being built and I can take my time with it.
10-29-2014, 06:19 PM
#1622
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
3100. I would have to get new valves, still have yet to straightedge the heads. 2 valves were bent, and you can see where the intake to head gasket blew around the cooling port.
Anyone know the warpage tolerance on these heads?
Well I'm getting the 3.4 so I may as well use it. The idea behind that is to build it up outside the car so I can still drive it while its being built and I can take my time with it.
Anyone know the warpage tolerance on these heads?
Well I'm getting the 3.4 so I may as well use it. The idea behind that is to build it up outside the car so I can still drive it while its being built and I can take my time with it.
10-30-2014, 12:07 AM
#1624
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
3400 top ends are essentially all the same, from 1996 to 2005. There are differences in the years, but these are things like a change from 10mm stud for the rockers to 8mm, which I believe happened around 2003, mild port changes, that don't effect compatibility between intake manifolds and the heads, unlike other combinations of parts. Some changes in EGR mounting, and various differences in throttle body flange design. The bolt patterns are all the same, but some have notches for the IAC path, while other ones don't. Not sure if that was a year change or an application difference.
The 3100 had a drastic change in 2000 (1999 in some models, possibly), where it went from the small port parts to the large port parts that are the same as the 3400 parts, other than the UIM, which had 3100 cast into it.
I used the small port top end on a hybrid years and years ago in ,y turbo Jimmy. I would not build the same engine again. It performed well, but with the ease of getting the large port stuff anymore it would be the way to go. I really should have put a large port top end on it, since I had one, but I was saving it for another project, that never got to fruition. I learned from that, put your best stuff into the project you're build NOW, and either swap it later for the other project or just buy the same stuff for the new project.
The 3100 had a drastic change in 2000 (1999 in some models, possibly), where it went from the small port parts to the large port parts that are the same as the 3400 parts, other than the UIM, which had 3100 cast into it.
I used the small port top end on a hybrid years and years ago in ,y turbo Jimmy. I would not build the same engine again. It performed well, but with the ease of getting the large port stuff anymore it would be the way to go. I really should have put a large port top end on it, since I had one, but I was saving it for another project, that never got to fruition. I learned from that, put your best stuff into the project you're build NOW, and either swap it later for the other project or just buy the same stuff for the new project.
10-30-2014, 12:09 AM
#1625
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
I will be dabbling into the realm of MS soon-ish, but it's more to get more hands on experience than anything. I don't expect to move to MS as my main EFI any time soon.
10-30-2014, 05:04 AM
#1626
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northwest Ohio
Posts: 6,273
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes
on
18 Posts
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: BBC 509 Merlin ii 9.6:1 pump gas
Transmission: ATI pro th350 sfi case. TSI 5500 st
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 4:10s
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
I can confirm that a 2002 3400 does have 10 mm rocker studs.
10-30-2014, 04:11 PM
#1627
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
Had to take my car down the road to work today, had no idea it could do 75 in 2nd, lol. Had no other vehicle so it was a last option type deal. Floor it through 1st and second to 65, shift to 3rd and wait for the slip then drop the rpms to maintain 60mph. Works in a pinch. I'm sure everything that was blown through the trans when the clutch packs went is now in the filter. At least I hope so.
So Sunday I get $200, then around thanksgiving Im working 4 days in Daytona for $400. So Im gonna say I got the trans issue covered now, lol. I'll have enough to fix/rebuild it.
So Sunday I get $200, then around thanksgiving Im working 4 days in Daytona for $400. So Im gonna say I got the trans issue covered now, lol. I'll have enough to fix/rebuild it.
10-30-2014, 05:21 PM
#1628
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
Idle and walkaround video incoming! If you have a way to watch the video with a subwoofer DO IT!
Still in warmup, and yes I hear the vband leaking, its the one right before the muffler so screw it, lol.
Still in warmup, and yes I hear the vband leaking, its the one right before the muffler so screw it, lol.
Last edited by willexoIX; 10-30-2014 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Video
10-30-2014, 05:26 PM
#1629
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Nothing wrong with Delco EFI, I use it in my conversions and have done so successfully for years now.
I will be dabbling into the realm of MS soon-ish, but it's more to get more hands on experience than anything. I don't expect to move to MS as my main EFI any time soon.
I will be dabbling into the realm of MS soon-ish, but it's more to get more hands on experience than anything. I don't expect to move to MS as my main EFI any time soon.
Had to take my car down the road to work today, had no idea it could do 75 in 2nd, lol. Had no other vehicle so it was a last option type deal. Floor it through 1st and second to 65, shift to 3rd and wait for the slip then drop the rpms to maintain 60mph. Works in a pinch. I'm sure everything that was blown through the trans when the clutch packs went is now in the filter. At least I hope so.
So Sunday I get $200, then around thanksgiving Im working 4 days in Daytona for $400. So Im gonna say I got the trans issue covered now, lol. I'll have enough to fix/rebuild it.
So Sunday I get $200, then around thanksgiving Im working 4 days in Daytona for $400. So Im gonna say I got the trans issue covered now, lol. I'll have enough to fix/rebuild it.
10-30-2014, 06:38 PM
#1631
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fl
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: Sport Coupe
Engine: 3.4 MPFI
Transmission: WC T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
It's no turbo, and i might have posted this here already, but here's mine idling a few weeks ago. I would do a walk around, but, I'm lazy.
Will, yours sounds pretty tight. Good work!
Will, yours sounds pretty tight. Good work!
10-30-2014, 06:55 PM
#1632
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Nothing wrong with Delco EFI, I use it in my conversions and have done so successfully for years now.
I will be dabbling into the realm of MS soon-ish, but it's more to get more hands on experience than anything. I don't expect to move to MS as my main EFI any time soon.
I will be dabbling into the realm of MS soon-ish, but it's more to get more hands on experience than anything. I don't expect to move to MS as my main EFI any time soon.
10-31-2014, 11:45 AM
#1634
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
It's no turbo, and i might have posted this here already, but here's mine idling a few weeks ago. I would do a walk around, but, I'm lazy.
Will, yours sounds pretty tight. Good work!
Video Link: http://youtu.be/r6wTBICLBTY
Will, yours sounds pretty tight. Good work!
Video Link: http://youtu.be/r6wTBICLBTY
I can't wait to get the other trans, swap my TV over, order a corvette servo and boost valves, throw those in, change the fluid and put a little lucas trans stuff in it to recondition the seals. I should have enough to get that done on sunday so hopefully in about a week if all goes well I can have it in the car and running.
11-01-2014, 12:08 AM
#1635
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Didn't even see your post before, thanks man! Yours sounds pretty good too, sounded close to mine before the turbo.
I can't wait to get the other trans, swap my TV over, order a corvette servo and boost valves, throw those in, change the fluid and put a little lucas trans stuff in it to recondition the seals. I should have enough to get that done on sunday so hopefully in about a week if all goes well I can have it in the car and running.
I can't wait to get the other trans, swap my TV over, order a corvette servo and boost valves, throw those in, change the fluid and put a little lucas trans stuff in it to recondition the seals. I should have enough to get that done on sunday so hopefully in about a week if all goes well I can have it in the car and running.
11-06-2014, 10:57 AM
#1641
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
So after being given a 4 day job in Daytona, which would have been $400 to drop into my transmission, they decided to give it to someone else after already giving it to me. I will leave out every curse word I would like to post because of this being a "family forum".
On topic. What do I need to eliminate the 2-3 flare on an 86 700r4? Is it just the corvette servo? Or is it also the boost valve?
I am skimping on this because truthfully I have about $50. So I don't want to hear anything other than what I am asking. I appreciate opinions and otherwise, but if you have anything more than the answer I am looking for, please keep it to yourself. I am not in the best mood right now so I would like to keep my thread from getting locked in case I fly off the handle at someone.
Thanks.
On topic. What do I need to eliminate the 2-3 flare on an 86 700r4? Is it just the corvette servo? Or is it also the boost valve?
I am skimping on this because truthfully I have about $50. So I don't want to hear anything other than what I am asking. I appreciate opinions and otherwise, but if you have anything more than the answer I am looking for, please keep it to yourself. I am not in the best mood right now so I would like to keep my thread from getting locked in case I fly off the handle at someone.
Thanks.
11-06-2014, 11:00 AM
#1642
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
So after being given a 4 day job in Daytona, which would have been $400 to drop into my transmission, they decided to give it to someone else after already giving it to me. I will leave out every curse word I would like to post because of this being a "family forum".
On topic. What do I need to eliminate the 2-3 flare on an 86 700r4? Is it just the corvette servo? Or is it also the boost valve?
I am skimping on this because truthfully I have about $50. So I don't want to hear anything other than what I am asking. I appreciate opinions and otherwise, but if you have anything more than the answer I am looking for, please keep it to yourself. I am not in the best mood right now so I would like to keep my thread from getting locked in case I fly off the handle at someone.
Thanks.
On topic. What do I need to eliminate the 2-3 flare on an 86 700r4? Is it just the corvette servo? Or is it also the boost valve?
I am skimping on this because truthfully I have about $50. So I don't want to hear anything other than what I am asking. I appreciate opinions and otherwise, but if you have anything more than the answer I am looking for, please keep it to yourself. I am not in the best mood right now so I would like to keep my thread from getting locked in case I fly off the handle at someone.
Thanks.
11-06-2014, 12:16 PM
#1643
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,401
Likes: 0
Received 215 Likes
on
201 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
You can also enlarge the 3rd feed hole in the spacer plate. This all becomes a balancing act as it is easy to have both 2nd and 3rd engaged at the same time. This ends up with the car nosing over on the 2-3 shift.
The 2-3 flair is a timing issue on the shifting. The 2/4 band is pushed off at the same time the 3/4 clutch pack is applied. If the band releases before the 3/4 clutches apply the result is a flair.
The opposite, having the 3/4 clutches apply before the 2/4 band is pushed off causes the transmission to lockup for an instant. The car noses down and stops accelerating for that instant.
RBob.
11-06-2014, 12:57 PM
#1644
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
I would do both, the larger servo along with the main and intermediate boost valves. Boosting the line pressure will help a lot toward having the clutches hold and live longer.
You can also enlarge the 3rd feed hole in the spacer plate. This all becomes a balancing act as it is easy to have both 2nd and 3rd engaged at the same time. This ends up with the car nosing over on the 2-3 shift.
The 2-3 flair is a timing issue on the shifting. The 2/4 band is pushed off at the same time the 3/4 clutch pack is applied. If the band releases before the 3/4 clutches apply the result is a flair.
The opposite, having the 3/4 clutches apply before the 2/4 band is pushed off causes the transmission to lockup for an instant. The car noses down and stops accelerating for that instant.
RBob.
So say I get the servo, main and intermediate boost valves, that should be enough to keep the band applied till the clutches fully apply? I'd like to stay away from nose-down if possible so would I skip the feed hole enlargement? What would be the best combo of all you listed to get it as close to perfect as possible?
Like servo, feed hole and intermediate boost valve, etc. If possible I'd like to leave the valve body in place while I swap my modded TV sleeve to the temp replacement trans and put the servo, etc..
Those parts can be swapped into mine when its close to completion.
Also, what are the differences between the 86 I am getting and the 87+(89) thats burnt up?
Last edited by willexoIX; 11-06-2014 at 01:02 PM.
11-06-2014, 01:00 PM
#1645
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
I don't think my trans has any actual failed parts, just a lack of fluid. The TV cable gasket failed and I was never able to get it properly fixed. So I just drove it low on fluid. When I did fill it up it worked fine for the most part. I have no doubt this trans will last you however long it takes to repair yours.
driving
11-06-2014, 01:14 PM
#1646
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northwest Ohio
Posts: 6,273
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes
on
18 Posts
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: BBC 509 Merlin ii 9.6:1 pump gas
Transmission: ATI pro th350 sfi case. TSI 5500 st
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 4:10s
Re: Another Turbo 2.8 in progress
Before I had a shift kit on my current trans, I just add a vet servo, a larger intermediate, and boost valve and the feeling of the transmission was amazing. Much better, quicker shifts, no more flaring, and shifts quite hard.
Running a 7004r low on trans fluid or having the tv set up bad is not good for the packs at all. I ruined a trans fast when i had a trans line fail 2 years ago and had no choice but to drive it home 3 miles with 3 qts of fluid missing(I drove very slow). I had a spare at home so thats the only reason i drove it home. Thats when i first moved up by toledo ohio and knew absolutely no one to get me home. But after tossing fluid in it again it was fine except durring WOT pulls, even at very low boost numbers(8psi). It would slip constantly, not terrible but definitely noticeable on a datalog and from a seat dyno, and track numbers. The car would only run high 13s at best at the track and soon as i put the current trans in the car, stock trans at the time, i picked up almost a second in the 1/4 mile.
Running a 7004r low on trans fluid or having the tv set up bad is not good for the packs at all. I ruined a trans fast when i had a trans line fail 2 years ago and had no choice but to drive it home 3 miles with 3 qts of fluid missing(I drove very slow). I had a spare at home so thats the only reason i drove it home. Thats when i first moved up by toledo ohio and knew absolutely no one to get me home. But after tossing fluid in it again it was fine except durring WOT pulls, even at very low boost numbers(8psi). It would slip constantly, not terrible but definitely noticeable on a datalog and from a seat dyno, and track numbers. The car would only run high 13s at best at the track and soon as i put the current trans in the car, stock trans at the time, i picked up almost a second in the 1/4 mile.
11-06-2014, 05:10 PM
#1649
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 89 Camaro RS running MS2X
Engine: .48/.60AR T3/T4 2.8L V6
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 2500 stall
Axle/Gears: Next to break...
Before I had a shift kit on my current trans, I just add a vet servo, a larger intermediate, and boost valve and the feeling of the transmission was amazing. Much better, quicker shifts, no more flaring, and shifts quite hard.
Running a 7004r low on trans fluid or having the tv set up bad is not good for the packs at all. I ruined a trans fast when i had a trans line fail 2 years ago and had no choice but to drive it home 3 miles with 3 qts of fluid missing(I drove very slow). I had a spare at home so thats the only reason i drove it home. Thats when i first moved up by toledo ohio and knew absolutely no one to get me home. But after tossing fluid in it again it was fine except durring WOT pulls, even at very low boost numbers(8psi). It would slip constantly, not terrible but definitely noticeable on a datalog and from a seat dyno, and track numbers. The car would only run high 13s at best at the track and soon as i put the current trans in the car, stock trans at the time, i picked up almost a second in the 1/4 mile.
Running a 7004r low on trans fluid or having the tv set up bad is not good for the packs at all. I ruined a trans fast when i had a trans line fail 2 years ago and had no choice but to drive it home 3 miles with 3 qts of fluid missing(I drove very slow). I had a spare at home so thats the only reason i drove it home. Thats when i first moved up by toledo ohio and knew absolutely no one to get me home. But after tossing fluid in it again it was fine except durring WOT pulls, even at very low boost numbers(8psi). It would slip constantly, not terrible but definitely noticeable on a datalog and from a seat dyno, and track numbers. The car would only run high 13s at best at the track and soon as i put the current trans in the car, stock trans at the time, i picked up almost a second in the 1/4 mile.
Last edited by willexoIX; 11-06-2014 at 05:19 PM.