C2YT

This thread is for anyone looking on how to turbocharge their 3.1l, hopefully you can find answers though out my build. I'm doing this a bit different than everyone else since my car is partly a show car. The engine/trans will be removed and the engine bay will be painted. This wouldn't be happening without the help of @fasteddi! So make sure to check his car out. Basic breakdown of the thread, i'll do my best to keep it updated:

1. Initial questions and comments
2. Teardown of engine and components
Removal of Transmission
Removal of Engine





Original Post:


Last year I was about to pull the trigger on a 3.1l turbo build for my 1991 Camaro RS. That was until a driver in front of me slammed on his brakes almost hitting the person in front of him and not giving me enough room to stop. The damage is fixed now and I am looking at the turbo as a viable option now. I have some quick questions before I dive into this, I do plan on ordering the tuning equipment from Moates here in the next few weeks. Also, FastEddi lives near me and will hopefully be helping me along

1. How reliable will the build be? I am thinking a gt3582r from ebay will do the trick. Obviously, money is a factor here. I can do all the fabrication myself with some guidance from Mark. I do daily drive the car in the summer and have yet to have a problem with it.
2. I'm not looking for speed or 1/4 mile times. Something more sufficient than the 140hp would be great.
3. Will 28lb injectors support 300 hp?
4. Will I need to replace my stock fuel pump? I'm not shooting for sky high horsepower numbers, something around 300 would be more than sufficient.
5. Is it possible to keep the ac? Like I said, I do daily drive the car in the summer.

Thank you all, hopefully I can make this happen! I'm sure I will have more stupid questions.

Fallen2603

A GT3582R is a lot of turbo for just 300 horsepower, even at the wheels. Not a big fan of eBay turbo's either. Seen too many, including FastEddi's, break.

This turbo would be well sized for you, I think, with a .63 A/R turbine housing:
http://www.agpturbo.com/borg-warner-...-turbocharger/

I'm a Borg-Warner fan. Yes, more expensive than an eBay turbo, but you get what you pay for.

Regardless, good luck with your build.

project89

iTrader: (1)

something went threw fasteddis turbo that wasnt normal breakage

heres the issue ur g oing to have turbos/boost in general is addicting , i may just want a nic ebump in power now , but once the turbos on u will want more and more and more


the 3582 is a great all around turbo and will support big power down the raod and ill work just fine at low boost levels so i would get it
the other option is the 113$ ebay turbo but it will run out of steam pretty fast once u want to turn it up

so it would be cheaper to just buy the gt3582 right fromt he start

tune it right and it will last forever


as witht he turbo same thing goes for the injectors just buy some 40 or 50's and be done with it , at minimum u want some 36'ers


stock fuel pump will run into the the high high 12's as long as ur arent cranking the fuel presure up trying to make up for small injectors

Fallen2603

One should note, however, that both project89 and fasteddi are now using Borg-Warner turbo's in their respective builds.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

This is true. I'm running a s366. But it did cost about 750 bucks. It's a solid turbo though for sure.

He's asking about 28 lbs injectors because I still have the set of GN ones streetlethel sold me 4 years ago. There a alot of little things I'd toss him for free. T3 flanges exc... he's on a budget for sure. But I think he can get a reliable 13 second car outta less then 1k all day long.

project89

iTrader: (1)

in that case the cheap 113$ turbo 28 pound inectors and under k setup

project89

iTrader: (1)

im actually not going to run the borg , im keeping the car twin turbo with twin ching chong 76's

C2YT

Yeah, mark is a life saver! I don't mind doing work, that isnt a problem. I don't need a 10 second car either, just something faster than the minivans I drive at work. Reliability is my number one concern with this. After a lot of research from before it seems like it is all in the tune. Obviously I would love to upgrade the turbo down the road, but a $700 turbo isn't quite in the budget. Could you link me the $113 t3 turbo? Thank you!

project89

iTrader: (1)

cheap turbo
http://www.ebay.com/itm/T04E-T3-T4-63-A-R-57-TRIM-TURBO-TURBOCHARGER-COMPRESSOR-400-HP-BOOST-STAGE-III-/190627430922?hash=item2c6247c20a&vxp=mtr
and this is the one i would buy

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GT3582-GT3582R-GT35-T3-Huge-400-HP-Turbo-Turbocharger-0-7-A-R-0-63-Turbine-Max-/131490958418?hash=item1e9d78cc52&vxp=mtr
the 3582 will run cooler air temps and make mor epower with less boost
either turbo will suit u just fine


spend the extra 50 bucks and save money down the road

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Dave is that cheeper one about like the one I had first? I didn't like it. The gt3582r was definitly worth the extra. Lower boost pressures lower temps and it would have lasted alot longer if I wouldn't of had something go though it.

project89

iTrader: (1)

no its not the same one those are 140$ now , the cheap one i listed for him has a 50/76mm compressor wheel , its basically an updated version of the same turbo i ran on my 2.8 and the same turbo we put on pilsburys 3.4

C2YT

For the extra little bit I think the gt3582r would be a great investment, and I can always upgrade to a BG down the road. So an under the k-member would work best for my application? IF I remember correctly ready Mark's build like that there were some ground clearance issues. Would this setup still be reliable for daily driving?

project89

iTrader: (1)

if ur cars not lowered u wont have issues , just have to go a lil slower over speed pumps and in out of driveways that have steep angles on them is all

underk is by far the cheapest route not to mention the easiest

the hardest part of the whole build will be geting the return fitting welded to the oil pan

C2YT

I already have the "slow over speed bumps" and "take wide angles in driveways" under control. Once you do paint and body work you don't dare take any chances. I seriously drive my car like it sits 3 inches off the ground... It's a show that's for sure. How long will it take to fabricate the setup? A weekend? Welding isn't an issue for me so the bung should be simple if done right. I tried to look at Mark's k-member setup but no pictures appeared. What would be the advantage to this compared to a log header setup? Would that be something I could upgrade to down the road? Sorry for all the stupid questions, I'm sure I'm not the first to ask. I just want a VERY good idea of what I'm in for before I pull the trigger.

On another note, pump gas is still good right?

project89

iTrader: (1)

pump gas is fine with a set of ac delco r42 plug u could prolly get away with 87 pump at low boost , i know i did just fine

i have some pictures i can post tom for ya

the advantage of the under k is u can reuse the factory y and manifolds , basically its 2.5 ft of pipe run from the y pipe to the front of the motor and is very simple to do

u will sacrifice a few hundred rpm in spool time witht he setup over a log header but ur not going to mind it with what ur looking to get out of it

for ur first setup keep it simple and cheap

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It depends on the fabrication and tuning. Make sure all of your welds are strong and sealed, make sure you have no oil leaks and that the oil return has no restrictions, and make sure exhaust back pressure is not an issue...

It'll be much more sufficient.

At 90% duty cycle, yes.

Can squeeze a tad more horsepower by upping fuel pressure a little.

Not if it is fairly new, it should be fine. Just be sure to monitor your fuel pressure during datalogging to be absolutely sure. Your in good hands with Mark, so get it done and enjoy...

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yes the under k memeber works fine. And its quite easy to make work. I noticed ground clearence issues but i tossed it together really fast and it had room to be tighter under the A arm. Thats where i noticed it hanging low. And my down piping was a tad rigged as well. It could have been better. But i still ran full exhaust.

I maxed out those 28lbs injectors on something like 15psi of boost on that little turbo i had at first. I used a rising rate adjustable fuel pressure regulator at one time. I had it up to about 55psi base. I got it for you if you want it also. Ill be happy to clear out the stuff i dont use and know i wont use. The 28s will work but if you are anything like many of us. once you feel the power the car has, in a few weeks after youll relize that you can just turn up the boost a psi or so and make it faster. Its really addicting to say the least.

I do have that case for my old gt3582r. You could buy new guts and toss them in. it would save you some cash. The compressor wheel is fine on the turbo. Dave had a link on the kit and i think it was like 160 bucks or so. It had both wheels and all the seals and also bearnings in the kit.

My 2 cents on the fuel pump..... I ran a stock one for a few months and no problem. But then one day it just died. Literly. Thankfully i was down the road. I will add though i cranked up the fuel pressure for a bit untill it died then i got the new fuel pump and 48lbs injectors. For 100 bucks roughly off ebay you can get a genuine walbro 255lph. And then you will have the piece of mind that your fuel pump will last. Im still running that puppy and i works great.

As for timeing. Plan on 2 weeks of down time at least. I think i did mine in about 3 weeks and that was flying. I can help speed up the process for ya since ive been messing with them for a bit now but this is something you dont wana rush and im sure we can do it right and keep it reliable. Rob you remember how long it took me to toss it together back in the day? Im pretty sure it was under 1 month at the most. I was working and finishing up collage at the time but i remember spending a good hr a day out there figureing things out..... wireing...welding...stuff like that. Then long days on the weekend

If you want 100% reliability some things such as the fuel pump and so forth are nessasary imo.



Found this video that i made like 3 years ago. I can name off a ton of stuff i would have said differently, but its a good idea of what your in for.

Gumby

Could build youself an oval pipe to go under the K, take a smaller dia pip, slice in half, make wider with flat stock. NASCAS n likes use allot of oval or square stuff for low profile.

[ which is the goto turbo now with the built in waste gate? I need to get one of those, picking up a Stage 1 430 BBB for my wagon first next weekend though]

C2YT

So let's see,

- GT3582r
- 28lb injectors (until I want to turn it up)
- under the k-member setup

And all together in 2-3 weeks? I'm going to throw a list of components together and get in verified within the next few days. Thank you for all rhe help guys!

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

After doing the math on the injectors... looks like about 90 percent DC is arround 265hp.. ouch. So you can safely say 250 would be the safe zone roughly. Mabey it would be best to get 36 or42 lbs ones from south bay. The lower boost area that you can run on that gt3582r will easily be 250 hp peak even on stock iron heads.

Mabey give southbay a pm on here and get a quote on some just in case.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I've learned over time that "injector math" is pretty conservative. I was able to get 250 HP (crank) from a set of 19 lbs injectors, I know I was pushing them to near or at 100% DC, but the math showed that I should have made less than 200 HP. Both Dyno and 1/4 mile results showed that I was indeed making much more power than I should have been with those injectors, at the pressure I was running.

Now I'm not suggesting that anyone runs tiny injectors like I did, because they were too small, especially once I got into 4th gear under hard accel, when my truck would nose over from lack of fuel, but I am saying to take "injector math" with a grain of salt, and use it as a suggestion, to get one into a ball park.

Also following the way many OEMs are going now using a small injector but higher rail pressure has proven to be a good way to provide good idle, good emissions and good power, due to the increased atomization with higher rail pressure, so this is something to consider as well.

C2YT

I will email Southbay and get a quote on both 36lb and 42lb injectors. That is something I can upgrade after the car is put together right? If I can manage to keep the boost addiction down... Lol.

Now since the engine is completely stock, should I bother doing a cam? I know a delta 260 is reccomended. Maybe do sort of a "forum experiment" and figure out some numbers on a completely stock iron headed 3.1l? I can do a cam, but it would have to be after the main part of the build is complete. Like I said, I am on a pretty tight budget but still want to do things right.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

No, no cam. Get your injectors, preferably 42lbs or higher. Get your turbo and components that is sized accordingly based on your goals with the car, not necessarily that engine. Get a good stall speed, shift kit, servo, rear gears, lower control arms and shocks. That is all you really need for that engine to enjoy it while building another engine on the side, at your own pace, that will utilize the very parts you already bought for the stock engine. That is the right way, no need to beat your stock engine to death. Get a feel for what its like to run a turbo first, don't get ahead of yourself...

C2YT

Sounds like a good plan, if I get ahead of myself please let me know lol. I do shoot off a lot of ideas or questions though.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Remember that the stock heads will only flow so much, and if your going to do a cam, might as well do the whole valve-train, and if your going to do the whole valve-train, may as well do the rolling assembly. Stock engines will last for only so long, so better to use them as a mock up, and to enjoy them at lower boost pressures. You should safely be in the low thirteen second, and high twelve second zone with your stock engine if you push it, maybe fifteen pounds of boost or a tad more, which sounds like a lot, but really isn't. Timing is the key. I just started a new turbo build on another board myself running an inline six 4200 Vortec Trailblazer, goal is a street friendly solid eleven second grocery getter, which will be a breeze to do because these are/were GM's carefully kept little secret, these engines make excellent power, stock...

C2YT

I heard those 4200s can be little monsters... A guy on another forum did a turbocharged vortec 4200 swap into his convertable IROC and it runs very low 11s conservatively. It's was very very impressive.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yes, I seen that Camaro, very nice build. That is the whole reason why I mention it, have fun with your 3.1, but build a nice solid engine on the side when you have the time, no rush, and when the time is right, drop it in and let it loose. Enjoy the stock 3.1 for what it is, a learning curve, no need to beat the crap out of it. Definitely impressed with the 4200 engine...

C2YT

Like I said, I don't plan to drag race the engine or spin it to infinity. Daily driving the car is my main concern and use. Low boost is fine for me, I know it gets addicting though. Don't want to bite off more than I can chew.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

... you wouldn't be able to anyway, your valve springs will give up the ghost once under a specific amount of boost pressure and you will lose RPM and feel like you're being held back. Stock parts will break, and were never intended for more horsepower than installed for. I speak from experience, you don't need to spin it to infinity to do damage, torque does more damage than horsepower because of the load. You can be so focused on the engine, then suddenly break your flexplate, repeatedly. What I am posting is a reminder for you, as it is easy to get a little carried away. Anyway, I tried saying what I said from a more rational perspective, and I definitely recommend looking into the SFI-6 for engine management. Best of luck with the build.

C2YT

Thank you! I looked at the sfi-6 engine management system but it is a little (okay a lot) out of my price range. Definately will consider it down the road though.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

You might as well keep the stock cam for now since your on a budget. I ran a delta260 with new stock springs. Didnt notice valve float till I started reving to about 6k. But with the stock heads theres no point in reving up that high. The 3200-5000 rpm area is going to be your sweet spot anyways after you turbo it.

I still have my old 700r with a vette servo, boost valves, intermediate valves..exc. You can have those parts if you want. I also have that tq converter that is a 2800 stall. It still worked when I used it last. It just slips badly and i mean badly when you toss 400+hp at it... so you can try it if you want. I would suggest getting a better converter eventually. I ran the stock one for about 2 weeks then went and got that one. Huge difference.

As for the SFI-6 management. Very nice system but in the case where your on a budget...the 7730 stock ecm you have will work out great. It will do everything you want. Im not on a budget but Ive kept my 7730. Its got the wideband wire into the logging, its got a 2 step in it, spark cut out(not fuel), its got the boost controler on it. Besides getting other little things...it will work fine for you unless you want to spend the extra chedder.

Oh yea you asked about pump gas. Yes you can use it. Just use at least 89 octane. No 87. I know you'll want to drive it alot (for traveling and so on) so 93 is the best way to go but we can just dial down the tune a bit and run 89 in it if you want that. R42ts ac delco plugs also.

Yes you can change the injectors later if you want. I have a solid tune still on the fueling for 28Lbs injectors. We will have to modify the boosted areas a lot (I have some kill mode tunes but you definitly dont want those....) but the idle and part throttle will be close enough that it wont take long to dial it in.

Its hard to kill the engines we have. Ill be honest mine should have blown up a ton of times when I first started as i really had no clue what i was doing. BUT I would suggest that as you're saving you get the motes stuff and a wideband. Then well catch up on a weekend and ill teach ya how to connect, datalog, and what tables to mess with. Its better to tune with the N/A engine then boosted....when learning. If you like computers at all or numbers, youll find yourself hooked on burning chips and datalogging fast.

project89

iTrader: (1)

that old coverter of urs will be the hot ticket for his engine
dont touch the engine at all if u want to do mods down the road pick upa spare set of heads to port , port those then get a cam and swap it in all at once , cam + ported heads at the same time is the way to go , not just cam only

C2YT

Thanks guys! I will hopefully be meeting mark this week at the track and start to get a feel for the datalogging proccess and touch on tuning.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Understand though Mark your speaking from just one engine's experience. It's possible these little engines can take a beating, who knows for sure, every engine is different, and it also depends on how well it was maintained all these years. Injectors get clogged, one may have run too lean all this time causing a compromised piston, now suddenly your throwing boost at it. How will he know just by looking at it, he won't. I myself found myself comparing the LC2 with other engines years back, I used to go on and on about it being "cast" from the factory and can take a tremendous pounding, so the fair assumption was that "any" cast engine can take the same beating just like an LC2, but on the contrary, they can't. The LC2, although cast, has an extremely strong crank that is strengthened in key areas by the factory. The rockers too, much stronger, are shaft mounted, have stronger pushrods, I could go on and on. So much stronger, yet despite that added strength I have seen quite a few of those break down right in front of me with perfect tuning. Things happen, and it's a horrible feeling to tell someone "you'll be fine", and then they suddenly break down. What do you say to them afterward? But I digress. I hope it does work out for him, I really do. As for being on a budget, sadly there is no such thing. Spend the money where it counts. Five hundred dollars for an SFI-6 that does everything a FAST XFI system does at only a quarter of the price is most certainly for the budget oriented, and is an absolute bargain. I haven't tuned or seen a prom in years, nor have I tuned with or seen my laptop in months...

C2YT

I understand that the SFI-6 is a great system for a great price, but that doesn't particularly mean it is budget oriented. It is a great option for someone with a little change in their pocket but not for a 17 year old making slightly more than minimum wage. Thank you for bringing it up though, it may be a future purchase.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Seventeen lol??? OMG, that changes everything lol!!!!!!!! (kidding). My goodness, with no mortgage or rent (assuming your still living at home with your parents) you should be able to save that money very quickly, but yes, maybe the SFI-6 is a little too much at this point. Either way will keep poking in to see how your coming along...

- Rob

C2YT

Yep. I plan on saving my next few paychecks but it's going to take a few weeks. Hopefully the ball will start rolling shortly and I'll have some updates.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

How about my experience with several, maybe dozens of 60 degree V6s? They will take a beating in stock form and built up. They are really quite under-rated. I've beat on all generations of 660 with and without boost, hybrids, stock, built, etc. I have found as long as you don't do anything really stupid, like lean out way too much, or run the same oil for 5 years, they really are quite stout.

About that cast piston comment. I've used nothing but cast pistons in all of my engines, again, without failure so far, and that ranges from 4 cyls to V8s, with and without boost. I have found that cast pistons will work for most people's applications. The number of people that actually need to go forged is a lot less than the number of people using forged.

Every engine type will have failures at some point, all engines also have "factory freaks" that seem to be way more than they should be. But just about any engine will take a reasonable amount of beating on, and typically more boost than people want to believe, because someone, at some point made the statement that a factory stock engine can only take 8 PSI of boost before failing. This may be true of a few people's engines, where something was overlooked, or something went wrong, but is certainly the exception in my experience.

Basically, if the person building, installing and tuning the set-up pays attention to the details, any engine can take a reasonable amount of abuse and live a long life. Even engines I consider to be "junk" can do this, but that doesn't mean I'd ever use them.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

As Mark has said, the '7730 will work just fine, for your needs. No need to re-wire, just change the MAP sensor to a 2 or 3 BAR MAP (depending on the actual code you end up using), program an EEPROM with a base tune and start from there. Better yet, get an emulator and be able to tune in real time.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

... as already mentioned, it depends on the condition of his engine, and how well it has been maintained over the years. No offense to the original poster because he is exploring the realm of turbo's, but, someone would have to be absolute idiot to slap a turbo onto a used engine that makes under 200 factory horsepower, which cheap stock parts, old and questionable head gaskets, stock weak rings prone to breaking, stock flywheel designed for the stock rate of acceleration, and expect it to live based on others' builds who happen to be lucky, or who just don't mention when they break down to save face. Nobody in their right mind would build an engine that way, they would use it as a mock up for an engine and trans combo that has been built properly to take the constant abuse. Anyone can "say" they have run cast parts from a naturally aspirated and used engine all they want, but it isn't quite factual because its based on their words alone, and there are plenty of carnage cases in which engines have succumbed to based on the very thing in which I am pointing out. Post up your build(s) and let me take a look at them. To think that GM would have installed quality parts on an engine never destined to make more horsepower than the amount that they did is laughable because GM was all about saving their pennies. Like I said, if it works out for him, then that is great, but most of the time members will never ever post up when something fails, and new members reading along will get the impression that they last a long time, when they simply don't. In normal cases, MLS gaskets cause problems for stock parts because they hold boost very well, so we get aftermarket parts and no longer worry about it, we don't go with cheap head gaskets all the time and "hope" they go first and not a connecting rod so we can change them repeatedly. That is ridiculous. Sticky tires cause problems for stock transmissions and rearends, so we beef them up properly and keep the power on the ground, we don't run close to bald tires to save the drivetrain, that completely defeats the purpose. I mean come on, this is common sense 101.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I guess the multiple stock internally 660s making more thsn twice the hp are all lies?

Also I see people posting about their failures, some even bragging about them.

My current 3500 is stock except for the valve springs, since they are a known weak point. The main, rod and head bolts have all been upgraded to ARP, because I could and had the bottom end apart anyway. Upper ring gaps were also opened slightly for piece if mind. Previously I had a completely stock 3500, except for the aforementioned valve springs.

So far this engine in either iteration has LOVED the 10 psig of boost I have thrown at it. Stock cast pistons that show ZERO signs of failing or stress damage.

I did take out a headgasket because I push beyond the limits of what I knew was good. I used low octane fuel and had too much timing in it, but I knew the risks and found that limit. I would never recommend anyone do what I did, so it's not really idicative of what the engine can take. I'd be throwing more at it already, but my gear is far too short, so I need to change those out before pushing it any farther. BTW, math from trap and e.t. suggests that the engine itself is making between 360 and 380 in it's current form, getting near double what it it's rated at, which is around 205. It won't take much to get to that double the stock hp rating either.

Other previous engines have followed similar recipes. I have yet to do more than damage a head gasket with any of them. Most ended up making around twice the power of stock, if not more. Not all have been GM either.

Mars is running a stock 3900, with a cam swap (to get around the VVT) and valve springs, with last I heard about 15 PSIG of boost. The math on his MPH and e.t.s suggest his engine is making more than 500 hp, over twice what stock rating is.

Not to mention the number of stock iron head 60 degree V6s on this board and others that made more than twice their rated power reliably, some were even high milage engines that didn't fail.

So you can drink the aftermarket manufacturers kool-aid if you want believing the theories that companies penny pinch that causes engines to be weak. I however will follow the truth that even stock engines are far more robust than those aftermarket companies trying to sell you parts will have you believe.

Gumby

Why the turbo with waste gate I brought up, bone stock no mod, should stick to the 7-8psi those are set at, plus less crap to hook up......

C2YT

Pulled the trigger and bought the ALDL Cable, Moates Burn2, and Moates GP1 Package. Updates will be comming soon, but paychecks come in every 2 weeks... and they are pretty tiny lol

C2YT

Got the moates equipment last week, ALDL cable should be here tomorrow afternoon. Had some shipping issues with USPS.

C2YT

A better place to post this might be in the DIY Prom area, but I figure most of the guys here know about tuning the 3.1l. Attached is a log from tonight... the car ran horrible. The more help here the better, I appreciate any input.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I'll look at it after work if I can.

Few questions. Did you preform idle relearn, since you took the ecm outta the car and back in. Also I'm questing that you could have been in limp home mode. Did it idle normal on start up or was it idleing high and not dropping as it warmed up?

C2YT

Thank mark, I will do an idle relearn when I get home. And yes, the car idled high on start up and then dropped down as it warmed up. It did this every time I started it up after the G1 Adapter install.

C2YT

Turns out I had the old memcal flipped on the adapter. It was throwing code 41 at me and ran rich as a pig. When I took the chip out the car would instantly die, not go into limp home mode. Good information for anyone else who may screw up the install, I feel like and idiot!

Car feels back to normal again, can't wait to learn and make adjustments. Very excited!

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Easy mistake. No biggie. I'll hope on the computer tonight and check out the log and see what ya got

C2YT

Picked up a used Innovate Motorsports LC1 Wideband last night. Next paycheck I will start to order the turbo components. Getting excited!