Kishan

Background story: I have a 89 T/A (Auto) shell i had bought to fix up. I had swapped over the entire wiring harness and ecm from my 2.8 MPFI 86 bird (manual) to the 89 T/A shell. I have already already cut the floor ready for the T5. This is where it pretty much ended after fixing the floor board then coating the inside of the entire car with undercoating, plus insulating the inside with double sided Reflectix aluminum wrap (got a huge roll for a ridiculously low price, couldn't refuse lol).

While the car sat for awhile, ive started to collect items for my hybrid build. I had bought a donor 94-95 camaro with a 3.4 in it and had pulled off a set of 3500 and 3400 Cylinder heads, LIM's, UIM's, fuel rails and throttle bodies, that we happened to scrap at our garage.

Now i just feel a little overwhelmed lol

Recently i have decided to use the entire 3500 top end for the 3.4 build. so far i have dissemmsbled the heads to put new valve seals and lap them aswell. i checked with some varsol and blew a lil compressed air into the port to check for leaks, and she put out a few tiny bubbles. is there such thing as some leakage allowed? or am i going to have to send em out to grind and resurface. i called a few places and im looking at around $450 for both heads re and re. The gentleman said that their known to warpage and should get em resurface.

As for pistons im going to use the 3400 pistons i had saved of the scrap van. But it had close to 300xx kms on it. for the $200 or so its gona cost me for pistons should i just get a set from summit? i also do plan on turboing it later on down the line. Also what if i left the 3.4 pistons in there? i kno it would bump the compression up to 10-11:1 or so but now ill be in need of a tune......

This is another area i haven't set my foot in either and am very lost.... i think this part is what has me at a hault. i believe i remember reading that some members used the 3400 pistons to lower the CR and could still drive the car with out having to worry about detonation or pinging. i guess what im getting at here is, as of right now i have the 86 MPFI 2.8 ECM inside my T/A. I also have the ECM and motor wiring off the 3.4 motor on the side, would i be able to use the 2.8 ecm and do tuning and stuff or am i going to need to run another computer..

For me, rewiring or repining isnt the issue, i just need a helping hand in the right direction to go with this build.

thanks in advance for those who took the time to read!

heres a lil sneak peak of my heads and engine bay



the shitty camera phone doesn't really do the bay any justice.. looks much better in person

broke91firebird

I can't wait to see your build finished. I am currently working on a similar build.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Looks good so far.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Motivation you said? Ok.... here is some. a turbo hybrid thirdgen beating up on some badd V8s..its turboed but still....its a hybrid. So get some motivation bud and keep working on it!


Vid may only work on computers and not phones...sorry.

Kishan

Neither can I lol its been way too long 😅😂. How far are you into your build?

Kishan

Thanks for the support guys, much appreciated. Man that hybrid is a beast💪 what kind of ecm are you using or are you using a standalone system ?

Kishan

Isn't it nice when things work out 😆😆

Had some time at the garage before I went home tonight. Managed to drill and extract two broken exhaust bolts from one cylinder head.. still have to relap and recheck 3 valve for leaks (2 exhaust & 1 intake), probably do it tomorrow. But I've heard the exhaust valves and seats, pit very badly on these heads. I'm hopping I'll get them to seat/seal properly.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

The stock 7730 ecm. Moates equipment with tuner pro rt. I'm running a $59 mask though. It's a nice set up and low cost.

broke91firebird

Currently I am waiting for my block (3.4 bored .020 over) to return from the engine builder. It is going to be fully internally balanced with forged pistons and I am having him install pins in the #2 and 3 main caps to prevent them from walking. Then I need to reassemble the heads and gasket match everything. While I am hopeful of finishing it on time to hit up the Power Tour this year, m schooling (welding) is taking up most of my time so I'm not sure if its going by completed before I leave.

What cam are you going with in yours?

Kishan

when im at that stage im definitely going to be picking your brain for some parts numbers lol. I took a look at the moates website and its completely new territory for me.

what is your opinion on running a standalone vs a stock ecm such as your 7730?

Kishan

Im in the mist of tearing the 3.4 apart. what kind of gains are you expecting from boring out your motor .020 over? i called the machine shop and they want $250-300 to clean out the block and bore it over. just trying to determine if i should... im already going to be buying new pistons from summit to lower the CR.

As for the cam im still undecided, ive been doing some reading and some people went with either a 260 or 270 grind cam if i can remember correctly. im going to gather all my stuff then probably call up delta or summit to see how they direct me to go.

Kishan

Started tearing her down.

for those that used the 3500 heads on a 3.4 block, did you reuse the 3.4 timing cover, water pump, oil pan and accessory brackets?


in my cause im wondering if i should just swap over the 2.8 stuff to the 3.4 engine just like KED85 did in his "How to do the 3.4 long block swap Boogie! "

i would prefer using a serpentine belt setup instead of v belts. but i guess when it comes time to mock up the set up i can decide then.

cosmick

Then you just end up with maybe 160 HP at best, and I've been daily-driving a stock '94 3.4, it isn't enough power.

broke91firebird

I'm not expecting any noticeable gains with such a small amount. It was done by the guy who started the buI'll to straighten the cylinders out. It was a high milage motor.
I will say that Delta has better prices on cams and the phone guys are quite helpful. $99 for their 270 grind.

Kishan

so its been awhile since i updated or worked on the project. Between finishing up for my 310s, fully licensed mechanic now by the way and a break up Ive kept the project on the back burner.

last night i decided to continue on and started triming the timing cover for the LIM clearance.

Kishan

i had seemed to had lost all my links i had saved on the 3x00 top end swap. no matter how hard i search i cant seem to find the links or the info i need. i remember reading about Drilling into the LIM or thermostat housing for the CTS?
If anyone remembers any small details about the swap can you chime in? trying to get this project done before the summer ends.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h800p

also are those the pistons i should be getting to lower the CP ratio? dish if i remember correctly. I'm also having trouble deciding on cam selection or duration. if anybody can point me in the correct direction that would be awesome thanks!

project89

iTrader: (1)

check ebay for the pistions

u can get keith black , engine tech , or sealed powe rpistions for around 30-50$ if u look around and have patience

i know for a fact u could prolly snag a set right now in the 90-120$ range

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

On the bottom pic you can tap out that hole for a 1/2 npt and then toss in a 1/2 3/8 bushing and toss in the coolent sensor for you guages. That's what I did the size is perfect no need to even drill it out.


As for a cam.. is this going to be a na engine? Something in the area of a advertised 270 272 area cam would wake it up and remain decent on the street. Is it a automatic? Stock stall or aftermarket?

koolchriscamaro

How is this project going? I have a running 3.4/3500 in my 95 Camaro so if you need any help then feel free to ask.

Current setup: 3.4/3500 with 3400 pistons, T5, and 3.42 gears

Soon to be: Supercharged 3.4/3500, T56, and 4.11 gears

Kishan

Hey koolchirscamaro, I'm going to be purchasing all my engine item shortly but am confused on what head gaskets I should go with... 3.4,3400 or 3500?
It's a 3.4 block with 3500 head and dished pistons from summit hp800 for the 3.4 block.
What did you use?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Always match the head gasket to the pistons you run. So you end up getting the correct comp distance and quench. So if you are using fwd heads piston get the corresponding head gaskets to match.

Kishan

That's what's im a little lost about. The heads are from a fwd 3500 but when ordering the dishes pistons the application was for a rwd 3.4

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

You have a 3.4l block though right? Get pistons and head gaskets to match the 3400 fwd. Such as pistons for a 2003 impala exc. Just be mindful of the compression distance so you get the correct dish iirc the comp distance is 1.478

You can use rwd pistons as well and iirc with 3500 heads the comp ratio ends up arround 11.5:1 which is stout to say the least but Im not sure if you want to be that extreme or not.

https://m.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h847cp

Kishan

Thanks fasteddi, yes I have a 3.4 block. I was going to buy the wrong pistons all this time with a compression distance of 1.450 in.
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h800p

So I'll pick up these pistons instead https://m.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h847cp with matching head gaskets from a 03 impala.

Has anyone ran into problems of water jackets not lining up because of using 3500 heads with 3400 head gaskets?

Kishan

I'm leaving to Japan tomorrow so I'll be placing my order tonight. Hopefully they will be here when I'm back

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The coolant ports in the heads are the same between 3400 and 3500.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yea if you would have gotten the 1.45 comp distance heads the compression would be arround 11.5:1 or higher which is ok if your using 93 octane and a good tune. But for most it can be more tricky to tune. 847s are good pistons and the right ones to run for moderate compression. When you get rings just be attentive of the rings. 1.2 1.5 4.0mm get some moly coated ones for scuff resistance.

Also be attentive to the over bore if your cylinders are bored out. Mines not on my 3400 but back when i had my 3.1l i had it bored .020 for the longest time. I just dont wana see you get the wrong size. FYI 92mm is std. bore on the 3.4

Exspencive link but you can see what youll need here. This is what I ran on a 3.4/3400 hybrid and they work fine.
http://www.autozone.com/internal-eng...uestid=4962955

Cant wait to see you build come together. Have fun flying over the big pond.

Kishan

Okay so while ordering the part I came into a a little problem...
The camshaft I'm purchasing apparently is only good for years 1991 - 1994
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl16-233-4
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl16-233-4

Now since I scraped my donor I don't remember weather it was a 94 or 95 rag top. While talking to a rep, he said the 95 computer or engine sensors were diffrent and wouldn't run right.
Is there a way I tell off the block itself before I get the wrong cam?

Also it says valve springs required... are the ones off the 3500 heads not strong enough?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

That cam you have linked is fine for your engine. The 260h is a pretty common ppl use in our engines.

FYI all 2.8 3.1 3.4l gen1 iron head engines cams are interchangable. The only time it comes into question is if you have a 3.4l you need to have a 3.4l cam because of the sfi fuel injection. It has a wheel on it with notches for the cam position sensor. But you can use a 3.4l cam in a 2.8 or 3.1. Know what I mean?

I'd get a delta cam though with lifters. Will cost almost 100 bucks less and be the same thing...

Kishan

Thanks fasteddi,
What do you think about the valve springs on the 3500 heads? Should I replace them or should they be okay not to worry about coil binding with the new cam?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

With a 260 cam and the stock 1.6 rockers you won't bind and will be fine. If you plan to be reving the snot outta the car then you will want some new springs or if you go bigger then 260 on the cam get better valves springs like the comp cam 26986 behive springs I have. But they aren't cheep. But I highly reccomend those springs. Very good behives. And they drop right in. Easy replacement.

I ran the stock 3400 springs with a small shim to get the seat pressure up on my turbo set up with a delta 260 cam for quite some time. It definitly had some valve float when reved over about 5500. I don't reccomend stockers if you go wild and turbo it and such....

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The valve springs were the very first thing I replaced on my 3500 when I installed it in my 240Z...

The valve springs are quite weak on these engines and are very poor for even a mild performance application.

IIRC the LX9 uses the same valve springs as the LA1 and L82, which when I used the L82 in my turbo hybrid years ago, I'd get float at about 5600 RPM or so, with my 260 cam.

Kishan

Okay cool comp cam 26986 springs.
Got off the phone with the summit rep and he said I might need machining to have them fit on the 3500 heads.
Just wanted to double check with everyone before I purchased them.

Did you have to do any modifying to make them fit? Also will the stock retainers and keepers work fine?
Thanks guys! And by the looks of it everything shall be at my door step by Nov 2nd 😁😁😆😆

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I have 3400 heads and they fit in perfecty. Didn't need to change anything. I thought 3500 heads were the same when it comrs to the springs but hopefully someone can chime and say the same. The stock retainers and locks will work as well, again I know this forsure on gen 3 3100 3400 heads.

You will like those springs and they alow for a ton of lift. About .550 easy and safely which is alot on our v6s. The bind hight is very low.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I don't recall if it's those springs that I used, but I believe they are and although they fit tight over the seal, they fit on with no machining.

Kishan

https://m.summitracing.com/parts/cca-980-12

What are your guys opinion on these springs? The rep from comp cams said these are a direct drop in. As for the 26985 springs they might require modding to fit.

Kishan

The order has been placed with matching keepers and retainers.

Now we play the waiting game lol

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I had those on my iron head engines before. They are sorta is a down grade because they are not behive style. But itll work and have better pressures then stock behives.

Kishan

So Installed the new valve springs but the tip of the valve stem is now too flush with the retainer.
According to the rep at summit and comp cams all three items were correct and a direct drop in for the 3500 heads. I'm a little stumped here on what I should do? Try a diffrent set of retainers and keepers or buy longer valves? The rep was talking about shims but wouldn't that only increase spring pressure not really elevate the valve tip where it needs to be above the keepers?



Valves are too flush with the retainers.



Stock 3500 behive springs on the left<br/>Comp cams spring on the right

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Definitely not right and will cause you problems.
|
This is why it's recommended to stick with the beehive style so that the stock retainers can be used.

you could try some different locks to get the retainer to sit lower. I don't know which retainers to recommend, but there are some that will make the retainer sit lower for this very reason. It will also increase the seat pressure slightly as well since the spring will be slightly more compressed.

Yes, any shims will only increase seat pressure, not move the retainer down.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I agree with 6. That definitly is not right. And what ever summit guy you talked to messed up a bit. Those retainers are not right at all. I had 980s on my iron head engine, one time i tossed the springs on my fwd heads because i was on a budget and did want to pay 160 bucks for the good beehive ones. Well they worked fine but i also used the retainers that were stock off my 3.1L.
Im not sure what retainers they gave you but they seem to be shorter in hight over the locks themselves. Since you have the same valves, the lock is in the same place as before, its the retainer itself that is off, its lock is higher on its body then say your stock FWD ones.

Since you already have the springs is there a junk yard arround or a place where you can get some retainers of a 2.8 3.1 3.4l iron headed RWD engine? It might be worth a try... If not maybe call summit back ask for the guy you talked to before and tell them they don't fit correctly and see if you can send them back. But regardless you can run your car like it is now, it will cause some problems.


If you get the 26986 behive comp cam springs like i have, you can run the stock retainers, locks, seats, exc, literly a drop in and will last for years have great bind height and be a all around perfect spring for you.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i think he just put the locks in the wrong groove on the valves

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

A longer valve or different spring is not going to affect anything. The relationship/distance of the upper groove on the valve has the final say as to how much it will stick out of the retainer once the keeper is locked into place. Take a good look at your picture again, it looks like you have the stock retainers (the two on the left) upside down, which will cause the valve stem to appear higher, while increasing spring pressure a tad. The center slope of the retainer dish needs to face downward when put on top of the valve spring, from what I am looking at the two on the left look upside down...

project89

iTrader: (1)

2 on the left are installed correctly, thats what the factory retianers look like installed

project89

iTrader: (1)

somone remind me the valve stem size on the fwd motors please

isnt the rwd stuff 11/32 and the fwd stuff smaller ?

601-12 is for 11/32 valve stems

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

If that is how the factory retainer is installed, then the difference is in the design of the retainer.

How many grooves are on a 3500 valve?

project89

iTrader: (1)

i dont know on a 3500 , i cant even recall how many grooves were on the valves in the 3400 i just did last week lol.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I ran a quick search just to see, but what is coming up in the search only shows one groove on the 3.5 valve, not sure if that is accurate as I never worked on a 3500 before. I think he will be fine though, as the stock retainer is more symbol shaped to accommodate the stock beehive springs. So ultimately the Summit Tech was right to give him those retainers,as they are more flat to accommodate the spring he chose to go with. It's more of an illusion than anything else...

project89

iTrader: (1)

fromt he picture it shows the vavle stem below the top of the retainer , even if its flush it wont work , vlave stem has to stick up

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Look at the picture again, so long as the keeper is locked into place, the valve is being held into position correctly. The reason why I thought that stock retainers were upside down at first is because I now realize he is showing a picture of two stock springs, stock retainers, and stock keepers compared to one aftermarket spring, aftermarket retainer, and aftermarket keeper. The design of the parts is what's throwing you off. If anything he may need to reuse the stock keepers, because if you look carefully at this picture, the aftermarket keepers may be too loose. Look at the bottom one, which is the aftermarket one. Both sides of the keeper are flush, they may be a little too big in terms of width.