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Just picked up a late 80's Firebird to play with, and I decided I'm going to do something with it. Not really setting a goal for myself per se, but I want a good looking car that runs easy 11.50's, while getting good gas mileage. So this is what I am starting with; a 2.8 V6 w/700R4 and 3.42 gears out back. Planning on lightening up this girl so I won't need a tremendous amount of boost pressure to reach those times, but she'll need to run right, and hook. Mods that are coming;
* EBL Flash, converting the stock '302 on over to it (easy peasy).
* 60# injectors, could go with less but I already have them...
* Turbo headers, undecided just yet still planning how I want them routed.
* Turbo, Intercooler and wastegate; T66, 3" IC, and 44mm.
Car still has AC and I am keeping it, which is why I am still at the planning stages for the turbo system. Not sure yet on valve train, still in the gathering phase, although I am sticking with the stock heads and intake system. May just go with custom cam, springs/retainers, pushrods and lifters. Already ran a compression check which gave me flying colors, which is why I don't want to pull them. Anyways, not really a, well, I guess it is a goal. Let's see how it turns out. No hybrids, no other engines, just sticking with what the factory gave me, including the tranny. Not sure what I am doing yet with the stall speed, might cheap out and go 2400-RPM autozone special, but we'll see. Cooking something up for the factory rear too. I'll update as it all happens...
I'm coming for you Dave, gonna blow your times out of the water with the little motor that could...
11.50s with stock irons heads..exc. I hope you get that but it'll be awful tough. I won't say impossible but tough and to be reliable too.. $$$$$
I'll never say anything is impossible because I sure never thought I'd run mid 12 with iron heads and cheep set up I had. So anything possible I suppose.
But anyone that want to turbo there 6.... I'm supporting them 100 percent. I'm sure you'll make a bad azz set up rob. I can't wait to see what you put together
he knows what hes doing he helped me with my car long enough. i doubt hes going to do it with a 2.8 though , should go mid to low 12's with the 2.8 though
Just sorting out some other issues first. Had the lights, heater and wipers on coming back from the store a few minutes ago, and the voltage plummeted, so I need a new alternator. I'm thinking to keep things simple so I may emulate a GN turbo header setup with a crossover underneath, then bringing the turbo about a foot more forward passed the accessory belts on the passenger side, but still facing it forward being that the MAF sensor is getting tossed anyway. Fourth or fifth hardtop I have owned in a very long time. Yeah, I know the stock heads will be the biggest bottleneck for me, but I think I can pull it off with the right cam, stall and turbo. I'm glad to see that Harwood still sells lexan rear glass and fiberglass rear decks. Should knock quite a bit of weight off...
Mark I haven't seen that picture in a long time lol. Caught that movie in the East Brunswick Square Mall back in 2001, you wouldn't even recognize that movie theater anymore Dave; although plenty of 4G63's and S20's still rocking the streets over here...
Lex. Rear and fiberglass hood will help. Make that puppy as light as you can!! One question though... why not port the heads? Just to see what a stocker can do?
Lex. Rear and fiberglass hood will help. Make that puppy as light as you can!! One question though... why not port the heads? Just to see what a stocker can do?
When I was rolling with Dave when he still lived here in New Jersey, I was helping him with his V6, and I still remember his setup, what it was lacking, and what was wrong with it. Small injectors, tiny turbo, although he ported the setup, but I don't remember the camshaft, it might have been a Delta, I don't remember the specs. It was supposed to be a TCI 4500 stall, but Shawn couldn't flash it that high, but that might have been because an ignition problem that plagued the car, it wasn't advancing because he piggybacked an MS to the stock '302 ECM. Best I seen with that setup was 13.0 @ 104, but the sixty foot should have been two to three tenths lower because of the stall and ignition issue, it only cut like a 1.90, so call it low to mid 12's with that setup with a better sixty foot and advancing ignition. Once he stepped up to the 60-1 turbo, the car was an entirely different animal, but still plagued by the ignition issue, and he never got the chance to run it at the track with that turbo. I'm going with a T66 turbo, and my stall will definitely flash close to three grand, and I might even just spend the money and get a better one because power seems to kick in close to four grand, and a cam and ported heads will only raise it even higher. So maybe I will go with a 3500 stall if I can find one. No ignition issues for me though, as the EBL Flash will really dial this puppy in for boost. I think the right combo of turbo and cam will get there, combined with the right weight and right launch. We'll see though, as it's going to be a long winter because I am working on that turbo 305 as well, but I will at least get a baseline before the track closes with this car...
When I was rolling with Dave when he still lived here in New Jersey, I was helping him with his V6, and I still remember his setup, what it was lacking, and what was wrong with it. Small injectors, tiny turbo, although he ported the setup, but I don't remember the camshaft, it might have been a Delta, I don't remember the specs. It was supposed to be a TCI 4500 stall, but Shawn couldn't flash it that high, but that might have been because an ignition problem that plagued the car, it wasn't advancing because he piggybacked an MS to the stock '302 ECM. Best I seen with that setup was 13.0 @ 104, but the sixty foot should have been two to three tenths lower because of the stall and ignition issue, it only cut like a 1.90, so call it low to mid 12's with that setup with a better sixty foot and advancing ignition. Once he stepped up to the 60-1 turbo, the car was an entirely different animal, but still plagued by the ignition issue, and he never got the chance to run it at the track with that turbo. I'm going with a T66 turbo, and my stall will definitely flash close to three grand, and I might even just spend the money and get a better one because power seems to kick in close to four grand, and a cam and ported heads will only raise it even higher. So maybe I will go with a 3500 stall if I can find one. No ignition issues for me though, as the EBL Flash will really dial this puppy in for boost. I think the right combo of turbo and cam will get there, combined with the right weight and right launch. We'll see though, as it's going to be a long winter because I am working on that turbo 305 as well, but I will at least get a baseline before the track closes with this car...
A hd61 high stall from advanced will work wonders when your up to or below 400hp. The down track efficiency sucks but it'll work. The high stall model advertises 2800-3000 rpm but obviously with increased tq it'll only up when I ran it into the 11s it was flashing 4k at the line building a few psi of boost.
You could always get the custom mid grade converter from edge ptc abbruzze for 450 bucks before tax shipping. A freakshow as well will make one up or ya.
Going ms then? Not gm ecm..
Let me know if you need any parts. I got plenty of cams exc laying arround still. I don't have alot of specific iron head things but I do have alot of 660 stuff in general.
I'll still never forget back when you Dave and Chris helped me with my set up such a tiny turbo I started with. Went 14s then 13s. Then got that gt35 which was a huge difference and ran 12s and 11s with that. Then the big s366 was the best by far. Laggy but I could make 120mph trap speeds on 14 psi of boost..
I have a multitude of 2 1/2 inch piping couplers reducers 90s that I need gone. I'll sell them dirt cheep to ya. I got a god speed wastegate. And a delta 260 and a crower big azz cam.. lol
we got a couple 1.70's outs of it one night with shawn leaving on 2-3 psi
It's been awhile, don't remember much of it. I do remember installing that 60-1, you and Paul fiddling with that manual boost controller, and the engine being an animal afterward. That was the day I took those two videos in front of his house, with you almost losing control lol.
It's been awhile, don't remember much of it. I do remember installing that 60-1, you and Paul fiddling with that manual boost controller, and the engine being an animal afterward. That was the day I took those two videos in front of his house, with you almost losing control lol.
yeah we took it back to the track 2 times with the 60-1 it went faster , still the funniest thing paul towing it to the track for me with that lil s10 blazer, every time he towed with that thing i thought wed slide off the road or something for sure towing with that lil truck
yeah we took it back to the track 2 times with the 60-1 it went faster , still the funniest thing paul towing it to the track for me with that lil s10 blazer, every time he towed with that thing i thought wed slide off the road or something for sure towing with that lil truck
I have more videos, but my main PC went bad for some reason, the system registry suddenly was missing a few things for the load up, so I can only use that PC's hard drive as a slave drive for my laptop, but I have to get the right wire though to hook it up for that, not sure where to get one locally. Well I do, just been lazy lol. But yeah, I even have some video of everyone under your Camaro on Paul's lift, funny as hell stuff, Mark would get a kick out of it. Think he is still using that truck to pull his GN's to the track lol. Funny stuff.
Putting on the fronts as I write this. The car needs body work in the quarters, but I'll worry about that when I start prepping for paint. Going with a 91/92 Formula front and rear bumper, then painting the whole car Pearl White. Should get it done fairly quick, then I'll start working on the bruiser part with the turbo system...
Alright guys, took advantage of the last hour or so of this beautiful day and fabricated a better CAI for the engine. I'm doing this because I first want to get the engine running like a top and on the road with the stock stuff before swapping to the EBL Flash. So far I think the stock MAF sensor is shot, almost positive it is without even testing it or datalogging the engine. Good thing is they are cheap as hell, I have something I can bring back to autozone and swap for it straight up, so it works out. Anyways, not much to post up other than the CAI, so I'll share a few pics of it. I fabricated it from pieces that I still had left over from my turbo GTA setup. As far as the turbo for this one goes, there is no question I will be running a short tube header on the drivers side, into the passenger header, then in front of the alternator. So much to work with, especially for a 3" downpipe with the AC in tact. Gotta love these little motors lol. She's dirty, I know I know, and there's a leaf in the air filter lol. Gonna drill some holes in the top of the lid to allow more air into the engine...
Well this will be a fun little project. Can't wait to see what you do with it.
I haven't been in this V6 section for a long time, it's pretty cool to see some of the combinations members went with, I'm especially liking the newer GM engines being put into these cars like the 3500. I have seen it a lot and for years on the Import side, so I'm glad our members finally caught on. What I am asking from this engine may be a little much, but the journey is the fun part whether the goal is met or not, so we'll see what happens...
I pulled the vacuum lines off of the plenum from the drivers side essentially eliminating the cruise control and the wiper reservoir for the time being, don't need cruise control, and I can always install an electric reservoir if need be. Will do the passenger side soon, which will eliminate the EGR and CCP vacuum lines. Once I pull the EGR crap off, and take off that alternator rear bracket, there will be plenty of room next to the AC box. Already sourced an FMIC, going to run it the same way I have it with my GTA, just a smaller 3" core as opposed to a 4" with the GTA. Will have the tubes running parallel with the radiator both to and from, so no need to move the battery, which is good.
Other than that I need to get the body, paint and interior done immediately, as my sister in law tells me that I am turning into a hillbilly before her very eyes lol. Rims and tires already started to change the car's demeanor, but I need to slap on some paint asap. I'm thinking the hell with the 91/92 front and rear bumpers, as the stockers will look just as nice painted White with the black inserts. Either way, until the EBL Flash gets here, body, paint, interior and the rest of the exhaust is up next...
Yeah I remember that one Dave. Not feeling the spoiler though, sticks out too much. Am actually considering putting the 91/92 aero hatch that I have on the GTA onto this one, and putting the regular hatch with wrap around spoiler back on the GTA. Why I took it off to begin with I have no idea, but this one I just want the aero spoiler and stock flat hood, painted all white. I need to get a different radiator in there too, one with the inlet on the drivers side, as well as swing the intake tubing towards the battery to make way for the turbo. This is going to be a fun little car, the former owner already wants to buy it back after seeing the rims and how much better it drives lol...
Good luck with the build! I do think that you will have a hard time getting 11.50 out of it with out doing anything to the heads... so prove us wrong! I think that 12.0's are more likely.
Good luck with the build! I do think that you will have a hard time getting 11.50 out of it with out doing anything to the heads... so prove us wrong! I think that 12.0's are more likely.
It's definitely a tall order to fill, so hopefully the duration of the camshaft has the final say, although I agree that the heads are a tremendous restriction. To run that time, it's going to need between 20-25psi of boost pressure, and hopefully I will have the weight down to much less of a load bearing, I'm hoping for 3000 pounds. If I can get my hands on that TCI 4500 stall that Dave always raved about it will be a huge leap forward, because I cannot seem to find it. Not even sure if they even make them anymore, nor if they would even consider it due to the age of the transmission. We'll see though...
Why not get the speedway adapter and use a th350? That would give you more options for a converter and most likely at a better price... if not I would look into a custom built one to get the most out of your set up.
It's definitely a tall order to fill, so hopefully the duration of the camshaft has the final say, although I agree that the heads are a tremendous restriction. To run that time, it's going to need between 20-25psi of boost pressure, and hopefully I will have the weight down to much less of a load bearing, I'm hoping for 3000 pounds. If I can get my hands on that TCI 4500 stall that Dave always raved about it will be a huge leap forward, because I cannot seem to find it. Not even sure if they even make them anymore, nor if they would even consider it due to the age of the transmission. We'll see though...
they dont make them anymore , ur next best bet is to call freakshow , or use the speedway adapter to run a th350 or 2004r
also that tci was listed as an s10 pickup converter and its a 3k stall out of the box, i sent it back and had it lossened
they dont make them anymore , ur next best bet is to call freakshow , or use the speedway adapter to run a th350 or 2004r
Nah, worst comes to worst I will use the advanced auto cheapie which stalls around 2400-2500, just hope it holds. I know dozens of people running tens and even nines running a 2800 (rated) stall speed over on Turbo Buick, so a little less than that will be fine for me. A 4500 stall would have made it much easier though, but it is what it is...
Originally Posted by project89
also that tci was listed as an s10 pickup converter and its a 3k stall out of the box, i sent it back and had it lossened
I honestly shop by transmission spline count, and converter bolt distance, never simply searching F-Body, so if listed as a S10 I would have come across it in my search. Not to mention, I would never ever buy a converter for five hundred then send it back and spend another two to three hundred just to get it re-stalled, would rather just get a PTC the first time for the money. Free one time re-stalls in which manufacturers claim have their limitations, and it's usually a nonsensical claim because re-stalling by that much is quite the process for them and costs them money. It's no biggie though, it is what it is...
Trust me ive been up and down the 660 700r road alot and your best bet is to call any converter place that makes custom ones or stick with the el cheepo route which it sounds like you will be. Freakshow is one that will make you one up for 350 bucks shipped to the door. At least thats what i was quoted 3 years back for a 4k stall.
I personally just bought a PTC yea it cost upwards of $1k but i bet its dead on or close and the efficency will be very very tight up top. The freakshow i had was ok for a cheep converter. The top end efficency out of mine was arround 13 percent with a 3500 stall....
If you go the cheep route go with the 100 dollar special at autozone advanced auto. Roadking 61hd high stall(2800-3000) I ran 11s with it... but man was its efficency off the chart...lol 25% I litterly was trapping 115Mph at 6500k.... it was bad. I could flash it at 4500rpm at the line when i made 3 or 4 psi at the line.. it was hilarious seeing the datalog because it was a great converter up until you toss about 400+hp then its about worthless and will eventually kill your trans as well, just my 2 cents. Keep a eye on trans temps if you go the cheep route. A external cooler and guage will protect you if you start making some major power and race it alot...
I would much rather go the re-stalled D5 route out of a TTA's 200R4 because it shares the same spline count, and the D5 will get the job done, in fact I might just do thatg and scrap the advanced concept altogether, just need to confirm a few things first. I am not familiar with Freakshow though. By the way, your PTC cost you $1000 for a T350 trans? What did you do, fill out the spec sheet then wait for them? I'm surprised. I wish I knew, I would have asked Dusty to try and get you a better deal, especially for a non-lockup converter...
I talked with lane on the phone for along time...lol a few times. Gave him the spec sheet on the cam, the turbo im running, CI, rear end, weight, 1st gear ratio.. the list goes on. That's the going rate for the higher end ptc converter for the th350 or 400. I could have gotten one for about 450 bucks from ptc but the slip just wouldnt be as tight up top along with street manors that weren't so well when we are talking a 5k stall. So i opted for the higher end one. Basically the best i can get aside from a split apart one. I had the money for that along with the trans i have now with a brake in it so I went for it. Thats the same reason i ended up getting the turbosmart wastegate and blow off valve. Lots of overtime and just tired of using cheep crap that ill have to replace in 3 years from my 100 passes a year at the track and tons of beatings on the road.
Haha, now you know why I was pounding it into your head not to overboost to please the crowd until your forged and running a strong converter, otherwise it is like a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. I was quoted $800 for my lockup from PTC awhile back for the GTA, but I went with a TCI for about three hundred less. But yeah your car has come a long way, and I am sure you learned a lot on your journey with it. When this thing is done I am supposed to be surprising my nephew with it, but maybe I will take it by you for some action one weekend when the weather gets better in Spring, that's if the kid doesn't wreck the damn thing lol...
Haha, now you know why I was pounding it into your head not to overboost to please the crowd until your forged and running a strong converter, otherwise it is like a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. I was quoted $800 for my lockup from PTC awhile back for the GTA, but I went with a TCI for about three hundred less. But yeah your car has come a long way, and I am sure you learned a lot on your journey with it. When this thing is done I am supposed to be surprising my nephew with it, but maybe I will take it by you for some action one weekend when the weather gets better in Spring, that's if the kid doesn't wreck the damn thing lol...
Sounds good to me. You still out in NJ?
I hinkle it wasent as much as crouded pleasing as I just have something wrong with me to where I have to keep pushing the car till it breaks...lol chasing those times big time at first
Yea I've learned a lot in the past 5 years of turboing this thing. What can be over looked and what cant. And exspecially when stock parts or cheep parts just don't cut it anymore.
I hinkle it wasent as much as crouded pleasing as I just have something wrong with me to where I have to keep pushing the car till it breaks...lol chasing those times big time at first
Yea I've learned a lot in the past 5 years of turboing this thing. What can be over looked and what cant. And exspecially when stock parts or cheep parts just don't cut it anymore.
Yeah still in New Jersey but we are thinking about selling after some renovation and moving to PA, all still up in the air. Not sure if I wanna hire a contractor to do the roof, or climb up there and do it myself. Then there is the driveway, the yard, and on and on and on...
One thing members need to remember regarding horsepower is where the RPM is going to be. Traditionally, SBC guys quote horsepower between 5500-6000 because that is usually where it peaked; off the shelf grinds, factory spark cut targets, etc, so they felt compelled to quote from that general area. As RPM increases, so long as the cam is spec'd for it, you will make more horsepower. It's a given. This is why you see many boosted street Honda v-tecs running 10's and even 9's with little four bangers, some even naturally aspirated. RPM, weight and gearing is where it's at, the horsepower is easy with boost, it just becomes the matter of where you want the engine to be. I don't want to push this little engine as hard as the Import guys in terms of RPM, but it'll be up there though, so I will be getting a cam spec'd for that, combined with the right turbo. Mid elevens sounds like a lot, but it isn't. It is for a 3500 pound car and low horsepower, but not for a 2500 pound car and high horsepower, so the idea is to balance the two. It'll come down to the sixty foot, but even if the converter doesn't hold, if I trap 115-mph then mission accomplished...
If you can trap 115mph with stock heads and i mean all the way stock i will personally come out to you and shake your hand. I know im no expert but i got 105Mph trap speed and that was tough but then again i didnt jack the boost to the moon either. IIRC i was at about 16psi though that gt3582r when i made my 12.70 pass That was with a 1.64 60 foot which at the time felt like a rocket. Now a 1.6x 60 doesnt seem so fast..lol
The positive about our cars is how much they weight for sure. It didnt take me much to get mine under 3k lbs. Race weight is 3020 which is pretty good for a full interior street car in the 90s. Definitly helped that 10 bolt stay together for all those years of abuse.
When i went to NTR last year I was literly the only one there in the pro class with a licence plate or street legal car. I went 2 rounds aginst them. Ha. Dialing 11.60s racing cars double my hp and triple my CI. Stuff like that is a blast.
Whats your plans? When are you going to start to toss on turbo parts and such? Whens your goal to get it all together? Spring time.....
Hehe, I used to think the same way. It's a numbers game Mark, this is why I kept telling you that you have an eleven second car way back when you first started and you didn't believe me. The moment you have the correct sized injectors, and a turbo to distribute the right amount of boost, then the only thing that matters at that point is how much the car weighs which will dictate how much boost, and how well you launch. That's all it is. Engine size is meaningless, as larger engines need less boost, and smaller engines need more, it is just a numbers game. At 3000 pounds (once I get it down there) the 2.8 engine needs to make 400 horsepower to reach 115-mph. This is what the math states. Gearing and tire size will have a slight affect where the RPM hovers which helps dial in your rate of acceleration, but the bottom line is 3000 pounds, 400 horsepower, and hopefully a solid 1.7x/1.6x sixty foot with good converter. As far as the turbo goes, I need to get my hands on a shorty header setup, then I can start fabricating. This engine is so damn tiny, pulling the engine to install the stall converter will be a damn breeze compared to my other turbo project which I did a few weeks ago lol...
Hey guys, it's a little late but Happy New Year. Had to step away from my toys for awhile and focus on other things, but I figured I would update this thread being I finally have some time off from work. Been using this 2.8 Firebird locally whenever I have the chance so far, car still runs like a top. Did not order the EBL Flash for it yet, but I did get a new MAF sensor just to get the SES light off while I wrap up other things. Cannot tell you how many people made me an offer on this car just the way it sits, every damn Wawa I pull into it everyone wants to buy it as is, and I'm like; "why lol"...
Anyways, will be getting back into this project now.
Question though being that I never really gave much thought to a hybrid V6, when swapping the heads and intake onto the 2.8/3.1 engine from the 3.5, is there any interference with the distributor housing? Is a cam and crank signal mandatory for that swap, or can the distributor be salvaged and used? Wanted to ask some of you who did that swap about that issue, as well as the detent cable in particular, because I would need to maintain that cable. If anyone is familiar with those two issues, please share with the thread if you can, it'll make choosing the direction I go with the car faster...
Other than that I already have the 91/92 hatch with aero wing installed, but am still waiting on the front 91/92 Formula bumper and light assembly, as well as the rear bumper. I bought an aftermarket radiator for my GTA and will be using the stock one for the 2.8 build, being that I needed a radiator with an opposing coolant routing to clear the turbo anyway. Will admit that I have gotten lazy with the headers, so I might ask Ed to make me a set like he did years back for the 2.8/3.1 that emulated the GN setup, would actually work to my favor being I am keeping the AC, and his setup clears it. Hopefully he will comply. Anyways this is where this build stands, if the 3.5 heads and intake don't workout due to any road blocks for my application, I'll need to rethink what I want to do, because I really don't want to invest the time into porting the stock stuff. Been there, done that, I sadly I have no time for that stuff anymore....
Will keep this thread alive and updated as I go...
You can't swap a 3500 head intake top end onto a 2.8 or 3.1. You can only swap on 3100 3400 stuff.
If you had a 3.4l you could toss the 3500 on it though.
Glad you are debating a hybrid swap.
Boosting iron heads is neat for the first turbo build and all but for a experienced gear head such as yourself, you may as well, at a minimum, do a hybrid swap as the power gains compared to the best ported iron heads in the world.. well its a clear difference. Lest resistance, boost more power.
On my set up when I had a 7004, I copied the degree of turn and such of the detent bracket from the 3.1l and copied it and used it on the 3400 to. No issues. I could try and dig up some pics if you like. Long as you get the geometry right it's not hard to make a new bracket so that the detent cable snaps in and works flawlessly. Drove a few k miles like that for a year and 100 or so passes before I did the th350 swap. No Trans issues. A fellow turbo thirdgen v6 member has the same Trans and converter I had as I gave it to him cheep. He's put a good amount of miles on it as well.
Mark definitely, if you could provide some pics of the fabrication that you did for the detent cable that would be great. Since I can't use the 3500 stuff, now I have a choice to make regarding the setup. If the 3400 heads and intake can be used while salvaging the distributor being used for spark reference then I will go this route, and then concoct a bracket for the detent cable similar to the example that you provide...
Not shooting for a tremendous amount of power, which is why I am keeping the 700R4 specific to that era. If the trans itself succumbs to the power, I'll just swap it out for another, but I am definitely sticking with the non-cc trans. Reduction in overall weight should help compensate for the lack in higher horsepower... and I stress should lol.
If I have to port match the 3400 heads and intake a tad no biggie, but to do what I did to the 416 heads for my 305 all over again, that is definitely out of the question, because I opened those suckers up as much as they would go, even ground down the valve guide bosses in the bowls. Would be way overkill for a mere 11 second 1/4 mile...
Mark's trans has held up great in my car, I think I put about 2500-3000 miles on it this summer.
I agree with mark on the hybrid setup too, as that is the direction I'm going next. Might as well do it right the first time I think. Can't wait to see it start to come together though.
Mark's trans has held up great in my car, I think I put about 2500-3000 miles on it this summer.
I agree with mark on the hybrid setup too, as that is the direction I'm going next. Might as well do it right the first time I think. Can't wait to see it start to come together though.
I think a lot of you guys are going to like the very high stall speed I go with, just need to mod whichever heads I go with to take the RPM abuse. Will throw the go-pro on the driver window interior next to my head facing the windshield making sure you see the RPM gauge as well, then go out hunting some prey. Gonna have some fun with this thing...
I think a lot of you guys are going to like the very high stall speed I go with, just need to mod whichever heads I go with to take the RPM abuse. Will throw the go-pro on the driver window interior next to my head facing the windshield making sure you see the RPM gauge as well, then go out hunting some prey. Gonna have some fun with this thing...
Spring will be here in no time...
I will dig up some of those pictures hopefully I can find them that was about 3 or 4 years ago. I can tell you right now that the stock heads on a 3400 love RPMs up to 6500 all day long. So if you just put them out do some Balboa work put in a decent size cam the single scream all the way up to 7 Grand all day long.
I think you guys will like my set up when I get to race at this spring and has ptc 5000 RPM stall converter in it. I worked the heads a little bit more as well mainly the Bowes this winter. And with the cam I have in it it should easily make power up to about 6800 I hope. I always used to shift at about 6200 because anything higher and the car would actually go slower but now with the bigger converter and the little bit of work on the heads and the cam it should help out a bit. But we all know how that goes I will find out the first time I go down that track
I think a lot of you guys are going to like the very high stall speed I go with, just need to mod whichever heads I go with to take the RPM abuse. Will throw the go-pro on the driver window interior next to my head facing the windshield making sure you see the RPM gauge as well, then go out hunting some prey. Gonna have some fun with this thing...
Spring will be here in no time...
I will dig up some of those pictures hopefully I can find them that was about 3 or 4 years ago. I can tell you right now that the stock heads on a 3400 love RPMs up to 6300 all day long. So if you just port them out do some bowl work, put in a decent size cam the thing will cream all the way up to 7 Grand all day long if the set ups right. And once you get it on the track or dyno then you can tell how high it really makes horsepower. No point and shifting higher if it doesn't make power up there.
I think you guys will like my set up when I get to race at this spring and has ptc 5000 RPM stall converter in it. I worked the heads a little bit more as well mainly the Bowes this winter. And with the cam I have in it it should easily make power up to about 6800 I hope. I always used to shift at about 6200 because anything higher and the car would actually go slower but now with the bigger converter and the little bit of work on the heads and the cam it should help out a bit. But we all know how that goes I will find out the first time I go down that track.
It is much more difficult/labour intensive to keep the dizzy when going with a gen3 top end than it is to just go DIS.
To use a stock dizzy the rear intake runner will be basically closed off once it's cut into enough and then sealed back up the clear the dizzy cap/housing.
You could extend the dizzy, but I think this would cause issues with firewall/cowl clearance.
You could make an offset dizzy, but again, I think this will have firewall clearance issues.
Both extended the dizzy and making and offset version are more labour intensive than making a trigger wheel and mounting a sensor at the front of the engine.
Back when I did my first hybrid I looked at all of these options, going in a Jimmy (S15), but the same issues still applied.
I had considered making a small trigger wheel to go in a dizzy shaft to trigger the DIS ICM, but it would need to be a "14X" wheel with two slightly offset notches and with how small the wheel would be the resolution of reading that wheel would have been horrendous and likely not work, and if it did work, I could see it being an issue as RPM increased.
I decided to go the traditional route, and make a wheel that when between the damper and crank pulley. and then make a mount to use the stock sensor, and made that all adjustable.
Other people have done it differently.
Here are a few pictures of mine. I used this for two years while daily driving my Jimmy, through snowy winters rainy springs and hot summers, never had an issue with it.
I then transferred the same trigger wheel and part of the sensor mount to my Nissan L28, that I drove almost daily through 3 seasons and even a few short jaunts in the snow. lol
I am again using it on my LX9, since the internal crank trigger could not be used with the older DIS setup. I did make one change to it when it went on the LX9 from when I used it on the 2.8 and that was moved the mount forward by about 1.25". When I fist made it, the mount sat against the block, and this was fine until I put the oil pan on and realized that with how long I had made the mount it interfered with the oil pan. D'oh! So by using a spacer that also doubled as a base for my engine strut (different now than what is pictured below), it moved the base far enough forward to not interfere with the oil pan, and I also shortened the sensor holder to match up to the wheel again. I can't seem to locate any good pictures that will show this right now, I know I have one or two somewhere...
I never even considered altering the height of the distributor, that is definitely something to consider. The clearance was something I was questioning as well, was curious how close the back of the 3.4 intake would be in relation to the distributor. If something needs to be cut and welded on the plenum then I may just scrap that intake idea, unless I can do something with the distributor height to clear it. Another issue would spring from the EBL Flash using the cam/crank sensor input if I go that route, I would have to switch from the EBL Flash to the SFI-6, which might turn out to be a better way to go, but the harness would more than likely need major work. Really want to stick with the 2.8, but you guys have me thinking it would be better to stuff an entire 3500 in it, but then make an adapter plate for the stock throttle body so I can retain the detent cable...
The 3500 would still require an external trigger wheel to use the OBD1 Delco ECMs. Or get that replacement ring and disassemble the engine to install it...
Or go to an ECM that will read the 3500 pattern like a Megasquirt and then drive the coils directly from the MS ECU.
The external trigger wheel is not a difficult thing to make/install.
You also wouldn't need to go to the SFI-6, and if you did you'd need to go to the Buick trigger and ignition from what I understand which would be a bit of a step backwards at the very least sideways, and would be more work than installing a 7x trigger wheel, since you'd also need a proper cam position trigger.
In the stock Delco ECMs the offset that is needed for the gen2/3 660 DIS can be added by changing a few scalers. I haven't worked with the EBL, but I'd think the same is possible with it.
The dizzy would need to be extended at least 4" IIRC, and at that length would still require modifying the plenum to fit around the dizzy cap/body.
Ice ran both dizzy and DIS on the same engine and DIS made tbe engine run so much smoother and pull harder I'll never run dizzy again, if I can help it.
I would recomend going DIS as well, that is one of my next upgrades. Mark and I were talking about my idle issues and we narrowed it down to the distributor. He had similar issues until he switched to DIS and they disappeared.
I would reccommend DIS all day long. Well worth the time and by the time you made the dizzy work on the set up it would have cost you more time then the DIS which is pretty dang easy.
Here is what i used till i got a 3.4L which already has the crank reluctor wheel on it.
I didnt intend to get the harmonic balancer kit but its what they sent me and i never had any issues with it. Best 150 bucks i spend though. Replace the balancer with this one, bolt on the sensor holder that comes with the kit, use a 93-95 crank sensor from a Fbody and thats it, change a few things on the tune, and do some wireing(really basic) and you are good to go.
I had no use for this and ended up selling it to... mars over the summer. I have a whole top end and pushrods for the hybrid set up but im saving that for c2yt if he needs it come spring summer...
Okay, good news, just spoke with Ed from BBS Designs and he is still offering the V6 turbo header. Also spoke with some local 3rd gen sellers and they have a few pair of stock cylinder heads sitting on the shelf for cheap cuz nobody wants them. What are you getting at Rob... I am getting at keeping the initial concept of building the 2.8 for the street. Not too happy with the stock intake manifold, or any available replacements using the distributor, but I will make it work either way. Have a few ideas, but time might be too much of a factor, and I can't really wait around constructing a sheet metal intake, and the pizza box method is just not appealing to me (lol) so I will more than likely port the stock system.
Honestly gave some serious thought on the Hybrid setup, but in the end it is just a street car that I am going to have some fun with, I don't want to get that deep into it, not to mention wind up with the car sitting longer than needed. Waiting on Ed from BBS to pull the trigger so I can get him started on the header, then I need to find a used drivers side tubular header, then weld up a crossover. The crossover I don't mind doing, it's easy enough. Gonna have him weld me a T4 flange though as opposed to the normal T3, as I plan on using my old T72 turbo with this setup. These cars are finally exempt in New Jersey, so the exhaust is getting dumped right by the front passenger tire. Once I get my hands on a donor set of heads I'll open them up substantially and do a few tricks here and there with them, as well as the intake. It's gonna surprise quite a few people...
Was actually considering a 4G63 swap believe it or not, but talked myself out of it...
I don't blame ya. I know how big projects are as well. One year I'd like to not complete change everything. Sometimes when it's all in pieces i have to really have some motivation to toss it back together.
Turboing a stock set up is quick and easy. I'm sure you'll have a nice ride and streetable one at that.
t4 for the win. That what I've got. If I know one thing, my turbo sure isent restricting anything. Although it takes alot to wind it up, but it's well worth it on the top end.
I know a guy who lives on the other side of Cleveland with a turbo 4th gen v6 fbody. And johnathen lives 30 min north of me with his turbo v6 thirdgen. One day it would be cool to meet up with a few turbo v6s and just check them all out and race as well.
That is something I'd like to do, not just meet up with each other, but represent third gen's as a whole against other makes at the track. This will motivate others to join in. We were supposed to do that so many times over the years, but nobody was ready. The talk was always there leading up to it of course, but when it came time for race day, everyone disappeared lol. Import Wars is something we should all be apart of, it would be nice to see a group of third gens rising from the ashes taking on the newer Imports. Third gen after third gen, not just an occasional third gen, turn back the clock for a weekend. Over here at e-town they have become so scarce it isn't even funny, save for the occasional ones you would see on the way to the track that are falling apart on someone's lawn lol...
That is something I'd like to do, not just meet up with each other, but represent third gen's as a whole against other makes at the track. This will motivate others to join in. We were supposed to do that so many times over the years, but nobody was ready. The talk was always there leading up to it of course, but when it came time for race day, everyone disappeared lol. Import Wars is something we should all be apart of, it would be nice to see a group of third gens rising from the ashes taking on the newer Imports. Third gen after third gen, not just an occasional third gen, turn back the clock for a weekend. Over here at e-town they have become so scarce it isn't even funny, save for the occasional ones you would see on the way to the track that are falling apart on someone's lawn lol...
unless something drastically happens I can say one thing I am ready this year to meet up. I have wanted to do something like that for a long time. I am going to buy a trailer here in another month or two so I don't mind to travel a little bit.
10-27-2016, 12:08 PM
