Broken Timing Chain
12-10-2016, 11:15 AM
#1
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Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: 3.1 L V6
Transmission: Automatic
Axle/Gears: stock?
Broken Timing Chain
So I'm in a really tough spot right now. My car broke a timing chain apparently and now my engine is gone. I really do not want to get rid of this car. More than sentimental value, I've spent a lot of money to keep this car on the road. I really don't feel it would be worth it to sell it as it is.
Basically, I saw a couple threads talking about the 3.1 v6 in the newer 3rd gens being a noninterfierence engine but I saw mixed answers. My car is a 1990 so I think that was the first time they used the 3.1 v6 after the 2.8. I really need to know if its a interference engine or not because if it's not then all I'd have to do is replace the timing chain right? Or is there more I'd have to do?
The car honestly gave up the go in just about the same way it always has when it's broken down, but from electrical problems, it just stopped. Not clanking, no banging, just went silent. So for me it's hard to believe the engine died and it just made no noise. Apart from the rattling sound I ignored for like 100 miles which was my own fault, it sounded like a wrench was left on the top of the manifold. Rattled at about 1000 to 1500 rom, stopped from 1500 to 2000, and rattled again from 2000.
The car turns over just fine and doesn't make noise out of the ordinary either. Would the car even turn if the timing chain was broke and valves were bent?
I guess what I'm asking is, is this situation as bad as it seems? The mechanic I took it to who I trust said it has no compression, understandable, but he didn't look at the heads or anything just took the plugs out, which I assume is how you do a compression check. So is it possible for there to be no compression without damaged valves? And if not, how much to replace the valves and timing belt myself?
Any help would be appreciated because my dad is on me about getting rid of this thing. Telling me to call pick-a-part. I am not sending this car to its grave.
Basically, I saw a couple threads talking about the 3.1 v6 in the newer 3rd gens being a noninterfierence engine but I saw mixed answers. My car is a 1990 so I think that was the first time they used the 3.1 v6 after the 2.8. I really need to know if its a interference engine or not because if it's not then all I'd have to do is replace the timing chain right? Or is there more I'd have to do?
The car honestly gave up the go in just about the same way it always has when it's broken down, but from electrical problems, it just stopped. Not clanking, no banging, just went silent. So for me it's hard to believe the engine died and it just made no noise. Apart from the rattling sound I ignored for like 100 miles which was my own fault, it sounded like a wrench was left on the top of the manifold. Rattled at about 1000 to 1500 rom, stopped from 1500 to 2000, and rattled again from 2000.
The car turns over just fine and doesn't make noise out of the ordinary either. Would the car even turn if the timing chain was broke and valves were bent?
I guess what I'm asking is, is this situation as bad as it seems? The mechanic I took it to who I trust said it has no compression, understandable, but he didn't look at the heads or anything just took the plugs out, which I assume is how you do a compression check. So is it possible for there to be no compression without damaged valves? And if not, how much to replace the valves and timing belt myself?
Any help would be appreciated because my dad is on me about getting rid of this thing. Telling me to call pick-a-part. I am not sending this car to its grave.
Last edited by douggoud; 12-10-2016 at 12:41 PM.
12-10-2016, 01:42 PM
#2
Re: Broken Timing Chain
So I'm in a really tough spot right now. My car broke a timing chain apparently and now my engine is gone. I really do not want to get rid of this car. More than sentimental value, I've spent a lot of money to keep this car on the road. I really don't feel it would be worth it to sell it as it is.
Basically, I saw a couple threads talking about the 3.1 v6 in the newer 3rd gens being a noninterfierence engine but I saw mixed answers. My car is a 1990 so I think that was the first time they used the 3.1 v6 after the 2.8. I really need to know if its a interference engine or not because if it's not then all I'd have to do is replace the timing chain right? Or is there more I'd have to do?
I have not one time seen a 60 degree V6 bend valves due to a slipped/broken timing chain . Not saying it 100% certain can't happen , but I haven't seen it and have replaced a couple of chains on a couple of different 60 degree V6s
The car honestly gave up the go in just about the same way it always has when it's broken down, but from electrical problems, it just stopped. Not clanking, no banging, just went silent. So for me it's hard to believe the engine died and it just made no noise. Apart from the rattling sound I ignored for like 100 miles which was my own fault, it sounded like a wrench was left on the top of the manifold. Rattled at about 1000 to 1500 rom, stopped from 1500 to 2000, and rattled again from 2000.
The car turns over just fine and doesn't make noise out of the ordinary either. Would the car even turn if the timing chain was broke and valves were bent?
Yes the engine will turn with a broken/slipped chain , but it will turn with no sounds of the compression bucking against the starter because with no proper cam timing there will be no compression
I guess what I'm asking is, is this situation as bad as it seems? The mechanic I took it to who I trust said it has no compression, understandable, but he didn't look at the heads or anything just took the plugs out, which I assume is how you do a compression check. So is it possible for there to be no compression without damaged valves? And if not, how much to replace the valves and timing belt myself?
No , the situation is not that bad , if you buy the parts and do the work yourself you could replace the timing chain & gears and the gaskets for less than $100 . Now , instead of trying to list every step here , my suggestion to you would be to search out some U Tube videos of folks replacing the timing chain on a GM 60 degree V6 , watch them , and decide if it's within your mechanical abilities to do the job
Any help would be appreciated because my dad is on me about getting rid of this thing. Telling me to call pick-a-part. I am not sending this car to its grave.
Gently remind your Dad that ALL cars have mechanical failures and to junk an otherwise serviceable car for a repair as simple as this is would be the textbook definition of the old expression "penny wise and pound foolish" . There is simply no way possible that the cost of the timing chain job , even if you paid to have it done , would come close to the cost of buying a "turn key" day to day reliable replacement for what you've already got .
You would do best to learn ALL you can about repairing your car yourself , even if you never become a so called "master mechanic" . The amount of money you'll save doing your own repairs , provided you work within your abilities and don't mess stuff up trying to fix it , will be an impressive chunk of change indeed , since a good 80% of the cost of going to a shop is the labor (and inflated markup on parts)
Good Luck and believe me , this IS doable if your at all mechanically inclined and can follow directions ....
Basically, I saw a couple threads talking about the 3.1 v6 in the newer 3rd gens being a noninterfierence engine but I saw mixed answers. My car is a 1990 so I think that was the first time they used the 3.1 v6 after the 2.8. I really need to know if its a interference engine or not because if it's not then all I'd have to do is replace the timing chain right? Or is there more I'd have to do?
I have not one time seen a 60 degree V6 bend valves due to a slipped/broken timing chain . Not saying it 100% certain can't happen , but I haven't seen it and have replaced a couple of chains on a couple of different 60 degree V6s
The car honestly gave up the go in just about the same way it always has when it's broken down, but from electrical problems, it just stopped. Not clanking, no banging, just went silent. So for me it's hard to believe the engine died and it just made no noise. Apart from the rattling sound I ignored for like 100 miles which was my own fault, it sounded like a wrench was left on the top of the manifold. Rattled at about 1000 to 1500 rom, stopped from 1500 to 2000, and rattled again from 2000.
The car turns over just fine and doesn't make noise out of the ordinary either. Would the car even turn if the timing chain was broke and valves were bent?
Yes the engine will turn with a broken/slipped chain , but it will turn with no sounds of the compression bucking against the starter because with no proper cam timing there will be no compression
I guess what I'm asking is, is this situation as bad as it seems? The mechanic I took it to who I trust said it has no compression, understandable, but he didn't look at the heads or anything just took the plugs out, which I assume is how you do a compression check. So is it possible for there to be no compression without damaged valves? And if not, how much to replace the valves and timing belt myself?
No , the situation is not that bad , if you buy the parts and do the work yourself you could replace the timing chain & gears and the gaskets for less than $100 . Now , instead of trying to list every step here , my suggestion to you would be to search out some U Tube videos of folks replacing the timing chain on a GM 60 degree V6 , watch them , and decide if it's within your mechanical abilities to do the job
Any help would be appreciated because my dad is on me about getting rid of this thing. Telling me to call pick-a-part. I am not sending this car to its grave.
Gently remind your Dad that ALL cars have mechanical failures and to junk an otherwise serviceable car for a repair as simple as this is would be the textbook definition of the old expression "penny wise and pound foolish" . There is simply no way possible that the cost of the timing chain job , even if you paid to have it done , would come close to the cost of buying a "turn key" day to day reliable replacement for what you've already got .
You would do best to learn ALL you can about repairing your car yourself , even if you never become a so called "master mechanic" . The amount of money you'll save doing your own repairs , provided you work within your abilities and don't mess stuff up trying to fix it , will be an impressive chunk of change indeed , since a good 80% of the cost of going to a shop is the labor (and inflated markup on parts)
Good Luck and believe me , this IS doable if your at all mechanically inclined and can follow directions ....
Last edited by OrangeBird; 12-10-2016 at 01:46 PM.
12-11-2016, 12:57 PM
#3
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
Thank you so much! You've given me hope for repairing my car. I've done my brakes and changed my oil a few times so I know a few things! If I find a well detailed video I'm sure I could follow it. Thanks again for your help!
Last edited by douggoud; 12-11-2016 at 07:04 PM.
12-12-2016, 12:46 PM
#4
Re: Broken Timing Chain
Hi Doug , Ok , if your gonna do this , I will offer you a few tips/suggestions for success ;
First and foremost , you will be removing a component called the "Harmonic Dampener" . The removal tool that must be used to take this part off can , under the wrong circumstances , destroy the threads in the crankshaft and if this happens you will be in a world of crap . Now , the thing here is , as long as the tapered part of the removal tool is big enough to not attempt to screw itself into the crankshaft's threads you'll be fine , but it's something well worth knowing about and some research in the general engines section will reveal at least a couple of threads where folks have damaged their crankshaft threads by use of a not properly fitting removal tool . Know too , that there IS an installation tool as well , and not using the installation tool and instead using the dampener's attaching bolt to try to install it IS a recipie for disaster in the form of stripped crankshaft threads . As a last word on the Harmonic Dampener , if you at all can squeeze the money out to do so , replacing it with a new one ain't a bad idea since the rubber separating the two metal sections is well known for deteriorating enough to let the outer ring of metal slip in relationship with the inner hub portion . Net result = an out of balance dampener that's now actually adding rather than dampening vibrations .
Next up , pay particular attention to where the dots are supposed to line up on the timing chain's gears . It's those dots that establish the proper relationship of cam to crank and even one tooth off can make the engine perform poorly . Know also that it's highly likely you'll need to reset the distributor timing when your done with the chain installation . There are two times in each cycle the piston is at TDC (Top Dead Center) , the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke and if the distributor is timed for firing at the exhaust instead of compression stroke the engine won't run . This can happen because there is technically two ways one could line up the dots on the cam gears , both dots facing each other or both dots at the 12:00 position . One way puts #1 cylinder on it's firing stroke and the other way puts it on it's exhaust stroke . A bit of further reading about this may too be found in the general engines section if you find no threads about it in the V6 section here .
Third thing , Cleanliness IS next to Godliness in this and any other car repairs involving gaskets ! Just one tiny chunk of leftover old gasket material WILL cause a leak and so the words "spotlessly clean" can't be stressed enough here . Both sides on any gasketed surface must be "as new" clean if the seal is to be a 100% success .
Lastly , if you have any questions and before you force anything that appears "stuck" , come here and ask ! There are many folks here who have done many timing chains so there ain't much that we haven't seen , and asking after something gets broken gets costly quick , so when in doubt put the big hammer away and come here instead .
Last edited by OrangeBird; 12-12-2016 at 12:53 PM.
12-12-2016, 01:09 PM
#5
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
i would verify that the chain is in fact broken or jumped time. pull the cap off the distributor and have somebody crank the engine. does the rotor spin?
might be a good idea to buy a repair manual that shows step by step instructions for repairs to familiarize yourself with different procedures and tools needed? of course you still have 3rdgen at your disposal for help. i dont see any reason you cant tackle this job. proper diagnosis is the first step though.
might be a good idea to buy a repair manual that shows step by step instructions for repairs to familiarize yourself with different procedures and tools needed? of course you still have 3rdgen at your disposal for help. i dont see any reason you cant tackle this job. proper diagnosis is the first step though.
12-12-2016, 02:30 PM
#6
Re: Broken Timing Chain
i would verify that the chain is in fact broken or jumped time. pull the cap off the distributor and have somebody crank the engine. does the rotor spin?
might be a good idea to buy a repair manual that shows step by step instructions for repairs to familiarize yourself with different procedures and tools needed? of course you still have 3rdgen at your disposal for help. i dont see any reason you cant tackle this job. proper diagnosis is the first step though.
might be a good idea to buy a repair manual that shows step by step instructions for repairs to familiarize yourself with different procedures and tools needed? of course you still have 3rdgen at your disposal for help. i dont see any reason you cant tackle this job. proper diagnosis is the first step though.
Joe makes a VERY good point about always doing your own diagnosis and the only reason I didn't mention it is that you said you trust your mechanic who diagnosed a broken/slipped chain .
12-14-2016, 04:34 PM
#7
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
Hi Doug , Ok , if your gonna do this , I will offer you a few tips/suggestions for success ;
First and foremost , you will be removing a component called the "Harmonic Dampener" . The removal tool that must be used to take this part off can , under the wrong circumstances , destroy the threads in the crankshaft and if this happens you will be in a world of crap . Now , the thing here is , as long as the tapered part of the removal tool is big enough to not attempt to screw itself into the crankshaft's threads you'll be fine , but it's something well worth knowing about and some research in the general engines section will reveal at least a couple of threads where folks have damaged their crankshaft threads by use of a not properly fitting removal tool . Know too , that there IS an installation tool as well , and not using the installation tool and instead using the dampener's attaching bolt to try to install it IS a recipie for disaster in the form of stripped crankshaft threads . As a last word on the Harmonic Dampener , if you at all can squeeze the money out to do so , replacing it with a new one ain't a bad idea since the rubber separating the two metal sections is well known for deteriorating enough to let the outer ring of metal slip in relationship with the inner hub portion . Net result = an out of balance dampener that's now actually adding rather than dampening vibrations .
Next up , pay particular attention to where the dots are supposed to line up on the timing chain's gears . It's those dots that establish the proper relationship of cam to crank and even one tooth off can make the engine perform poorly . Know also that it's highly likely you'll need to reset the distributor timing when your done with the chain installation . There are two times in each cycle the piston is at TDC (Top Dead Center) , the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke and if the distributor is timed for firing at the exhaust instead of compression stroke the engine won't run . This can happen because there is technically two ways one could line up the dots on the cam gears , both dots facing each other or both dots at the 12:00 position . One way puts #1 cylinder on it's firing stroke and the other way puts it on it's exhaust stroke . A bit of further reading about this may too be found in the general engines section if you find no threads about it in the V6 section here .
Third thing , Cleanliness IS next to Godliness in this and any other car repairs involving gaskets ! Just one tiny chunk of leftover old gasket material WILL cause a leak and so the words "spotlessly clean" can't be stressed enough here . Both sides on any gasketed surface must be "as new" clean if the seal is to be a 100% success .
Lastly , if you have any questions and before you force anything that appears "stuck" , come here and ask ! There are many folks here who have done many timing chains so there ain't much that we haven't seen , and asking after something gets broken gets costly quick , so when in doubt put the big hammer away and come here instead .
Also, I don't know but I found around video on YouTube doing a timing chain replacement and I'm not sure but maybe you or someone else could tell me if this is the video to follow
https://youtu.be/nmwAGxd_ptA
It seems like an in depth breakdown but I only know so much.
But yes, I usually come here when I'm doing any repairs myself. I get a lot of helpful responses here
i would verify that the chain is in fact broken or jumped time. pull the cap off the distributor and have somebody crank the engine. does the rotor spin?
might be a good idea to buy a repair manual that shows step by step instructions for repairs to familiarize yourself with different procedures and tools needed? of course you still have 3rdgen at your disposal for help. i dont see any reason you cant tackle this job. proper diagnosis is the first step though.
might be a good idea to buy a repair manual that shows step by step instructions for repairs to familiarize yourself with different procedures and tools needed? of course you still have 3rdgen at your disposal for help. i dont see any reason you cant tackle this job. proper diagnosis is the first step though.
And yes, we actually have a repair manual that's probably almost as old as the car, ahhahahaha, it's falling a part at the seams. Regardless, yes, I'm starting work tomorrow I'll bring that book with me. And I'll definitely check the distributor because that gave me a problem in the past. Thanks again for your help!
Yeah, I'm gonna see what I can do in those steps to diagnose it and make sure it wasn't something worse than just a timing chain.
Last edited by douggoud; 12-14-2016 at 04:51 PM.
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12-15-2016, 03:05 PM
#8
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
Alright so I guess my mechanic already took the distributor cap off and whatnot so I checked and tried to start the car, the rotor, nor anything else moved when I tried to start the car..... is that bad?
12-15-2016, 03:41 PM
#9
Re: Broken Timing Chain
No , not bad at all , just perfectly indicative of a bad chain & gears . A new chain & gears will have your camshaft turning again , which then will make your distributor turn again .
PS , when removing the water pump , you will encounter a few bolts with "torx" heads on them . A couple or few with kinda small heads and a couple with really big ones . Do not skimp here and buy the bargain basement torx wrenches to remove these bolts . They are stuck real good (since thread sealant was put on the larger ones that go all the way through to the block when the engine was built) and cheap wrenches will break , strip the bolt heads , and lead to frustration . Conversely , when your putting it all back together , you will clean the bolt threads with a wire wheel (mounted to a bench grinder preferably) and use thread sealant when you reinstall them . When it's all apart , and you look at the bolts and the waterpump and timing cover , you'll see which bolts go all the way through both and end up at the block , those ones of course being the ones needing the thread sealant .
12-15-2016, 06:11 PM
#10
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
No , not bad at all , just perfectly indicative of a bad chain & gears . A new chain & gears will have your camshaft turning again , which then will make your distributor turn again .
PS , when removing the water pump , you will encounter a few bolts with "torx" heads on them . A couple or few with kinda small heads and a couple with really big ones . Do not skimp here and buy the bargain basement torx wrenches to remove these bolts . They are stuck real good (since thread sealant was put on the larger ones that go all the way through to the block when the engine was built) and cheap wrenches will break , strip the bolt heads , and lead to frustration . Conversely , when your putting it all back together , you will clean the bolt threads with a wire wheel (mounted to a bench grinder preferably) and use thread sealant when you reinstall them . When it's all apart , and you look at the bolts and the waterpump and timing cover , you'll see which bolts go all the way through both and end up at the block , those ones of course being the ones needing the thread sealant .
Ah ok that's good, I was afraid that meant bad things. I've got so far as to where I'm trying to get the compressor out of my way but one bolt is stripped and tough and causing me problems right now
Do I have to take off the compressor to get the water pump off because this thing will not budge.
12-15-2016, 06:52 PM
#11
Re: Broken Timing Chain
Tell me , you ARE using metric sockets to remove that hardware , yes ? I think if I recall correctly that bolt whose head is now stripped is a 13 mm , and it looks like you either ;
Tried to remove it with a 1/2 inch socket instead of 13 mm
or , you used a stripped out and worn socket , or you weren't squarely on the bolt head with the socket when you attempted to turn it .
Either way , you gotta stop destroying hardware if you want this job to be a success . Now , I am pretty sure (not 100% , but pretty sure still) that yes you do need to get the AC compressor off of the engine to be able to remove the power steering pump , which I know has to come off because it's bracket mounts directly to the water pump . That bolt is now SO hopelessly rounded that I believe there is only two ways to get it out ;
#1 Weld a cheap socket to it and then remove it with a ratchet or ,
#2 , using an angle grinder with a cut off wheel , grind away completely the bolt head without damaging the bracket under it , and then once the rest of it is disassembled , grab the rest of the bolt with visegrips and take it out that way .
Now folks have had success by taking a junk socket slightly smaller than what's left of the bolt head , pounding it on with a hammer , and then using a ratchet , but I think that bolt may be too rounded for that trick to work .
PS , in the lower left of your picture is one of the water pump bolts I mentioned earlier .
12-15-2016, 07:34 PM
#13
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
Tell me , you ARE using metric sockets to remove that hardware , yes ? I think if I recall correctly that bolt whose head is now stripped is a 13 mm , and it looks like you either ;
Tried to remove it with a 1/2 inch socket instead of 13 mm
or , you used a stripped out and worn socket , or you weren't squarely on the bolt head with the socket when you attempted to turn it .
Either way , you gotta stop destroying hardware if you want this job to be a success . Now , I am pretty sure (not 100% , but pretty sure still) that yes you do need to get the AC compressor off of the engine to be able to remove the power steering pump , which I know has to come off because it's bracket mounts directly to the water pump . That bolt is now SO hopelessly rounded that I believe there is only two ways to get it out ;
#1 Weld a cheap socket to it and then remove it with a ratchet or ,
#2 , using an angle grinder with a cut off wheel , grind away completely the bolt head without damaging the bracket under it , and then once the rest of it is disassembled , grab the rest of the bolt with visegrips and take it out that way .
Now folks have had success by taking a junk socket slightly smaller than what's left of the bolt head , pounding it on with a hammer , and then using a ratchet , but I think that bolt may be too rounded for that trick to work .
PS , in the lower left of your picture is one of the water pump bolts I mentioned earlier .
Were gonna try the angle grinder to get it off of there first.
12-15-2016, 08:05 PM
#14
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
Alright, angle grinding done and now I'm taking off the power steering
12-15-2016, 09:00 PM
#15
Re: Broken Timing Chain
Great , and once you get it apart it should be fairly easy to unscrew the rest of the bolt from the block using visegrips . A couple of other things to consider ;
You remember I mentioned replacing the Harmonic Dampener if you can at all afford it ? Well now I'm gonna spend a bit more of your cash
. Whenever I do a timing chain & gears* I always replace not only the dampener I also replace the water pump and the hoses & serpentine belt just because I had to remove them to do the job . The belt and hoses being rubber and the water pump being a common failure item it just makes good sense that if your taking them off that new ones should go back on . Your gasket kit will include a seal that gets pressed into the aluminum timing chain cover , make sure that new seal gets installed properly , and don't worry if there are "extra" gaskets in the set , that set will likely cover several different variations of our 2.8/3.1 and you will use the gaskets that most closely match the ones you'll be scraping off .* Funny I've always heard them referred to as gears , when technically they are sprockets , since a chain rides on them , oh well it is what it is .
12-15-2016, 11:19 PM
#16
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
Great , and once you get it apart it should be fairly easy to unscrew the rest of the bolt from the block using visegrips . A couple of other things to consider ;
You remember I mentioned replacing the Harmonic Dampener if you can at all afford it ? Well now I'm gonna spend a bit more of your cash
. Whenever I do a timing chain & gears* I always replace not only the dampener I also replace the water pump and the hoses & serpentine belt just because I had to remove them to do the job . The belt and hoses being rubber and the water pump being a common failure item it just makes good sense that if your taking them off that new ones should go back on . Your gasket kit will include a seal that gets pressed into the aluminum timing chain cover , make sure that new seal gets installed properly , and don't worry if there are "extra" gaskets in the set , that set will likely cover several different variations of our 2.8/3.1 and you will use the gaskets that most closely match the ones you'll be scraping off .* Funny I've always heard them referred to as gears , when technically they are sprockets , since a chain rides on them , oh well it is what it is .
The belt sounds like a good idea though, I haven't replaced it since I got the car.
Side note, now that I have the pump off and everything I found something semi alarming? At least to me, I found this on the inside
So I tried rubbing it off to see what it was and:
That's not rust is it? If so, am I gonna have to replace the timing cover?
Otherwise, the water pump is in good shape
Other than that bolt that took 2 hours of my time it's been going well.
Now, I read the manual, the manual said ishould I dump the oil from the pan, but the guy in the video didn't I think? What should I do before I pull the timing cover off?
Also, the puller, my grandpa has one but it only has two legs (?), I'm sure it's more for the race engines he messes with. The three legged one should work better I take it right? Would be the better way to go I bet
Thanks again for your help man!
Last edited by douggoud; 12-15-2016 at 11:22 PM.
12-16-2016, 09:53 AM
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
You need a flat puller that has three bolts that thread into the pulley bolt holes. Plus an insert to protect the crankshaft threads.
Using a puller with legs (jaws) may very well ruin the damper.
RBob.
Using a puller with legs (jaws) may very well ruin the damper.
RBob.
12-16-2016, 11:41 AM
#18
Re: Broken Timing Chain
That should not be able to be rust , since the cover is aluminum . Giving how cheaply made the covers look to me (mine looks the same with all the ugly crack looking lines in it that I guess aren't really cracks) maybe there was a bit of metal slag in the raw aluminum they poured your cover from ? Thing is when you get the cover off put a really bright light on the backside (engine block side) and look at that spot to make sure it ain't porous there . I say this because what's on the rag looks more oily than rusty in the picture ? But the stain on the cover does indeed look like rust .
And yes , RBob is right , a two legged puller will most likely destroy the dampener and you want to use a specific dampener puller (remember we discussed this as well as the proper installation tool ?) . When you get the cover off you may find that the chain hasn't actually broken , the factory sprocket that goes on the camshaft usually has plastic tipped teeth (teflon ?) and those plastic teeth give out and then the cam stops turning . Of course you'll be replacing the chain & both sprockets and note that the new cam sprocket will not have plastic teeth but will instead be all metal .
Here are a couple of shots of a new timing chain when I did mine while regasketing my engine ...
And yes , RBob is right , a two legged puller will most likely destroy the dampener and you want to use a specific dampener puller (remember we discussed this as well as the proper installation tool ?) . When you get the cover off you may find that the chain hasn't actually broken , the factory sprocket that goes on the camshaft usually has plastic tipped teeth (teflon ?) and those plastic teeth give out and then the cam stops turning . Of course you'll be replacing the chain & both sprockets and note that the new cam sprocket will not have plastic teeth but will instead be all metal .
Here are a couple of shots of a new timing chain when I did mine while regasketing my engine ...
Last edited by OrangeBird; 12-16-2016 at 11:49 AM.
12-16-2016, 01:23 PM
#19
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
These are the tools I got to do the job.
That should not be able to be rust , since the cover is aluminum . Giving how cheaply made the covers look to me (mine looks the same with all the ugly crack looking lines in it that I guess aren't really cracks) maybe there was a bit of metal slag in the raw aluminum they poured your cover from ? Thing is when you get the cover off put a really bright light on the backside (engine block side) and look at that spot to make sure it ain't porous there . I say this because what's on the rag looks more oily than rusty in the picture ? But the stain on the cover does indeed look like rust .
And yes , RBob is right , a two legged puller will most likely destroy the dampener and you want to use a specific dampener puller (remember we discussed this as well as the proper installation tool ?) . When you get the cover off you may find that the chain hasn't actually broken , the factory sprocket that goes on the camshaft usually has plastic tipped teeth (teflon ?) and those plastic teeth give out and then the cam stops turning . Of course you'll be replacing the chain & both sprockets and note that the new cam sprocket will not have plastic teeth but will instead be all metal .
Here are a couple of shots of a new timing chain when I did mine while regasketing my engine ...
And yes , RBob is right , a two legged puller will most likely destroy the dampener and you want to use a specific dampener puller (remember we discussed this as well as the proper installation tool ?) . When you get the cover off you may find that the chain hasn't actually broken , the factory sprocket that goes on the camshaft usually has plastic tipped teeth (teflon ?) and those plastic teeth give out and then the cam stops turning . Of course you'll be replacing the chain & both sprockets and note that the new cam sprocket will not have plastic teeth but will instead be all metal .
Here are a couple of shots of a new timing chain when I did mine while regasketing my engine ...
Alright, I'll definitely check the other side to make sure its not messed up.
And yes but my grandpa was adamant that I use his but I kept telling him no I need a specific one. So I got the ones pictured above
Also, thats kinda interesting that they'd use plastic instead of all metal, but hey it got to 274000 miles so far
Also, nice looking engine there
Last edited by douggoud; 12-16-2016 at 01:33 PM.
12-16-2016, 01:49 PM
#20
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
THANK GOD! It's only the timing chain (so far). Also, its a good thing I bought the kit with the guider because that looks like it broke too.
12-16-2016, 02:18 PM
#22
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
The guider got obliterated, i had to bend it back to get the bolts off. Also, I'm hoping these bits and pieces are what were stuck to the side of the guider.
12-16-2016, 02:29 PM
#23
Re: Broken Timing Chain
Yes ! 
That's great that it broke clean and didn't tear up anything important . The guide is a wearable item and I'm glad it came with your timing set and so it looks like your good to go . Sorry I forgot to mention the guide but in my defense it's been since 2012 when I regasketed my engine and there are likely all kinds of details I've forgotten . PS , As to your well meaning grandpa , Yes I do most certainly understand the urge to use what's on hand tools wise , rather than spending money obtaining "specialty" tools , but that's a false economy in the way that if the improvised tool ends up breaking something any possible savings have now been nullified . Just as a side point of information I am likely at least as old as your grandpa and I am a retired licensed FAA aircraft mechanic who was always beholden to the "the right tool for the right job" ethos of mechanical repairs .
And oh yea , here's a couple of more shots of what happens when a old guy with lots of time takes his engine apart .
12-16-2016, 02:35 PM
#24
Re: Broken Timing Chain
The bits & pieces don't look like the guide , they look kinda like metal . looking at the front of your engine in the picture you posted all looks fine there , have you looked at the back side (engine side) of the timing cover to see of any metal is missing there ? (the chain may have damaged the inside of the cover right as it broke)
12-16-2016, 02:37 PM
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
Yes ! That's great that it broke clean and didn't tear up anything important . The guide is a wearable item and I'm glad it came with your timing set and so it looks like your good to go . Sorry I forgot to mention the guide but in my defense it's been since 2012 when I regasketed my engine and there are likely all kinds of details I've forgotten . PS , As to your well meaning grandpa , Yes I do most certainly understand the urge to use what's on hand tools wise , rather than spending money obtaining "specialty" tools , but that's a false economy in the way that if the improvised tool ends up breaking something any possible savings have now been nullified . Just as a side point of information I am likely at least as old as your grandpa and I am a retired licensed FAA aircraft mechanic who was always beholden to the "the right tool for the right job" ethos of mechanical repairs .
And oh yea , here's a couple of more shots of what happens when a old guy with lots of time takes his engine apart .Hahahaha my grandpa I pretty old, he's 80 something and he raced fuel alterds back in the day. But yeah, I like making suse I have the right tool too and not something generic.
And nice! It looks pretty sweet. I imagine my valves look pretty bad
12-16-2016, 02:41 PM
#26
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
The bits & pieces don't look like the guide , they look kinda like metal . looking at the front of your engine in the picture you posted all looks fine there , have you looked at the back side (engine side) of the timing cover to see of any metal is missing there ? (the chain may have damaged the inside of the cover right as it broke)
That was the first thing I thought too but I'm sure it's not, the old guide is smaller on one side than the new one.
12-16-2016, 07:03 PM
#27
Re: Broken Timing Chain
Oh yea , seeing the picture of both guides side by side I can see where the metal came from . If any chunks ended up in the pan they'll hopefully come out in the oil change or maybe just remain stuck in the inevitable sludge layer the pan of an engine with 250K miles most likely has . The 100% technically correct answer would of course be to remove and clean the pan but on a 250K mile daily driver I just can't see being all that **** to pull the pan on a fishing excursion looking for chunks that may not even be there . 
Looks like things are progressing nicely , and hopefully the next picture we see will be the new chain & sprockets installed ...
12-16-2016, 07:33 PM
#28
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
Oh yea , seeing the picture of both guides side by side I can see where the metal came from . If any chunks ended up in the pan they'll hopefully come out in the oil change or maybe just remain stuck in the inevitable sludge layer the pan of an engine with 250K miles most likely has . The 100% technically correct answer would of course be to remove and clean the pan but on a 250K mile daily driver I just can't see being all that **** to pull the pan on a fishing excursion looking for chunks that may not even be there . Looks like things are progressing nicely , and hopefully the next picture we see will be the new chain & sprockets installed ...As much as I wish that was the next picture, I have a question, what's the easiest way to remove a 20 year old gasket that seems to be fused with the block?
I'm trying to clean the block up and everything so the gasket fit is good but I'm stuck because it's nearly impossible to get any of this off. The timing cover and water pump aren't giving me any issues.
12-16-2016, 08:04 PM
#29
Re: Broken Timing Chain
The two things I use on an iron block are a regular gasket scraper , the kind that has a single edge razor blade mounted to it , and a very soft wire wheel in a 3/8" electric drill . Since it's not aluminum you don't have the worry of ruining the surface as long as you use a soft wire wheel and don't stay in any one place too long with it .
The heads I showed you earlier were mostly cleaned up with the wire wheel & drill method .
The heads I showed you earlier were mostly cleaned up with the wire wheel & drill method .
12-16-2016, 09:12 PM
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
The two things I use on an iron block are a regular gasket scraper , the kind that has a single edge razor blade mounted to it , and a very soft wire wheel in a 3/8" electric drill . Since it's not aluminum you don't have the worry of ruining the surface as long as you use a soft wire wheel and don't stay in any one place too long with it .
The heads I showed you earlier were mostly cleaned up with the wire wheel & drill method .
The heads I showed you earlier were mostly cleaned up with the wire wheel & drill method .
Also here's that picture
(Looking at the picture it looks like I have more work to do with the gasket)
12-16-2016, 10:40 PM
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
So uhhhh, I cleaned the timing cover and found this.....is this bad?
Also, I can not for the life of me get the timing cover back on. I've spent maybe 2 hours on this thing and cannot get it on. The manual says to remove the oil pan. The guy in the video didn't so I'm just sitting here like how?
Last edited by douggoud; 12-17-2016 at 12:34 AM.
12-17-2016, 12:36 PM
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
that'll be a nice oil leak once you get it back on, in my opinion. As for removing it, if it says in the manual to remove it, I probably would. Besides, what's the worst that comes of it? If it were my car, even with 275k, I'd be draining the oil and changing the filter after anything that involves metal shards happens. Best of luck, man. My car's timing chain is stretched and starting to cause a leak on the edge of the cover, time for more displacement .
.
12-17-2016, 03:28 PM
#33
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
that'll be a nice oil leak once you get it back on, in my opinion. As for removing it, if it says in the manual to remove it, I probably would. Besides, what's the worst that comes of it? If it were my car, even with 275k, I'd be draining the oil and changing the filter after anything that involves metal shards happens. Best of luck, man. My car's timing chain is stretched and starting to cause a leak on the edge of the cover, time for more displacement .
.Yeah its time for an oil change anyways. We got it back together though
12-17-2016, 10:58 PM
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
But yes, I'd like to thank you and everyone else that's helped me get this thing back on the road again, and keep me from having to get a new car so soon.
12-18-2016, 12:33 AM
#36
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Re: Broken Timing Chain
Hi there
I am planning to remove the balancer some time this month and need to buy the removal tool. Do you know what thread do the three bolts have? I want to make sure that the one that I will buy is adequate and as I will buy it online I need to know beforehand.
Also how did you re install the balancer back.surely you didn't use the normal crank bolt. I was thinking of using the long bolt / washer / nut method.
One last thing while I am at it. I will buy the cloyes street billet at from rock auto. Does anyone know if it comes with that center guide that the OP found broken?
I am planning to remove the balancer some time this month and need to buy the removal tool. Do you know what thread do the three bolts have? I want to make sure that the one that I will buy is adequate and as I will buy it online I need to know beforehand.
Also how did you re install the balancer back.surely you didn't use the normal crank bolt. I was thinking of using the long bolt / washer / nut method.
One last thing while I am at it. I will buy the cloyes street billet at from rock auto. Does anyone know if it comes with that center guide that the OP found broken?
12-18-2016, 01:50 PM
#37
Re: Broken Timing Chain
Hi there
I am planning to remove the balancer some time this month and need to buy the removal tool. Do you know what thread do the three bolts have? I want to make sure that the one that I will buy is adequate and as I will buy it online I need to know beforehand.
Also how did you re install the balancer back.surely you didn't use the normal crank bolt. I was thinking of using the long bolt / washer / nut method.
One last thing while I am at it. I will buy the cloyes street billet at from rock auto. Does anyone know if it comes with that center guide that the OP found broken?
I am planning to remove the balancer some time this month and need to buy the removal tool. Do you know what thread do the three bolts have? I want to make sure that the one that I will buy is adequate and as I will buy it online I need to know beforehand.
Also how did you re install the balancer back.surely you didn't use the normal crank bolt. I was thinking of using the long bolt / washer / nut method.
One last thing while I am at it. I will buy the cloyes street billet at from rock auto. Does anyone know if it comes with that center guide that the OP found broken?
Hi aseychell , You are asking your question(s) in the wrong subforum . This is the subforum for the V6 engines and your 350 TPI is a V8 engine . If I knew your answer of course I'd tell you , but I don't , most of my 3RD gen knowledge centers around the V6 that I own . If you go to the "Tech / General Engine" subforum here and ask your questions I'll bet all kinds of folks will have the right answers for you .
That's great and I'm glad to have been able to help you get it going . From the timeliness in which you got it going I'd say your doing just fine working on it and it's money in your pocket ever time your not paying shop labor rates to get your car fixed .