Injector driver boards
03-20-2003, 04:32 PM
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Injector driver boards
A couple of people have asked me about injector driver boards. I am running a 4-barrell holley TBI, driven by a 1227747 ECM, and have designed and built a board to drive the additional 2 injectors. Since I have a request for 2 driver boards, I am planning on running another batch of boards. However, it gets a lot cheaper per board if I order more than 2 boards, so if anyone else is interested, let me know. For example, if I build 2 boards they will cost about $25 each. If I build 10, they will cost about $7.00 each.
There is a schemati and BOM on the DIY-EFI ftp site, file name is injector_driver.pdf (ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/incoming/injector_driver.pdf). The cost of the rest of the parts from Digikey is around $30.
If interested, please send me an email (corvette73@attbi.com ).
There is a schemati and BOM on the DIY-EFI ftp site, file name is injector_driver.pdf (ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/incoming/injector_driver.pdf). The cost of the rest of the parts from Digikey is around $30.
If interested, please send me an email (corvette73@attbi.com ).
03-20-2003, 09:09 PM
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By the way, I just thought I would clarify one thing. These boards are inexpensive in low quantities because they don't have any soldermask (the green coating) or silk screen (tells where the parts go) on them. There is a place in Canada (AP Circuits ) that builds boards in multiples of two. They have an NRE charge that includes the first two boards (that is the $50 in this case) and then they charge for each additional two boards based on square inches. I have used them dozens of times for simple two layer boards like this one with great success. It does pose a problem when soldering though if you don't use a soldering iron with a fairly small (< .030 or so) tip, especially on the surface mount parts. I guess I could use all through hole parts, but I can solder surface mount parts so much faster that I prefer them.
03-21-2003, 08:23 AM
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Funstick,
The circuit (lifted with pride from the one for the 1227747
) uses darlington bi-polar transisitors rather than fets. Is your question about using fets or about driving more than two injectors (i.e. four)?
The circuit (lifted with pride from the one for the 1227747
) uses darlington bi-polar transisitors rather than fets. Is your question about using fets or about driving more than two injectors (i.e. four)?
03-21-2003, 06:18 PM
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Funstick,
Does your ECM already drive two injectors (like the 747)? If so, then you would only need one board. The board takes the signal from one of the injectors to drive two more injectors. The load added to that drive signal is insignificant compared to the injector current, so it doesn't affect that injector (sucks off about one twenty millionth as much current as the injector itself). Both injectors on the 747 are driven by the same signal from the processor, so this works on the 747. I don't know about any other TBI ECM (are there other TBI ECMs?).
Does your ECM already drive two injectors (like the 747)? If so, then you would only need one board. The board takes the signal from one of the injectors to drive two more injectors. The load added to that drive signal is insignificant compared to the injector current, so it doesn't affect that injector (sucks off about one twenty millionth as much current as the injector itself). Both injectors on the 747 are driven by the same signal from the processor, so this works on the 747. I don't know about any other TBI ECM (are there other TBI ECMs?).
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03-21-2003, 07:07 PM
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Car: An Ol Buick
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Originally posted by JPrevost
I'm up for 2 boards if they're less thant $10 a piece.
I'm up for 2 boards if they're less thant $10 a piece.
Lets make this worthwhile.
If you want folks to do some heavy lifting, lets support their efforts.
This is the kind of stuff you get *just to have*.
6 months from now, you might NEED them.
03-21-2003, 07:10 PM
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Car: An Ol Buick
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Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Originally posted by funstick
id like to drive 4 p/h at 1.5-2.2 ohms each.
id like to drive 4 p/h at 1.5-2.2 ohms each.
Gads, it's not like he's asking for your first born.
03-21-2003, 07:31 PM
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The reason I didn't put four drivers on the board is that I can't conceive of any applications where 6 injectors are needed (fuel injected tri-power anyone???). You can do four injectors with your current ECM and this board. If you don't want to use your ECM's drivers, or there is some other reason you really need 4, Grumpy has the right idea.
Although, it wouldn't be too hard to build the board with four sets of drivers, since most people will only need two, I don't want to burden all the boards with the added circuit board cost.
Make sense?
Although, it wouldn't be too hard to build the board with four sets of drivers, since most people will only need two, I don't want to burden all the boards with the added circuit board cost.
Make sense?
03-21-2003, 08:54 PM
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Although, it wouldn't be too hard to build the board with four sets of drivers, since most people will only need two, I don't want to burden all the boards with the added circuit board cost.
03-22-2003, 01:01 AM
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Car: 91 Red Sled
Axle/Gears: 10bolt Richmond 3.73 Torsen
Originally posted by Grumpy
Oh come on.
Lets make this worthwhile.
If you want folks to do some heavy lifting, lets support their efforts.
This is the kind of stuff you get *just to have*.
6 months from now, you might NEED them.
Oh come on.
Lets make this worthwhile.
If you want folks to do some heavy lifting, lets support their efforts.
This is the kind of stuff you get *just to have*.
6 months from now, you might NEED them.
.I am supporting the efforts. I haven't heard you place an order yet
.It's funny, I've got a board already made, just not tested. I just used a radioshack kit. Our data aq and electronics team leader has access to a board making company that'll do anything for next to nothing. Maybe I can help if the order is small.
I know that in 6 months I will be needing it. I'm just waiting for a source for a few junk TB's for me to cut up, weld together, and flowbench WITH injector pod on.
Heck, I'll probably take a few extra no matter what the cost.
03-22-2003, 02:04 AM
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That's what I'm sayin. I might not need it NOW, but I know I'll want to tinker with it in the future.
Besides, I like to have piles and piles of neat EFI stuff laying around
JPrevost, you won't have to cut up junkyard TBI's once you see what we just made on the CNC mill. I'll see if I can get some pics of it.
Besides, I like to have piles and piles of neat EFI stuff laying around
JPrevost, you won't have to cut up junkyard TBI's once you see what we just made on the CNC mill. I'll see if I can get some pics of it.
03-22-2003, 09:27 AM
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So far, requests are:
JPrevost - 2
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
I'm getting some different size plastic boxes from All Electronics so i can find a suitable enclosure (ordered some heat sinks too). Once I get those I'll finalize the layout and order the boards.
Anyone else want to be on the list for this first run?
JPrevost - 2
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
I'm getting some different size plastic boxes from All Electronics so i can find a suitable enclosure (ordered some heat sinks too). Once I get those I'll finalize the layout and order the boards.
Anyone else want to be on the list for this first run?
03-22-2003, 09:59 PM
#18
You are splicing into the wire between the ECM and the Injector to get the drive signal for the board correct?
Not to nitpick but...... In a stock setup the injectors alternate firing (L R L R L R). They don't both fire at the same time.
So, if I'm reading that doc right, your setup alternately fires the 2 additional injectors with one of the stock ones and then the other stock one. (3 1 3 1 3 1) Correct?
Originally posted by yellow73bb
Both injectors on the 747 are driven by the same signal from the processor, so this works on the 747
Both injectors on the 747 are driven by the same signal from the processor, so this works on the 747
So, if I'm reading that doc right, your setup alternately fires the 2 additional injectors with one of the stock ones and then the other stock one. (3 1 3 1 3 1) Correct?
Last edited by Brent; 03-22-2003 at 10:03 PM.
03-22-2003, 10:20 PM
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On the 747, both injectors are driven by the same signal. The schematics that are available on the DIY site show this, and I verified it with a scope. I don't know about other EMCs. I can add another input if there are ECMs that actually do fire the injectors alternately.
Last edited by yellow73bb; 03-22-2003 at 10:57 PM.
03-23-2003, 01:10 PM
#20
While this is listed as the 8746 circuit it is identical to the 7747.
U19 and U20 are the left and right LM1949/Injector drives correct?
U19 appears to be directly driven by the RFD (U13)
U20's drive signal runs through U21 which appears to me be able to change injector firing strategy from asych to synch when the RFD tells it too.
I'm curious where you put the scope.
03-23-2003, 02:32 PM
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OK, so I am learning something here. I was probing at the injectors. Maybe this explains some unusual behavior of my engine.
When does the ECM run in synchronous mode vs. asynchronous? I must have been looking at it when it was in only one mode (synchronous?).
I will add another input (for the other injector), and put in some suggestions that Bruce sent me and upload a new schematic.
When does the ECM run in synchronous mode vs. asynchronous? I must have been looking at it when it was in only one mode (synchronous?).
I will add another input (for the other injector), and put in some suggestions that Bruce sent me and upload a new schematic.
03-23-2003, 03:04 PM
#22
I'm not precisely sure when it switches injection modes. I'm fairly certain that synch is the primary strategy.
I'll assume you scoped things while it was idling and that you have a 4bbl unit with a BPW that is lower than stock.
I believe the ECM forces asych at idle if the PW is lower than a set threshold in the PROM. I think Rbob posted some info on this earlier.
Its my bet, that inorder to prevent the BLM from plummeting at idle, because you have 4 injectors, you had to lower the BPW and VE table enough that the PW fell below this threshold.
Here are some descriptions of the modes:
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/archive.../msg00475.html
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/archive.../msg00394.html
I'll assume you scoped things while it was idling and that you have a 4bbl unit with a BPW that is lower than stock.
I believe the ECM forces asych at idle if the PW is lower than a set threshold in the PROM. I think Rbob posted some info on this earlier.
Its my bet, that inorder to prevent the BLM from plummeting at idle, because you have 4 injectors, you had to lower the BPW and VE table enough that the PW fell below this threshold.
Here are some descriptions of the modes:
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/archive.../msg00475.html
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/archive.../msg00394.html
03-23-2003, 03:44 PM
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This is a saved reply from RBOB, date unknown
When the sync PW gets too short the ECM will switch
to async injection mode. Sync mode is in time with
the spark plug firings, async mode is at 80Hz. The
80Hz rate is the internal ECM minor fuel loop rate.
However, the async injection will only take place
once enough PW time has been accumulated. In other words
the ECM keeps adding together all these short PW until
it has one large enough. This is done due to the injecter
not being able to meter a little-tiny-pulse of fuel.
Now, the problem is that the injectors are not linear
in the PW vs fuel metered graph. Here's the scenario:
The sync PW is currently short, and is getting shorter
as the engine slows down. The PW then reaches the
minimum allowed (by the cal). The ECM then switches
to async mode. Due to the non-linearity of the injector
the AFR goes a tad lean. The INT starts to climb.
As the INT increases the PW gets larger with the
result being that the ECM switches back to sync mode.
Now the AFR is a rich and the INT starts to drop.
As the PW decreases the ECM will then switch
to async mode. And the cycle repeats.
When the sync PW gets too short the ECM will switch
to async injection mode. Sync mode is in time with
the spark plug firings, async mode is at 80Hz. The
80Hz rate is the internal ECM minor fuel loop rate.
However, the async injection will only take place
once enough PW time has been accumulated. In other words
the ECM keeps adding together all these short PW until
it has one large enough. This is done due to the injecter
not being able to meter a little-tiny-pulse of fuel.
Now, the problem is that the injectors are not linear
in the PW vs fuel metered graph. Here's the scenario:
The sync PW is currently short, and is getting shorter
as the engine slows down. The PW then reaches the
minimum allowed (by the cal). The ECM then switches
to async mode. Due to the non-linearity of the injector
the AFR goes a tad lean. The INT starts to climb.
As the INT increases the PW gets larger with the
result being that the ECM switches back to sync mode.
Now the AFR is a rich and the INT starts to drop.
As the PW decreases the ECM will then switch
to async mode. And the cycle repeats.
Thanks everyone for putting all the time into making this work. This is really neat stuff here...
Last edited by V8Astro Captain; 03-23-2003 at 03:51 PM.
03-23-2003, 04:43 PM
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Brent,
I remember now reading about sync vs async modes, but does it actually fire one injector at a time? Looking at the schematic you posted, it looks like one signal, INJOUT from U13, drives one injector directly, and the other through a multiplexer, as long as the Limp signal (U13 pin 11) is low. I was assumign that that was normal operating mode, but maybe I was wrong.
When Limp goes high, you get either INJ1 or INJ2 going to the second injector, depending on the CAL8 signal when INJA is low, or you get the injectors turned on all the time if INJA is high. So, from what you are saying, it must run with the LIMP signal high, INJA signal low, and CAL8 either high or low.
Anyway, if you guys say the injectors get driven inependantly, that is good enough for me.
I remember now reading about sync vs async modes, but does it actually fire one injector at a time? Looking at the schematic you posted, it looks like one signal, INJOUT from U13, drives one injector directly, and the other through a multiplexer, as long as the Limp signal (U13 pin 11) is low. I was assumign that that was normal operating mode, but maybe I was wrong.
When Limp goes high, you get either INJ1 or INJ2 going to the second injector, depending on the CAL8 signal when INJA is low, or you get the injectors turned on all the time if INJA is high. So, from what you are saying, it must run with the LIMP signal high, INJA signal low, and CAL8 either high or low.
Anyway, if you guys say the injectors get driven inependantly, that is good enough for me.
04-02-2003, 06:29 PM
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Well, board layout is done and I will be ordering boards soon. Here's what I have:
JPrevost - 2
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
89 Iroc Z - 2
icecold - 2
Dave J - 2
RWelch - 1
That adds up to 13. The boards come in multiples of 2. Total cost for 14 boards will be $121 plus shipping, so most likely aout $10 per board.
I will order boards tomorrow, and should have them early next week. I'll post again when I get the first one up and running. Final schematics are at the DIY-EFI FTP site:
dual drive schematics
JPrevost - 2
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
89 Iroc Z - 2
icecold - 2
Dave J - 2
RWelch - 1
That adds up to 13. The boards come in multiples of 2. Total cost for 14 boards will be $121 plus shipping, so most likely aout $10 per board.
I will order boards tomorrow, and should have them early next week. I'll post again when I get the first one up and running. Final schematics are at the DIY-EFI FTP site:
dual drive schematics
04-03-2003, 01:42 AM
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Cool. Definatly save me some time. I've gotta save up some serious cash (engineering student talking here) for the lockers, a wideband o2 sensor, and these boards. A romulator would be nice but I think I can do without until source coding takes over my life . Anybody know of a dual intake for vortec heads? I was thinking of using the 96 truck lower intake and making an adaptor plate basically converting it to crossram/fire. I just have a good feeling that the ports are too small. I'd end up shooting myself in the foot like some guys do with keeping the stock TPI.
. Anybody know of a dual intake for vortec heads? I was thinking of using the 96 truck lower intake and making an adaptor plate basically converting it to crossram/fire. I just have a good feeling that the ports are too small. I'd end up shooting myself in the foot like some guys do with keeping the stock TPI.
04-03-2003, 07:29 AM
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
yellow73bb, can you re-upload the injector driver schematics? The link above is to the original set, here is the info on the new set (?):
04/02/2003 04:19AM 0 injector_driver_dual.pdf
Thanks,
RBob.
04/02/2003 04:19AM 0 injector_driver_dual.pdf
Thanks,
RBob.
04-04-2003, 08:44 AM
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Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Originally posted by JPrevost
I just have a good feeling that the ports are too small. I'd end up shooting myself in the foot like some guys do with keeping the stock TPI.
I just have a good feeling that the ports are too small. I'd end up shooting myself in the foot like some guys do with keeping the stock TPI.
At times I think folks go zippin right past what really works.
If you read up on all the wave tuning, resonante, hemholtz, and fade of the week stuff, they all tune for a tiny region at the expense of losing torque and HP every where else.
TPI is a classic design of tuned for only one area if operation.
While running a TBI with a Port ecm isn't too good of idea, running a port with a TBI seems to have worked out for Eldelbroke.
04-05-2003, 04:56 PM
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How many do you want?
I haven't sent the board off to be built because I wanted to spend a little more time checking. I hope to get it sent off tomorrow.
I haven't sent the board off to be built because I wanted to spend a little more time checking. I hope to get it sent off tomorrow.
04-06-2003, 07:40 PM
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JPrevost - 2
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
89 Iroc Z - 2
icecold - 2
Dave J - 2
RWelch - 1
Justme - 2
Steve - 1
Up to 16.
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
89 Iroc Z - 2
icecold - 2
Dave J - 2
RWelch - 1
Justme - 2
Steve - 1
Up to 16.
Last edited by yellow73bb; 04-06-2003 at 11:15 PM.
04-07-2003, 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by yellow73bb
JPrevost - 2
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
89 Iroc Z - 2
icecold - 2
Dave J - 2
RWelch - 1
Justme - 2
Steve - 1
Up to 16.
JPrevost - 2
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
89 Iroc Z - 2
icecold - 2
Dave J - 2
RWelch - 1
Justme - 2
Steve - 1
Up to 16.
04-07-2003, 04:42 PM
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I'm still good for 2. I don't know if I'll ever get to use them but I'll still take em. I've got everything I need to convert my manifold to port injection. I just need to make the injector boss' and aquire the plugs for LS1 injectors. Oh well, I'll probably still try out a 4 barrel TBI for the fun of it. Would be great to use the 8746 and be in the low 12's n/a and pass NJ's sniff test.
04-07-2003, 08:11 PM
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JPrevost - 2
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
icecold - 2
Dave J - 2
RWelch - 1
Justme - 2
Steve - 1
John (32V_DOHC)- 2
John (Yellow73bb) - 1
I think that's it for the first batch. I ordered 20, and will build one for my car first to make sure they are completely functional. Then I'll let all of you know that they are ready.
Bruce - 2-4
V8Astro - 2
icecold - 2
Dave J - 2
RWelch - 1
Justme - 2
Steve - 1
John (32V_DOHC)- 2
John (Yellow73bb) - 1
I think that's it for the first batch. I ordered 20, and will build one for my car first to make sure they are completely functional. Then I'll let all of you know that they are ready.
Last edited by yellow73bb; 04-09-2003 at 08:29 AM.
04-08-2003, 12:49 PM
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yellow73bb
where in oregon are you?
where in oregon are you?
04-11-2003, 12:27 AM
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I received the boards yesterday, they look good. I am waiting for the rest of the parts so I can build and test the first one. I would appreciate if all of the people who want boards would please email me with your shipping information. While orderig heatsinks, I ordered a whole bunch more (they were only 3/$1) If you want me to include two heatsinks per baord, please let me know in the email. Also, I am assuming everyone will want a connector with pigtails that mates to the board. Cost for this should be less than $1. I have the tool to crimp the terminals so I can make them. If you want one or more of these, please so indicate. The cost of the boards will be about $8.75. I will add shipping, and also heatsinks, and connectors if desired.
04-11-2003, 02:05 AM
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Originally posted by yellow73bb
I will add shipping, and also heatsinks, and connectors if desired.
I will add shipping, and also heatsinks, and connectors if desired.
.Sounds good. Best way would be to mass e-mail everybody. Do you accept paypal?
04-11-2003, 08:26 AM
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That would be the easiest way for everyone but me I have to go find everyone's email addresses.
Paypal is fine. Does everyone have their email addresses available on the forum so I can get them?
I have to go find everyone's email addresses.Paypal is fine. Does everyone have their email addresses available on the forum so I can get them?
04-12-2003, 05:47 PM
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I built two boards and tested both. They both work great. I haven't done an accurate temperature test yet, but with the engine running at mid range, pulsing the throttle continuosly to get higher pulse width, the heatsinks were slightly warm to the touch after a while. I think they will be fine, but plan to test them some more with my thermocouple attached.
I have ship confirmations for 12 boards. When you send me emails, please include your username on this forum so I can figure out who is who, as it is not always obvious from your email address.
John.
P.S. I'll try to attach some pictures after my camera batteries charge back up.
Here they are:
Top side of board:
Bottom side of board:
Board in box:
I have ship confirmations for 12 boards. When you send me emails, please include your username on this forum so I can figure out who is who, as it is not always obvious from your email address.
John.
P.S. I'll try to attach some pictures after my camera batteries charge back up.
Here they are:
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Bottom side of board:
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Last edited by yellow73bb; 04-12-2003 at 11:37 PM.
04-15-2003, 08:29 AM
#44
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Sorry. I have emails and addresses to ship to from everyone but icecold, Bruce, and JPrevost.
I am building cables, and testing the boards some more, but should have them ready to ship before too much longer.
Sorry for the delay.
I am building cables, and testing the boards some more, but should have them ready to ship before too much longer.
Sorry for the delay.
04-15-2003, 08:53 AM
#45
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Car: 91 Red Sled
Axle/Gears: 10bolt Richmond 3.73 Torsen
What's wrong with my current e-mail address? It's prevost.3@osu.edu
04-17-2003, 05:02 PM
#46
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...sooo, If I read correctly, if my 'puter is designed to run 2 injectors, and I want to run 4 additional, I would need 2 boards?
If ordering is still possible, hook me up.
If ordering is still possible, hook me up.
04-17-2003, 06:27 PM
#47
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Blazerguy,
Your ECM will drive the first two injectors and you will need one board to drive the additional two injectors.
I don't know how many people on the list will actually end up buying boards. I'll add you on the list. please send me your shipping address.
I haven't sent out the final amount yet. I am now working on documentation to help people put the parts on the boards and get it all running.
John.
Your ECM will drive the first two injectors and you will need one board to drive the additional two injectors.
I don't know how many people on the list will actually end up buying boards. I'll add you on the list. please send me your shipping address.
I haven't sent out the final amount yet. I am now working on documentation to help people put the parts on the boards and get it all running.
John.
04-21-2003, 12:05 AM
#50
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Car: '92 Rally Sport
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700R4
Hey John, if you don't mind doing another run you might want to start another list. I'm in for 2 with heat sinks and connectors and it looks like we've got some more interest here. I'm sure more people will fall in as the word gets out... hmmmm. maybe I could get Tim to make a link to this as a sticky on the TBI board for a week or two.
Later,
Harry
Later,
Harry