I've just recieved the Jan. 2003 issue of the mag. and they updated the TPI Magnum project and got times out of it. They got a 12.30et out of it at 109mph after installing a 2k aftermarket computer. The thing I want to bi*ch about though, is there promtion of the Accel DFI gen 7 unit. They said they only made 226rwhp with an AFR headed, big cammed, superramed, 396 using the stock ECM. Geeminnie christmas, is this a misprint or what? They made right at a 100 more rwhp after swapping to the DFI? They said the two problems were the "stock computer" and the "restriction in the inlet ducting". They even had a custom chip burnt. I thought I read a post a month or so back where one of the editors cleared this confusion up and said that the 226hp numbers were with a stock tpi system, no superram, and the stock chip. If that is the case, then why would this crap get printed in the new magazine? I think everyone on this board knows that power can be made with the stock computer, but this magazine article is going to mislead a lot of people that don't know any better.

Knowing how "I wash your back, you wash mine" goes at car magazines - its obvious that Accel gave the unit for free (as in we give you a unit - you give mag publicity).

That car is a sled - I'll be at Hi-Tech this Sat and will let you know what times the car runs (if it doesn't rain).

paul, u goin to Etown this weekend, cool... i will be there, along with 10-15 others... we are going in memory of erik brackman aka Xenodrgn... he was a good friend to all of us in NJ... we are goin to run down there... u will see us all together.. just look for a bunch of 3rd gens....

bigal,

I hope the weather holds out - they are calling for 50 degrees and rain for Sat (zhit).

I will be there if the weather is cooperating and you will find me floating around.

First of all, we at GMHTP smoke only the finest Dominican and Nicaraguan cigars. I personally prefer Lars Tetens and Acids, but I'm guessing this is more a Swisher Sweets audience (just kidding!).

There is no GMHTP race at Englishtown this weekend and that is the primary reason I will not be there. Instead, I'll be splitting a pizza with my daughter who I haven't spent quality time with in over a week.

Bitch all you want, but read the stories a little more carefully or risk looking silly. The 396 in this car had a really bad tune in it when it was first dynoed. The engine itself was a really neat piece, which I tend to think was proven once the tune was achieved with the DFI unit. Is my car a sled? Depends on what you're comparing it with. It's 3625 pounds, daily driven (100 miles a day), runs on 93 octane pump gas with no blower, turbo or nitrous, has all its smog equipment, a full interior, stereo, heater, a/c, overdrive, stock 3.27 gears and passes NJ emissions. It also hasn't been run since the new 4-inch inlet tube and larger K&N filter has been installed (although it did run a 12.30/109 with the stock intake ducting and non-functioning MAF sensor--this summer in the heat).

I have been 100 percent forthcoming about documenting everything that has happened with this 14-year-old car. It is my car however, and I'll build it the way I want. I'm 39 years old, not a kid out of high school. I can afford to do it nicely and I'll make no apologies for it. If you want budget-oriented tech for third gens, tune in to Steve Baur's TPI project car which has been running concurrently.

BTW, I'm still waiting to see something in the mail from someone making this kind of horsepower (354 rwph) from a similarly specced smog-legal engine using a completely stock ECM. You want to make a believer out of me and the rest of our readers? Stop belly aching and send me some proof.

Am I being unfair in extending (once again) this standing offer?

Al, what happened to Xenodrgn? Not being stupid, seriously. I haven't checked out the boards as closely lately. And Johnny, pass what you are smokin! No really, what type of intake did you come up with? Do you have any pictures? My motor swap is almost complete and the intake is really the only thing i have not changed! Any help would be great. Good luck with the car, maybe we'll race when i have mine tuned. Later

Johnny, let me start off by saying that I have enjoyed the buildup and think that you have an awesome engine. I've even sent you email about how much I have enjoyed your buildup and you sent me a reply. I know your engine is great on the street and those are impressive times, although I do believe that you should be and will be running 11's. I have no advice on how to get there, it seems you have it tuned and everything already. Maybe the intake track is restricting it as you say it is??? Maybe it needs some steeper gears? I wish I knew.

As for proof of someone making similar power with a similar setup, I offer myself. I have a rebuilt 355 from my stock L98 with stock crank, stock rods, and TRW forged pistons. It has AFR 190's (out of the box), SuperRam (unported), LPE 219 cam, FULL interior with radio delete, runs 92-94 pump gas ALWAYS, still has cool a/c, and the car is my daily driver as long as the weather is nice. It has power windows, power locks, power mirrors, and power driver's seat. I'm running the stock 165 ecm with stock MAF w/ no screens and have not tuned it yet. I have burnt 1 PROM so far and it is ALL guesses for the fuel, timing, and EVERYTHING. After I get a wide-band O2 sensor, I will start the tuning process and burn some new PROMs. The car does not currently have all the smog equipment on it, but I do have Edelbrock headers with AIR tubes that are capped at the moment and my smog pump is in my basement and could easily be put back on. The cat is still present in the exhaust, although it is hollow.

I've run a best of 12.39 @ 109.53 (on BFG Drag Radials) on a hot and humid summer day with an untuned car, that is with my 280lbs. in the driver seat. This was also my first time ever at a dragstrip as a spectator or driver. I drove 1 hour to the track with the a/c on, ran 12.39 @ 109.53 and 12.42 @ 109.00, and drove back home with the a/c on again. I KNOW the car has more power left in it b/c I have briefly logged some data from the stock 165 ecm and it is retarding my timing and the BLM's are off, in some cases way off. I'm aiming for 11.9's @ 111-112 once everything is tuned and maybe with better headers.

Everything I have done to my car can be seen on my website:

www.geocities.com/buckeyeroc

and a couple videos can be seen here, including one of me racing an 89 Turbo TA:

www.netgearhead.org/iroc

If you have any questions, please feel free to email me.

This is in NO WAY a flame on Johnny, his combo is solid and I think he will see 11's as soon as he finds whatever is holding him back.

PS-I'd TOTALLY be willing to be a part of an article in GMHTP to see what a good tuner could get out of my engine with the stock ecm by dyno tuning it And see what it runs at the track afterwards.

Pretty nice man, keep up the good work. I am hoping for results similar! Wish it was a little warmer though.

86, he passed away this past friday morning.... we are going to etown, to suposedly the GMHTP race... is ther really no race?... we were all going to go and race in memory of erik..... i will be there to race, and so will 10 or so other people... i hope the weather clears up..... eriks up there... he'll make it nice a sunny for saturday.... well be smokin tires just for him!

Johnny,

I appreciate your honesty. I think we all understand that cars have issues; some more than others. At least Magnum is getting faster!

I have always wondered why car mags take out of the box parts (Superram, AFR heads) and port them. I find it hard to see the repeatability for the reader when "custom" porting exists. The same thing was done when Magnum had a 350 and Trick Flow Heads. Do you think that the heads on Project Magnum have poor velocity distribution b/c of the porting?

I am looking at Buckeyeroc's specs, and Magnum's specs. Comparing them, I see a general trend of better parts on Magnum. I see more cubic inches, bigger (maybe better?) headers, heads with additional porting, ported Superram, more advanced computer and, of course I am sure better engine internals. Now, soley judging by mph in the 1/4 it seems that Buckeyeroc's car has attained VERY similar, if not more, power than Magnum. I think you are being fair by extending the offer. It seems that it has been accepted and exceeded by Buckeyeroc's car.

Also, is the cam in Magnum smog legal? I thought it was a farily large (compared to emmissions cams) Comp Cams grind? If so, what are the specs? Thanks

I am sorry to hear Hi-Tech is cancelled.

I'm also sorry to hear that Johnny Hunkins quoted me (I thought he didn't even post on this board) making a statement about the project car.

12.30 is not bad, by any measure, but 109mph isn't great for a 396ci motor in a 3600lb car - I'm sure tuning will add another 5mph and get the car into the 11's, but there are a boatload of third genners running low 12's with 350s and less radical parts. Kinda makes the LS1 guys laugh at us even more - which isn't much appreciated since we bat on the same team.

All in all I hope to see the Hi-tech car eventually run 11.50 at 120+ when all is said and done - for the simple reason that I may go with a similar 396, and it better be worth the $10k or so.

If I remember correctly the TPIS 350 project car ran exactly the same time (12.3) at 112mph with milder parts on a 350 a while back in PHR or CHP (can't remeber which).

Will the track still be open Saturday to run if the rain stays away?

To Johnny Hunkins - I am a subscriber to GMHTP and have followed the Magnum TPI story from the beginning. First, I'd like to say that I'm glad you guys have the car running despite all the mishaps! Also, I feel that there should be some more power in that combo with a few changes. I would change from Mass Air to Speed Density, change the air intake track to a custom cold air kit, (Or maybe SLP could donate one of their cold air kits for it), then recalibrate the DFI for those changes. That may add the extra ponies that you are looking for! Will Magnum TPI have an update in the next GMHTP? Good luck with your project!

Mike (1bad91Z)

I just picked up and read that issue last night. While the 354 rwhp
was impressive, I was even more impressed with the near 500
lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels. I was just wondering how
your 60' times have been and if you have been able to get it to
hook up very well.

I have also been following the MAgnum TPI project with great anticipation from day one. I am following a similar route with my 1989 Formula 350, but the route originally planned before the Magnum's stock motor went south.

I do applaud Johnny for doing an extensive build up like this on a thirdgen. Most of the thirdgen buildups I see are maybe over 2 or three issues and limited in detail. GMHTP has been featuring this car for over 2 years worth of issues.

Who cares if GMHTP gets their parts for free. They get the part, run, use it, abuse it, and then report on it.

I am trying to get my STOCK head, cam, and bottom end Formula to run a 12.99 or Better E/T. So far, my best is 13.56@100.23-and I have not even installed headers yet!!!

I have sent in my pics and info to the "Street Heat" section. I would be very interested in doing a story about the buildup of this car for other thirdgen readers to gain confidence in their cars instead of just giving up and buying a LT1/LS1 car. I live pretty close to Jim McIlvane, who I'm sure would help me write it up.

The heads have NEVER been removed and the cam and bottom end are 100% stock.

Mods I still need to do:
-Fiberglass hood and spoiler
-Install SLP headers
-Install Accel 300+ ignition
- Install 1.6 Roller rockers
-Install Spohn Torque arm
-Program a new PROM chip


My mods are listed in my signiture:

OMG - you have to be kidding me? I would recommend doing some research before asking that question.

I ran 12.2's@112mph in virtually smog-legal trim on a GM 730 ECM that I tuned myself. I have a MiniRam so I didn't have EGR but who cares. EGR doesn't rob power anyhow since it doesn't operate at WOT. I ran this time at MIR and the people from MAFB who hosted the event can verify it. I only had the stock 350 motor - NEVER PULLED - NEVER REBUILT along with a 700R4 that has never been rebuilt. No Force and no Juice and on Drag Radials to boot! With me in the car it weighed close to 3600lbs. I am now far away from what I did way back then and no longer care about smog-legal or AC. Looking for easy 11's on the stock motor in drag trim.

You want another customer? How about Michael Davis who ran 11.9's in smog-legal trim with a 355 on a large tube runner setup. His car looks totally stock to the innocent bystander. I personally witnessed this car run and Mike documents EVERYTHING he does. Ask Kevin C about him. Heck - ask Kevin C about me. Check out his website at:
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/

109mph with a 396'd SuperRammed motor is sad. I hold nothing against you or GMHTP - I am just stating the facts. I ran 109mph with my 350 with a large tube runner setup with a weak cam. Mike was doing 111mph. You should be in the 11's at around 115mph. Figure out what is wrong - something just isn't right. Either the person tuning the motor isn't doing it correctly or something is mechanically wrong. GMHTP needs to get that beast flying because it should have a lot of extra power holed up in there somewhere. 350ci engines these days are laying down close to 400rwhp with the right combination and tuning. That 396 should be capable for 400+ rwhp in smog-legal trim.

Tim

That Nick Fusco guy with the '87 Formula is running 11's with his stock, never unbolted, bottom end.

That car has good set of heads, lots of cam and a Superram.

It was featured in Hot Rod and Hi-Perf Pontiac.

TRAXION, why aren't you in a magazine yet?
I hope to get some fine tuning done with my setup and do an article for carcraft. It'll be titled, "Cheap bastard gets TBI to perform."

In the mail, I have received a whopping "zero" number of verifiable 11-second, naturally-aspirated TPI cars with street-legal emission gear. Hell, I even took Magnum to the official state inspection station rather than a private garage--just to spite the state of NJ. Forget about 350s, I've not seen even one 383, 396 or even a 406 for that matter which could get through the dyno smog test and run an 11 on motor. Yeah, if you throw away the smog gear, put on full-length headers, slide in a big cam and put in a non-highway gear you can go 11s like Nick Fusco. That was his choice and I'm sure there are times when he wishes he could still drive it legally on the street too.

C'mon guys. Don't crank up the ol' "internet horsepower factory" just for me! That doesn't do anybody any good, it only confuses the issue. Mail me some real proof. Photos. Timeslips. Spec sheets. Send me something I can put my hands on and put in the book. If somebody has already been where I'm headed (that is, with the street-legal gig), I need to know about it

I have never claimed to be the ultimate horsepower expert, I'm just a magazine editor with a jones for speed. Yet I am capable of producing a live, running car, albeit one still in the making. In spite of all the experts at my disposal, I've found almost none of them have the practical experience I'm looking for in this area.

Going fast is easy. Going fast and staying on the right side of the law is tough, but I think ultimately possible. But you know what, even if I fail, I'll still tell you every gory detail--something you're not likely to get anywhere else.

Johnny, I have a VERY similar combo to yours. No, I don't have smog stuff on my car, but we have no emissions testing where I live and if we did, all I would have to do is put my smog pump back on.

Here is proof of my times:

http://www.geocities.com/buckeyeroc/timeslipic.html

The rest of my proof is on the two webpages I linked in my first post above, including two videos.

ALL the info that I have can be verified by any means deemed necessary. My car is and runs exactly what is posted above and listed on my websites.

To Johnny,

http://www.corvetteforum.net/c4/beach_bum/

This knowledgable guy could probably answer your question on if a smog-legal, N/A, TPI (superram) car can run 11's on pump gas. Oh yeah, he also uses the STOCK 85 computer w/a Formato chip. I believe an 85 computer is also a lot more dated in terms of technology compared to an 88+ ECM, which brings me back to the point I was trying to make. What was everything mod wise when the car put 226hp to the wheels? Or was that like at 2000rpms. I'm just baffled on how the Gen 7 "unlocked a bucket load of power", which were talk'n over 100hp.

Finally, I don't mean to insult you by the subject title, and I completely respect anyone that has an awesome job like yours. I also love the setup on the Magnum TPI Formula, and think you could be looking at a lot more power with some long tube headers, porting on the SR, and further tuning. Good luck.

Buckeyeroc,

I think you're probably putting close to 320hp to wheels with your times and you haven't really even started tuning. So yeah, you're real close to running 11's w/some tuning and that's with the Edelcrocks! I just looked at my headers and how crappy the collectors are and I know for sure that I'll be going with Super Comps early next year after the 383 has been broken in and I have some more $$. Later

This guy's Corvette sounds nice, but no way does a car with long-tube headers, no smog pump, no catalytic converters and four hundred pounds less weight have any connection whatsoever with our project car.

Read my lips, "smog legal." Not sorta-kinda, nudge-nudge, wink-wink, smog-legal.

Nice Corvette though. The weight aspect is one reason I'm considering getting a C4 to add to the fleet.

EGR and the air pump don't hurt performance so just say that vette has long tubes and weighs less.
My car passed the sniff test in NJ including a visual inspection!! That was at the official state inspection center. I was lucky about the no EGR . I had a cat but no air or EGR, still passed sniff test. The only reason for removing those is to clean up the engine bay.
I think the issue here is not 11's on a TPI street legal setup. It's about gaining 100hp from swapping ecm's!?!?!?!? That doesn't make sence and BuckeyeROC has just made that point along with Trax. As for getting into the 11's, that's great and all and you should be there with or without that expensive aftermarket DFI. A quality custom tune with the stock ecm would make just as much power all else being equal.
I'm not one to talk though. I've only got the cheap vortec crate motor running 102mph with TBI and OEM computer no tuning.
Does this "tuner" of your stock ecm have a dyno and wideband o2 sensor or is his name Ed Wright aka Fastchip?

I think you nailed this issue with what you said. As soon as I saw that their project car went to an aftermarket engine management system (presumably because they didn't want to learn the factory system like the rest of us do), i lost interest. The factory ECM is fully capable of handling it, and I don't like replacing parts just because I don't understand them. To me, it's kinda like taking an LT1 and putting a carb on it because ya don't want to learn the LT1's ECM.

Now I realize the car is JH's personal car, and that's cool, I think it's neat that he is doing his own thing. But specifically in the context of *GM*HTP, dumping GM's computer is, to me, not in the spirit of the magazine. But I guess you have to publish what ya got.

a non-factory ECM is blatantly NON smog legal in california anways So is "modifying" the factory PROM but at least they'll never know because it looks stock.

so guys the GMHTP efi races at englishtown tomarrow (10/26) are cancelled? i know it will be raining till about noonish time tomarrow but is it cancelled?

There never was a GMHTP race scheduled for this weekend.
It's actually a GM EFI race with no affiliation to the magazine.

When Magnum TPI was purchased, the original stock computer and PROM were already missing. (Anybody got a back issue they care to quote from?) Ed Wright did originally try to help me, but we never had the stock computer or program to start with.

For a variety of reasons, the presence of smog gear on a TPI motor does hinder performance, which is precisely why everybody removes it as soon as they can.

The DFI on Magnum TPI was tuned on a dyno with a wide-band O2 sensor and data logging.

I just can't understand the wholesale criticism of the Gen 7 DFI. It is truly a breakthrough product at a breakthrough price. The stock ECM doesn't even come close in terms of tuning flexibility. Another editorial consideration is that the DFI applies to many other cars than just third-gen F-bodies.

There is already a wealth of minutia on ECM programming right here on this website, so it's pointless to do a story, at least with the limited time we have. I understand that guys with stock ECMs like doing it this way because it's cheaper, but when you just don't have the time to do it right, the results are not going to be good. Yes, the knee-jerk reaction is to insult the magazine, but that belies a lack of understanding for both the project itself, and the unique constraints we work under.

A few things; There are basically 2 TPI ecm's you can use. There's the MAF and the speed density. Speed density is best for the kind of buildup you were doing so long as you're tuning the tables. The PROM is just a starting point. If you've got a big motor start with something that has similar bore:stroke ratio then if it's an auto or stick etc. It's really straight forward.
Ed Wright can NOT tune your car without seeing what's going on. I've seen his work and I've always been disapointed. Yes better than stock but ANYBODY could program an eprom to be better than stock just by adding more timing midrange!!! So there you have it, a 7730 ecm with a starting bin recommended by the diy-eprom board.
Wrong. Smog does not hinder performance unless you count the 1/4 of a hp it takes to spin something that's already being drawn by vacuum from the exhaust! The smog injects air into the manifolds to warm up the o2 sensor and burn off the hydrocarbons. Air is then switched to go into the middle of the cat(s) to again burn off the bad stuff. The air/smog system is tapped into the exhaust in such a way that there is actually vacuum!!! Think of it as a similar racing PCV system which also uses exhaust vacuum.
The reason why people remove it is because it doesn't work very well and it's clutter. Just like the heater switch removal or the a/c not working so remove it. It's about cleaning up the engine bay so we can get to our spark-plugs easier .
This is strange considering you've only got a 109mph. It sounds as if there was more of a focus on tuning the fuel and leaving the timing alone. Get more aggressive with the timing until there is detonation but I'm sure you already know that, just trying to help.

The criticism is that a 109mph still isn't good with your engine combo no matter WHAT computer you're using. I don't know if I'd call it a breakthrough price but like you said. Most of us here like the already advanced OEM computers. Grumpy said it best when he explained that GM computers already come with good code and lots of compensation while aftermarket has more of a dummy proof tuning for performance at the sacrifice of options (highway modes, fan control, emissions equipment controls, fail-safe modes) and it's all free .
When it comes to tuning flexibility I'd like to know what you mean. Obviously it's not the timing and fuel controls so what exactly is so more flexible with the aftermarket? I have a flash chip that lets me select between 8 programs on the fly, isn't that flexible enough. I do understand the time issue and it's mostly because of people that sell other peoples info for profit. If that wasn't such a problem right now I'm sure this GM-ecm stuff would be a lot smoother.

There sure is a lot of info here and isn't that why you SHOULD do a story? Obviously GM doesn't mind you going with an aftermarket ECM so why would they care if you modified an old GM ecm?
I guess I shouldn't bother reading the article if this is under such "unique constraints" that it would never make any sence to me. just busting your chops. I really do wish you the best of luck. I hope you get everything running right but I would have liked it even more if you wouldn't have said the DFI made so much more power when in buckeyeroc's case it looks like the GM ecm is kicking your Gen 7 DFI butt.
Again, I haven't read the whole article but I have a feeling that most of what I've said is correct just by going on what has been posted.

Well, this does help the understanding a little. I guess I must have not read that issue carefully enough
I have to say that I agree with the first response, this can't be true. The EGR dutycycle is set to 0% at WOT, so it's effectively not there. ditto for most of the other smog stuff. I don't know if the DFI system you are using is capable of controlling the smog equipment, but the factory GM ecm certainly is capable of not only controlling it, but disabling it at WOT so that it's effectively not even there and thus no hinderance to performance.
I guess most of us just don't see it as a breakthrough product, or even a practical one that we would consider for our own projects. It's about as good as ten year old GM stuff for the most part (with a few exceptions), and it costs WAY more, and it doesn't automatically come with our cars. Also don't see the major HP increase from switching systems, either - If you have the same timing and the same fuel, you have the same power, which leads one to believe that the old system was not tuned correctly or it would have produced the same numbers. Hence the (hopefully constructive) criticism. It's just something that most of us would never use, and i daresay is out of the budget of most thirdgenners (otherwise most of us would be driving LS1 4th gens). I think the stock ECM probably has a lot MORE tuning flexibility, more than you are aware of, granted you have to work a little harder to get to it. Now, in the context of the magazine, what you say does make some sense though. relatively speaking the DFI is still "high tech" and could be used in any kind of car. I guess most of us just don't see it as the practical choice for a TPI f-body.
I don't really think it's pointless to do a story. Not everyone has access to thirdgen.org or even knows of it's existance, and tuning in general (whether it be factory ECM or DFI or whatever) still has yet to be brought to the average guy or gal wrenching on their fuel injected hotrod. I think an article by and for the "newbie", if done right, could be tremendous! the factory ecm really isn't that scary at all, it's just the learning curve is intimidating.

Hope none of this is taken as an insult to you or the magazine (it's not meant that way!), but rather a clarification of my beliefs and opinions of the subject at hand.

To Johnny Hunkins -

You said the ECM was missing from the car when you got it.

Just curious, but before you guys installed the Gen VII DFI, what kind of ECM were you using to get the original dyno results (pre Gen VII) and DID Ed Wright do the chip for that ECM?

Mike (1bad91Z)

1) It doesn't matter that the stock ECM was missing. You obviously got a replacement GM 165 along with a new MemCal. Also - if I recall correctly - Kevin C tuned your PROM a little bit. There was no point even bringing up that you didn't have a computer / memcal because, well, somebody bought a replacement and put it into the car.

2) To say that smog equipment hinders performance is rediculous. That's old school thought Johnny ... old school. The EGR is not active at WOT. AIR is not active at WOT. The only thing that I could even come close to agreeing with on this one is the horsepower necessary to turn the AIR pump and the backpressure created by the catalytic converters. However, high flow catalytic converters rob hardly any horsepower. They really do a great job - especially if you size them bigger than what you need. It takes more horsepower to turn your water pump or your alternator or your power steering than to turn the AIR pump. That thing hardly takes any power (especially considering the vacuum issues already stated). The key here is removing stuff to clean up the engine bay and to make maintenance easier. The fact that the AIR diverter valves are over the passenger side valve cover makes the AIR system a PRIME CANTIDATE to be removed. The AIR system is very much in the way of everything a hot rodder wants to do. The emissions stuff gets removed because it is in the way, crowds up the engine bay, and makes maintenance more difficult.

3) DFI has A LOT over a stock ECM. But, at the same time a stock ECM has A LOT over DFI. If you really want to get into some of the specifics of this then you should consider reading a post on the power adder forum. I have linked it here:
http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=139265

4) If you are going to do an article on a thirdgen then wouldn't it be best to go to those people who read your magazine that have thirdgens and talk with them? This board has some of the best information that you can get on thirdgens. Plus, you'll end up printing something that your readers WANT to read. Although some of us (including me) have thousands and thousands of dollars into our thirdgens, it is evident that the thirdgen is now an affordable american-made 'starter' performance car for the young people. I have seen the number of young people who own thirdgens fly through the roof. They can't afford DFI. Yes, I know that you can ... and I can ... but the majority cannot. So - why not work with the stock PROM on a dyno with someone who knows what they are doing. When the article is just about done THEN put your DFI in. Heck - that's my plan. Another article that every thirdgen geek wants is something that you probably have access to but don't do. An intake comparo/shootoff. Compare the MiniRam, SuperRam, StealthRam, RamJet, EFI Single Plane, Large Tube Runner, Semi-Siamesed LTR, and the stock setup. I know that a very small, knowledgeable local group I am involved with (that includes someone you know) would gladly work with you since we have all of those intakes except for the RamJet.

Again - I would like to say that I don't have anything against GMHTP or any of its staff. It is *THE* magazine that I look forward to receiving in my mailbox. It's just that the thirdgen has continuously been given the shaft in so many different ways - even when there is a huge knowledgebase and GMHTP has access to what their readers want to read about thirdgens. If you just sit down and talk with some of us you would see what I mean. We can easily get a ~400 ci engine into the 11's naturally aspirated and smog legal ... where smog legal means that the car looks totally smog legal on a visual inspection and it passes the sniffer. Heck - if it passes the sniffer then for all potential purposes it is helping the environment no matter what the gubment has to say anyhow.

Tim

While my car is not smog legal in states that I live nowhere near, I did run my car at the track EXACTLY the way is runs on the street. Magnum TPI had M/T ET Streets and skinnies on running the 12.30 @ 109.4. While I ran my 12.39 @ 109.53 with my 16x8 stock IROC wheels on the front with 245/50/16 Bridgestone Potenzas and stock 16x8 IROC wheels on the rear with 255/50/16 BFG Drag Radials (which are the ONLY tires I have for the car, so yes, I ALWAYS drive with them on the street). I doubt Magnum TPI drives 100 miles a day with ET Streets and skinnies on.

I like the idea about comparing the different intakes for our cars in a real world test, like a shoot out! All i hear now is Stealth Ram this, and Stealth Ram that! I just got my miniram this spring, right before the Stealth Ram got popular and well known, and now when i post about the miniram, i hear Stealth Ram is better or Stealth Ram is cheaper. I still have yet to see any numbers off of a Stealth Ram motor from people on this board. Well, i really have not been looking but all people talk about is its price and no talk about its performance. I would really like to see a shoot out like that. Especially if it would be held in my backyard over at Englishtown! I would go to that in a heart beat to see what all the HYPE is really about since i live 25 mins away. And it is a great point about printing stuff that we WANT to read about. I think if we want that though, it would take a thirdgen magazine instead of a magazine that sticks in the occasional story for those "extra" readers to buy. Sorry to get off topic but this thread is getting pretty good. Keep bringing all of the good points-Bryan Also on the post above, i believe he borrowed the wheels for the testing! Another good point about running in street trim.

this is a good post. i am not real educated on ecm programming dfi or anywhere near. but i'm wondering why the numbers are so close between buc and jon, i don't think the smog is bogging the engine down that much. infact i would expect more hp than a 350 w/ a 396 with displacent alone. but some one enlighten me. i like these posts verry informative. jprevost please e-mail me

I want to see this too! I could even loan the effort my new / uninstalled accel superram base and AS&M Semi-Siamese runners, so long as they found their way back to me unharmed

Okay guys, we're going in circles here, so I think I'm done for now. If you've got a real 11-second TPI car, send it in, emissions legal or not.

I just had to go back and edit this post. There are exactly zero 11-second third gens listed on the reader's rides section of this website. And that's out of how many members? I guess I don't have to feel so bad now because I'm in fine company!

hey johnny why hasn't GMHTP done a story on monty and his twin turbo 427 vette?
i mean 1200 hp on pump gas is impressive

What does it matter that there are zero 11 second cars listed on this site? We are comparing our 350/383 cars to your 396 car, which doesn't run 11's either

Car people read tech magazines for fair & real world comparisons, correct methods of modifications, and general "they should know the best way to do this" kind of guidance.

I've read the buildup of Magnum TPI since it's first article and have been losing faith in you guys after reading each update. With direct links to the best parts suppliers and performance shops, you sure have spent a ton of cash (or expected your readers to) and have had very poor returns in performance.

You now have a 396 that only runs low 12's in full race trim and are still using some excuse each time you print the new test results. This month it's a restrictive intake and what else? I can't remember...I can't believe you printed that the stock ECM couldn't be tuned to run your combo. Just have to get that $2,000 DFI or the car won't go, huh?

What I'm trying to say (and harshly, I admit), is that there are many guys on this board and many more on the street that run as good or better than you with much smaller & less modified engines and much less cash spent. Why don't we just call Magnum a waste of money (not time) and move on to a new idea? And yes, I will still look forward to reading your articles each and every time

...there are many guys on this board and many more on the street that run as good or better than you...

Many more?

I can't find one. My point is that not you, nor anybody else should feel good about criticizing (vehemently, no less) our efforts when those people haven't produced the results. It's simple. Take me to school, but show me you know something first.

With time, we will figure this out and tell you about it. Guys like Nick Fusco and Preston Smith can spend 10 years or more to tweak a TPI combo, so it can work. I don't think it's a waste of time if you get your objective in the end.

http://www.montygwilliams.com/

http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=115582

Wait, we went from this: "Originally posted by Johnny Hunkins:
BTW, I'm still waiting to see something in the mail from someone making this kind of horsepower (354 rwph) from a similarly specced smog-legal engine using a completely stock ECM. You want to make a believer out of me and the rest of our readers? Stop belly aching and send me some proof.

Am I being unfair in extending (once again) this standing offer? "

To this:

Now my car has to run 11's instead of making similar numbers to yours? I ran almost IDENTICAL numbers to your's in very similar weather on a worse track and have the slips and videos and car to prove it. I understand you have a smog-legal car and I don't, but my car does not have to pass smog, otherwise, I would have all that stuff on. And like others have said, the smog stuff is effectively turned off under WOT. And like I said above, I am running the same numbers you did with 41 less cubes, smaller cam, an untuned stock ecm, and did it on my real street tires, not racing slicks with a few "treads" cut in them and skinnies on the front of my car.

I am in NO WAY saying my car is better than yours. And I am not criticizing you, in fact, if you look at your old emails and my earlier posts, I have enjoyed your buildup and still think your car is sweet. All I'm saying is you asked for someone making similar power with a similar combo with a stock ecm. I'm doing it. If I tune my way to an 11.9, would you consider speaking with me? Or do I have to put my smog pump back on AND run 11.9? Or just put the pump back on and run 12.3 @ 109 again?

Let me be more specific. I'm looking for someone with experience making similar power with full emissions compliance. I'll be going to the track on Thursday with the new inlet pipe. This whole debate could be for nothing.

Nuff said. I honestly still believe that you will get the car into the 11's with enough tinkering. Again, I have enjoyed the buildup and eagerly awaited every issue of GMHTP to see what your car was doing. I won't be surprised when you have Magnum TPI on the cover with "11 Seconds" splashed on it.

Johnny,

Obviously, you don't remember me. Do I have an 11-second third gen? No, but I'm as close as you can get. My best is a 12.00 @ 117.62 mph. Oh, and I should mention additional two facts. My car has all the original emissions equipment, is daily driven AND it's a 305.

If that's not good enough, all you have to do is look at the Electronics Board moderator, Tim Burgess' 92 Z. He's running high 11's. Tim's car has also retained all emissions equipment and is driven daily. Oh, it's also a 305!!

I truly believe we own the two quickest daily driven 305's in all this great land. Coincidentally, we both live in Tucson, Arizona. Wanna come down and visit sometime?

"I won't be surprised when you have Magnum TPI on the cover with "11 Seconds" splashed on it."


That ought to sell some magazines for sure--if it happens. I knew I'd get you thinking like an editor!


An 11-second 305 is quite an accomplishment. Don't keep it a secret, let's see this thing. Here's the link to the reader's ride section: http://www.thirdgen.org/rides/index.tgo?action=add

Oh, kinda of PS to my last post.

I know you have caught some hell on this board, but there really are some very nice 3rd gens here running good numbers. The members rides section does not include every member of this board. I have been on this board for over 4 years (since before we had this "new style" bulletin board) and I just added my car to the rides section a few weeks ago.

Guys like myself, TRAXION, Mike Davis, and David91RS/Z28 are running VERY streetable/daily drivers into the low 12's/high 11's N/A. Also, GoFasterFirebird has a nice car that could be daily driven and is building a 406 that should run well into the 11's N/A. Guido is building a heck of a turbo engine and Monty has a 1200 HP beast. Willie's post above mentions himself and another member running good times on supercharged 305's. Just some guys to keep an eye on for future reference.

I am extremely familiar with Guido's car and its progress, primarily because he's made the effort to tell me about it. It's that kind of effort that will reward him with a color feature or possibly even a cover on GMHTP.

I suggest those with fast cars who haven't listed their cars on the reader's rides section do so. That's where a lurking editor might look for potential features or advice. Until clairvoyancy pills are offered over the counter, I can only go to the public watering holes.

Chevy High Performance Oct. 2001 issue:
87 350tpi camaro 12.384 @ 111.06mph
Vette L98 heads
ZZ9 camshaft 1.6 roller rockers
Big mouth manifold, 52 mm throttle body, LTRs, ported plenum
24 lb injectors, Cody Motorsports PROM
Emissions Legal headers, Random Tech. Cat
TCI 700r4 trans.
3.42 gear
Random tech. suspension mods

No...not 11s. But gee whiz...L98 heads.

The following timeslips come from the www.sethirdgen.org
Smog legal? I don't know. But emissions legal is a bull **** point, and really is not the issue. It's more of an excuse. The only difference b/w Emissions compliant and Nonemissions compliant is the damn equipment taken off or put back on.

Jamie Bassett
60ft: 1.622
1/8: 7.34 MPH: 93.5
1/4: 11.60 MPH: 114.56
Tracey Scott
60ft: 1.59
1/8: 7.19 MPH: 98.5
1/4: 11.23 MPH: 121
Lee Cragar
60ft: 1.665
1/8: 7.311 MPH: 94.50
1/4: 11.483 MPH: 117.23

I am disappointed with Magnum TPI.
I look forward to Steve Baur's articles.

I just received my Jan '03 issue in the mail today. I read the article on Magnum TPI and the install of the Gen VII DFI. I appreciate the info, John. Being from the strictest smog state in the nation, that info you provided is really helpful. I truly like the idea of a stealth DFI controller managing the engine while the stock ECM manages the emissions and SES functions. Can't get much slicker than that IMHO.

I also am not interested in building a clock to be able to know what time it is. I'll just buy a watch. Hence I, and I'm sure lots of others are not interested in spending preciously short free time not only learning to do our own PROMS, but experimenting with several trying to get the right combo. I truly like gadgets and gizmos. And when a new high tech product comes out it interests me a lot! That's why I fully enjoyed the article on your Gen VII DFI set-up.

How's that engine in the mid-range? Corner carving is where it's at. I'd like to know how your Formula is on the twisties with the new found power. 11 seconds of racing is OK, but 30 minutes is much better as you know.

Tom

Building a project car with all its emission gear in place and operating may seem irrelevant to some--in fact I'd agree that it's irrelevant to most--might sound like a minor issue to you, but it's not to us.

Being so much in the public eye, we have a responsibility to our readers and the environment, not to mention we'd like to stay on the right side of the law. We've made our goals clear from the outset--that we would do this to the letter of the law, and when there is no specific guideline, to the spirit of the law.

If the position you take is that smog equipment is irrelevant to our results and we should be quicker, how come nobody can seem to run quick with it all still on and running?

I'll tell you why. Catalytic converters and shorty headers are restrictive and cost horsepower. That's a verifiable fact. In fact, the higher the power of the engine, the greater the cost in horsepower. Smog pumps and associated plumbing impose a weight penalty and parasitic drag, not to mention that it makes working on the car difficult. The fact that we choose to work under these restrictions acknowledges the need for a prescedent--a project car that shows definitively that these obstacles can be overcome with prudent component selection.

These issues are difficult to sort out simply because they involve engineering, economics and ethics. Don't get me wrong, I can't blame folks for wanting to head straight for the exit when it comes to emissions compliance. At some point, even old school books like Chevy High will have to deal with this, but GMHTP has to take the lead in the high-tech front.

The 1987 camaro featured in Chevy Hi was a MAF, smog legal, 350 cubic inch engine with a 52mm throttle body and L98 heads. Not a 396 with a pizza box, AFRs, and a "1000cfm" throttle body.

Emissions compliant is not the issue. Not using common sense is. A lot of people are looking to the Magnum articles for guidance, knowledge, and information. I don't think that objective has been properly met. But maybe other objectives take precedence.

I don't know enough about this '87 to respond competently about it, but on the surface it sounds unreasonable to expect a street-legal car with that equipment to run that ET. Did you say this was their project car? I know they had a third-gen but I didn't think it was running that well. At any rate, it ain't on their website.