Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
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I agree with that, ctandc. If an as-cast port on a ProAction head flows close to the already-CNC port of an AFR, that would leave much more porting potential for the ProAction as compared to the AFR. I have not personally seen the port, bowl, or chamber design of either head, though, this is purely theoretical.
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Last edited by formularpm; 06-03-2003 at 01:12 PM.
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My point was to show that several CNC ported sets of heads will give you a much better closer average of flow #'s compared to a bunch of sets of other brand heads that are cast. What I'm saying means that when buying a set of ProAction heads yours may not flow as good as another set of the same head. I think that's why it's worth the extra $$ to go ahead and get a set of AFR's, that way you know that your heads are gonna flow pretty much identical to another set of the same head. So I do believe that because of this AFR's are the best out-of-the-box head for the price. And I don't think that a CNC'd version of the ProActions are going to give some ridiculous flow #'s that blow the CNC'd AFR's away even though they may flow better. The only reason that ProAction heads are so cheap now is because their name is relatively new and their reputation hasn't been established at least not as much as other brands that have been around for decades. If the ProAction line of heads do prove to be the best flowing set of heads and everyone knows that, CNC'd or not, soon enough the price will shoot up and they'll probably be the most expensive head on the market. I just want to see some actual flow #'s of the CNC'd Pro's compared to AFRs on the same bench to make a final judgement. If the PA's prove to flow a lot better I guarentee their price will rise in time, so you guys had better get a set now if you know the true potential of these heads.
But I don't need a flowbench to believe all the machine shop / race / street engine builders I've talked to over the last year or so.....
These are the same guys who will not hold back and tell me what they think of this part or that part, and it comes from them putting engines together day in and day out for years and years.
Alot of those parts they don't like / recommend are high dollar, supposedly high quality parts.
And it's not because they want you to use their parts so much, I know several shops that tell people to figure out what they want, and then price out the parts BEFORE coming to the shop, and that way they know which gets 'em the best bang for the $.
Besides...
Of all the bad experiences I've seen / heard, dealt with in regards to AFR heads, they tend to come off like their heads could not be at fault, and it's assembly error...even though some of the problems they have are fairly common.
In the end, you pay your money and take your chances
YMMV
__________________
Chris
85 IROC - Rebuilt T5,TPI 350, Hedman headers, and few other mods. Possibly for sale, email or PM if interested, LOTS of MODS and EXTRA parts included......
'03 GMC Z71 5.3 POSI..... stock for now
Did anyone point out that the AFR's only come in a 68cc and bigger chamber? Which means you would have to get them milled a lot unless you plan on going to a blower or stroker motor. Something else to add to the cost of AFR's. And the fact that their springs are not top quality. So you would have to swap those out before you bolt them on. An addition expense to already expensive heads.
I agree with AFR and how they sometimes think there $hit doesn't stink. I've called them about problems like getting a socket to fit their headbolts and I've called them about problems with oil leaks around the valve covers. They instantly put the blame on me and acted like it was my fault. Other times when I've called I've had excellent service and good advice. It just depends on who you talk to. The same thing goes for most companies, one that stands out is Comp. I called the cam help # and had this stupid jerk try and answer my q's. He didn't know jack and had never heard of a Superram, he also couldn't even explain the difference between a hyd. and a solid roller. What a joke.
Anyway I purchased my AFR's from Total Engine Airflow in B.G. KY. I got my heads in only 3-4 weeks and they were much cheaper than AFR direct. If anyone decides to purchase them I'd highly recommend this place. They also do awesome port work, although it's not cheap. They might also sale ProAction for SBC, but I'm not sure.
I just got mine in today. By the quality of the castings on these, they might as well be CNC. Not a damn bit of clash on them at all. Sad thing is flowbench guys around here are few to none, and existing ones are really pricey, so I'm just gonna throw them on and enjoy them the way they are.
Originally posted by IROC of 88 I found my flow sheet...
.100 - 67 So these numbers
.200 - 134 Compare slightly above
.300 - 193 The Numbers on the
.400 - 237 Pro Action Website
.500 - 263
.600 - 270
.700 - 278
But also, this is just my set, i am not saying ACTIONS are better than AFR's at all... I just know what i bought, and what i got
Those are very good numbers, not the awesome low flow advertised but still overall good numbers that definately compare with AFR. I was thinking about not getting them because of what I found.
I just got my 220cc 64cc 2.05/1.60 ProTopLine Lighting heads today. They look pretty good, the intake side looks great, the exhaust looks good but has to many casting marks so I am going to smooth them out. What is the difference between the ProAction heads and the Lighting 23 degree heads, are they same or different?
My engine builder highly recomended these heads and ended up talking me into the larger 220cc heads because of I have a larger engine and the cam I am running. I trust these guys. I sat and talked to them for almost an hour last week about all the questions I have about building engines. I asked about high priced rods, bolts, head gaskets, you name it. The thing is they talked me out of alot of stuff I was going to do because they didn't feel I needed it. This was money in their pocket they could have made but told me the truth, and to me that means alot. If anyone of you are into racing, I can't remember what series, I think its NMCA, i think, Kenny Bush and Son's run the machine shop here in town and are some sharp guys. I thought about having my heads flowed after reading this thread, and still might.
I compared AFR's to the Lighting heads and the numbers are close. But for almost half the price, a few cfm means jack to me. Mike Bush said that he feels, out of the box, these heads are comparable to Darts and Brodix and he says the ford heads are even better than SBC.
I payed 789 for the heads assembled, no shipping, w/ springs and undercut valves and I honestly believe that they wouldn't put junk parts in my heads. I thought about going with the aliminum(sp) heads and now I kinda wish I did but its to late and not worth thinking about.
__________________ Wide Open Till You See GOD ...Then Brake
If You Are Upside Down And on Fire....Its To Fast
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Originally posted by Free Bird He doesn't need a big stall w/ a 406. A 3000 would work fine.
I am going to run between a 2800-3000 I imagine, I am going to call dana at probuilt tomorrow and order the convertor. I might go to a 3.73 gear, depends and what dana has to say. with as much tourqe as the engine should make, i don't need a steep gear.
I was going to go with the 200cc heads orginally but the kenny and mike both felt with it being a 400, and running an extreme cam and how much cylinder pressure these cams build that the 220cc heads would be a better choice and if I ever decided to go with a bigger cam the heads wouldn't be a limiting factor, but they have only been building race engines for about 25+ years so I am sure they don't know anything.
Cruzin, if you think they are to big thats fine, but don't be an *** about it and try to back it up with some sort of factual basis and/or information instead of just poppin of **** you hear on horsepower TV. You might be very knowledgable(and I can't spell) person, if you are you need to try not to be such and ***, i.e:I hope your gonna have a 4000+ stall on that car with 220's or it's gonna be really doggy, or What, can't you read? That doesn't show your intelligence, just ingornace.
Never argue with someone who is more ignorant than you are, they will only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
these #'s from an independant test performed by chevy high performance magazine.
keep in mind those are the 190cc AFRs (smaller than the 195) and the iron 220cc pro actions. The AFRs still beat them.
I bought 200cc aluminum lightning pro actions off ebay for my 412 cid cruiser show car - and AFR 195's for my 352 destroked 400 blower street legal drag car.
the pro actions according to the manufacturer require a special set of head studs in large spring applications ($148 online summit and jegs dont stock them) I bought them.
the ports were narrow as a stock felpro gasket and taller than a 1205 so I widened them on the heads to fit my edelbrock lower and stretched my edelbrock lower to fit the tall ports on the pro actions. the material left to seal is small and carae will have to be used.
all said and done in retrospect I wish I would have bought two sets of AFR's but I had to have straight plugs for my SLP 1 3/4" headers to keep from burning boots so whats done is done. the 412 car will roll in the next couple of weeks and the AFR racer will roll by this fall (hopefully)
Oh I forgot to add that when holding the proaction and the AFR head the AFR's feel like they weigh 40% to 50% more. so if you are looking for a weight savings the proactions might be a better choice. I know the majority of the added aluminum is probably in the deck and the AFR's are going on my blown car so that I hope will help my loc wirez stay sealed in the face of oblitherating boost levels I am going for.
something else I forgot to add about my pro toplines was the pushrod slots for about 4 of the pushrods are too tight of a fit. also when you install guide plates it is very visable how out of line the stud holes are with the valve location. it creates a better port Im sure but valvetrain geometry will suffer for it. the sad part is that it is definitely not enough offset to require offset rockers or lifters, but it is an item of interest and possible concern.
B4Ctom1: you have nothing but negative to say about pro action....
I have my pro actions on my car and am very pleased, they flowed better than advertised right out of the box, and my ports appeared to line up right... my pushrods fit perfect, and my guideplates lined up right. so you must have gotten differnet ones than me... either that or you just want to talk ****
Iroc 88 What are you using for Valve covers? I have the polished Proforms and there is no way to get them to fit my 180cc Protoplines. And there is a issue with the alienment or the push rods. I just had a set built this week and the guy at the machine shop put them on a blue printed block and he said they will be some issues with the push rods clearing the heads. Just have to move the guide plates a little he said. AFR has the same problem to from what I have heared. I think It depends on runner size.
Originally posted by IROC of 88 B4Ctom1: you have nothing but negative to say about pro action....
I have my pro actions on my car and am very pleased, they flowed better than advertised right out of the box, and my ports appeared to line up right... my pushrods fit perfect, and my guideplates lined up right. so you must have gotten differnet ones than me... either that or you just want to talk ****
actually dont want to just talk ****. this is the aftermarket product review area. I came here to make a post about my encounter with these heads and saw there was already a pertinent post to make my remarks in. I figured since I had purchased both AFR and proaction heads that this section of the forum would be perfect place for me to make my remarks. I can make a few positive statements about the heads but I expected them to be decent. they are a 60% dissapointment and 40% ok head as far as I have been instaling them.
as stated earlier my ports required extensive port work to make them similar. This is partially my fault as my experience with all the different kinds of cylinder heads in my life results in a situation whereas any port size 200cc and smaller uses a 1205 gasket. Every other manufacturer uses this standard with exception of pro action. their 200cc head uses a 1206. as I stated earlier it is definitely taller than a 1205 but not wider than a stock gasket. another item of concern was that the bolt holes in the end of the heads on my L98 must use a different spacing because one of the holes on the new heads was over half and inch out of alignment enough as to not even be visable through the hole in my passenger side serpentine accesory bracket where the bolt goes through. The good news is that there were still enough bolts to positively hold my bracket on.
this may not be an item of complaint but I will need to special order plugs. pro-toplines site says to use a C57C spark plug as a starting point this is a champion. I dont use champion. the only cross reference I found for this is an Autolite Race Series Spark Plug that is 3.99 each from Jegs or a $2.99 NGK from summit.
here are a few positives. the as cast bowls on these heads were so nice I decided to not hog them when I completed the port matching. The valves springs were almost right on the money, I think they are the K2 set in 1.45 or 1.46 they measured 150 on the seat and 350 open pressure. this is exactly as I needed for my retrofit crane hydraulic roller lifter with the monster cam I got.
Just like flow #'s from a manufacturer, I don't trust my motor on preprinted spring specs, so I check them.
If graded I would give them a A+ for price, an A+ for availaility, an A for included componentry (valves, springs, seals, etc.), an A for combustion chamber finish and design, but an F still as far as bolt on and go goes. One must remember that these heads are marketed towards the flat broke *** circle track racer. circle track guys could care less about the kinds of problems I have encountered. they would just bust out a die grinder, chuck it up in a lathe, or weld a bolt or stud hole closed and redrill and tap it. they dont have EFI or serpentine brackets. I dont have a victor jr intake with which to compare to see how well the ports would have lined up on one of those. I also used the 200cc and the 180cc might not have most of these problems because its port is smaller, so pushrods and such dont have to be cast or machined out of the way of the big runners. this could also mean that the bigger than 200cc sizes could be worse if this is true. this is only speculative as I have not tried those either.
I still have to install the AFR's, if and when I run across similar problems I will have to enter those here in this forum. its not that I am picking on the pro-actions its just that they were the first to get installed so they are the first here to get a review from me.
There must be different castings then, my pro toplines did not have that logo cast into them. They just had PRO in huge letters. I know what you mean about the bolt holes for the accessory brackets not lining up, that was my biggest disappointment with these heads. But I did not have the push rod problem.
__________________ 1992 RS - ZZ4 short block, Pro Topline heads, comp XR276HR cam, Stealth ram with 58mm throttle body, T56, 4.10 gears.
I have the 220cc heads but have not bolted them on the engine yet. I emailed protopline and they recommend a 1206 felpro gasket and a C59C champion plug. As mentioned that crosses to a autolite racing plug. I don't care for either of those plugs but there is no good AC delco cross reference #. I have no idea what problems if any I will have with these heads and if I do have any I will be sure and post them.
I am going to polish the exhaust side ports because of the casting flashes.
So are you guys saying that the factory accessory brackets will NOT bolt up to the Pro Topline heads? If so, what are you guys using for accessory brackets?
Mike
__________________ 1991 Z-28 (Black - Hardtop) 355ci TPI/SLP, Ported Vortec heads, Comp XR276HR-12, Hooker 2210 Longtubes / custom 3" Y-pipe with 3 1/2" mufflex cat-back, Borg Warner T-56, PROM tuned by me!, 3.73's, Hotchkis suspension, custom high-flow lid and ram-air, ALL the bolt-ons, custom Boyd Coddington "1bad91Z" Billet Wheels.
I installed my 200cc Pro Lightnings last night.
I found that the Felpro 1266 intake gasket fit perfect. being the second set, the first didn't seal properly they were some other kind. Anyways. I had the same problem with the tight pushrod clearance, but only with one pushrod sitting up against the wall. I loosend the guide plate and pushed it over some to clear and retightened it down. But with that size of intake runner, the pushrod clearances are very tight.
My accesory bolt holes were right on though. And I only had a giant PRO cast into the head as far as logo goes.
Cruz'N Bruz'R, what did you put these heads on? I had the problem with one of the accessory bolt holes not lining up. Mine went on a 92 camaro RS. Do the accessory brackets differ by year?
__________________ 1992 RS - ZZ4 short block, Pro Topline heads, comp XR276HR cam, Stealth ram with 58mm throttle body, T56, 4.10 gears.
Originally posted by IROC of 88 that picture looks horrible, i would not even put those on my car, those are 220cc? i have 200 cc, and they did not look like that.
They are the 200, I don't see anything in that picture that would lead me to find fault, they dont seem any more rough or pourous than TFS or Edelbrock.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cruz'N Bruz'R I installed my 200cc Pro Lightnings last night.
I found that the Felpro 1266 intake gasket fit perfect. being the second set, the first didn't seal properly they were some other kind. Anyways. I had the same problem with the tight pushrod clearance, but only with one pushrod sitting up against the wall. I loosend the guide plate and pushed it over some to clear and retightened it down. But with that size of intake runner, the pushrod clearances are very tight.
My accesory bolt holes were right on though. And I only had a giant PRO cast into the head as far as logo goes.
if what the others were saying about the logo is true, and your fitment of the gasket is right on, then some of my observations of these heads may be moot. I may have recieved a brand new set of older castings from pro-topline's early days. maybe there were Q-control issues back then.
Quote:
Originally posted by LilJayV10 I have the 220cc heads but have not bolted them on the engine yet. I emailed protopline and they recommend a 1206 felpro gasket and a C59C champion plug. As mentioned that crosses to a autolite racing plug. I don't care for either of those plugs but there is no good AC delco cross reference #. I have no idea what problems if any I will have with these heads and if I do have any I will be sure and post them.
I am going to polish the exhaust side ports because of the casting flashes.
C59C? what combo are you running? because I havent ordered plugs yet and I am curious about the heat range issues....
These heads went on my 383 which is a carbed pre-70's block. My heads only came with 3 accesory holes on each side, while I've seen others talk of 4 or 5. I have had no problems with the fitment.
Any others that experienced the pushrod problem, did you fix it with just shifting the guide plate over a bit as I did?
yes I did do the guide trick but in one case it caused a less than desirable rocker placement on the valve stem. I need to know what spark plugs people are having success with on these heads in N/A applications, others may be running power adders with these heads so chime in please. Tell us what plug and what combo especially compression and or power adder and duty the engine is seeing.
In my case, I got the 200cc iron heads. So I went and picked up spark plugs for a 350 with cast iron heds. Champions. I just throw them in. I'm not really picky that way. It's just the temperature range for cast heads is what I want.
Well, I am no expert plug reader but the ones I am using look good. I am running the Accel short header plugs, the 576S plugs. I could not find the Pro Topline plugs. The ones I have only have like ~40 miles on them though, but that should be enough to get an idea how they are working. Here are some pics, not the greatest but the best I could get. They are in the engine in the sig, 350 NA ~9.5 to 1 compression ratio. Cam specs 224/230 .536/.544 112 @ .05.
Incase you can't see in the pic, the plug ground strap looks brand new, with a very slight tan color to it. The part below the ground strap is clean with again very slight tan color to it. Around the outside of the plug is black to dark brown.
__________________ 1992 RS - ZZ4 short block, Pro Topline heads, comp XR276HR cam, Stealth ram with 58mm throttle body, T56, 4.10 gears.
I won't lie guys, I have no clue what kind of plug to use, so for now, a spark is a spark. Anyways my plugs are so black for richness, it doesn't really matter, but I have an appointment to set my carb up soon, so it should get sorted out.
I am running around 10:1 and they recommended the C59C plug. What I want to know is, do they recomend that plug because of its heat range or because of its electrode length or what?
Cruzin, what are the differences between the 1206 and the 1266 intake gaskets? Thanks.
Well, I don't really know what the difference between the 1206 and the 1266 is LilJay, but you know how most gaskets have the blue silicone ring around the port holes? Well, the 1266 is covered in a complete 1/8" thick of silicone on the whole intake mounting surface, and the ports were plenty big to fit the 200cc intake ports.
hte rubber must be it then I was wondering if there was anything like that around now I know, C59C? thats strange I got the C57C right from the pro-action web site. thats what made me ask. I saw that brodix uses these plug sizes on a few of their heads and the C57C and C59C are both listed but one they say is for gas and the other for alky and I cant remember where I found it, or which was for which :-(
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That is a big picture.. 
