Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!
I talked to my friends that owns the machine shop and there was a small catalog that a local guy has that sells parts out of. What I mentioned above is really all I know about them. Mike said they are better than the iron eagle heads they have. like i said, they are realitively new.
Dart has a new head out now, the platinum line, they are supposed to flow 15-20% more above .400 lift and are supposed to be priced about like the protoplines were. On paper the flow numbers outflow my 220cc heads and are 215cc runners. [/b]
Yeah, these heads have a 5-angle valve job. And yes they are suppose to flow better than the iron eagles.
Back to the topic, is it worth it to sell my toplines and switch to AFR 195s?
Does anyone know if AFR w/L98 angle work ok with SLP 1 3/4s without having to dent them...
Would anyone be interested in my topline 200's if I put them up for sale? They have full comp cam's parts on top, w/ pro magnum 1.6's and hardened rods, about 1700 total into them with about 30 miles on em.
because I dont want to modify my 650 dollar headers, im eventually going to turbo and use different headers and ill be left with a set of dented SLP's noone will want....i made a post in classifieds
Originally posted by 89Kicker_IROC-Z Does anyone know if AFR w/L98 angle work ok with SLP 1 3/4s without having to dent them...
My buddy is running AFR 195s (L98 Angle) with SLP 1 3/4" headers. Fits fine with no "denting or dimpling" required. Uses a "shortened" socket (by grinding off 3/8" off the end) and a racheting box-end to get at the plugs (runs Bosche Platinums as I recall).
depth could be a contributing factor, also heat range as well, but you have to remember heat range is partially dependant on the plug base's contact with the cylinder head. There could be tuning issues as well but they are masked by this problem first.
I have only read a couple pages on this post, but I have tried to read into most of the " problems" and have a little input that could help. -
1st - I'm running the 1266's. I was running the 1206's, but when I went to the .025 head gaskets, my intake hit the block before fully compressing the gaskets, causing the gaskets to slip between the cylinders. I do slightly trim the gaskets.
2nd- Yes, the runners on the Topline aluminums are tall, thats why they make good power(ever heard of 18/14/12 degree heads?...). As for the width differences between intake/head ports, who cares? If your N/A, then the cylinder is pulling air in, so it will simply pull air to the port. If you're boosting, again, the air will push to the port.- Have you ever seen a test on BB chevy Oval port heads? They make MORE power using a square port intake because the wall creates slight swirl, plus the intake can feed the port eaiser w/o restriction.
3rd - With my Hedman LT headers and the angle plug heads, I had to slightly dimple the #1 header tube to clear the #3 plug. I do have to pull the header to remove/install the plug. I'm carbed and I don't consider this a big deal. If you have any clue of you compression, you should be able to guess a fairly accurate heat-range of a plug, and if you have any clue how to tune, you shouldn't foul them out often. If I have to loosen one header every 10-20k to change plugs, then yippy skippy. The dent in the tube is very minimal, not enough for me to care. My 355 turns 7200(has turned 7600 several times) w/o any major(less than 8 degree) variance in egt.
4th - I'm running stock height valves. I'm running daouble roller springs, with a little more seat press. than reccomended for a hyd roller. I have ate 2 sets of stock roller lifter, and have since switched to the Crane's. Again, my seat pressure is high and, since I'm running a double spring, my open pressure is quiet high, but I need more spring to handle the rpm.
5th - as for power, my car weighs 4161 w/ me and 1/2 tank fuel. It runs high 11's all motor w/ a 1.66-1.70 60ft. It has run a best of 11.72@128 with a 1.66 60'. I have yet to spray it. It's a cast-cranked 355. I have just under $1000 in the heads.
If the AFR's will make me faster, then let's see it...
also, Topline did go bankrupt. This was a management issue, not a product issue. Comp Cams and Racing Head Service(RHS) have bought out the company. The heads are now sold under RHS. They are still cast in the same plant by the same people, because Comp says the guy that oversees/designed Toplines casting process is unbeatable. I can vouch for 5 sets of Toplines that were 100% bolt-on, beautifully cast. I bought mine bare, CNC chambers, bought the valves, springs/ret/locks that I wanted and had my head guy do the set-up/assembly. Other than his valve/seat job my heads are untouched...
- note, my psots are not meant to be derogatory towards ANYONE. "just my "
I went through so much crap with these things, completely ruining one of my summers.
I ran topline 200's because I didnt want to wait for the AFR 195's, and lucky for me my spark plugs smacked into my slps, So i ran shorty plugs...but the reach on the shorties was so horrible that they never went into the chamber and were fireing in the threaded areas.
Car ran like crap the entire summer, ripped off the toplines and sold em so a friend who was running hooker headers and didnt have any issues could use them.
I cant run longtubes since my car is lowered, and I didnt want to stick 1 5/8 headers on a 400hp motor, so I just ordered the AFRs and kept my slps.
It took AFR like 4 months before I even got my heads, and it was already in mid summer of 05.
after tuning and tweaking the car on the weekends all july by the time the car was tuned and everything I was packing to leave for college again and sticking my car in the garage.
In the end everythings cool now but those protoplines were such a pain...from pushrods scraping with 1.6 rockers, to none of my damn pullies bolting onto the heads (WOW), to my headers not fitting with full size plugs in....sheesh.
I can honestly say those protopline heads which were recommended to me @ iroczone by 3 people, were the worst experience of my mods ive done since 2001.
89Kicker_IROC-Z - I'm suprised you had that many problems w/ them. My car is lowered. In fact, it's on the ground, and i'm running LT's w/o any issues(speedbumps included). - As for 400hp on 1-5/8, whats the issue here? I'm making somewhere's around 500, and I'm on 1-5/8 headmans. The car slowed down w/ 1-3/4, which could be my combination but still... - I know the plugs can be an issue, but I guess that all depends on your headers. - Question for you, where did you get your Topplines from? some of the dealers for Topline were selling the, shall I say "less than desirable" factory blemish heads.
The only problems I had, which I might have mentioned in my previous posts was the rocker arm alignment, which I think I am going to get a set of adjustable guideplates, only one or two rockers are bad. The holes for the head bolts are not make for a 5/8 head bolt. I had to ground down socket for it to fit. I talked to the guy at my machine shop and he said to use an aftermarket bolt with a smaller head. Besides that, I haven't had any problem.
Originally posted by 89Kicker_IROC-Z I cant run longtubes since my car is lowered, and I didnt want to stick 1 5/8 headers on a 400hp motor, so I just ordered the AFRs and kept my slps.
Originally posted by Shagwell 89Kicker_IROC-Z - I'm suprised you had that many problems w/ them. My car is lowered. In fact, it's on the ground, and i'm running LT's w/o any issues(speedbumps included). - As for 400hp on 1-5/8, whats the issue here? I'm making somewhere's around 500, and I'm on 1-5/8 headmans. The car slowed down w/ 1-3/4, which could be my combination but still... - I know the plugs can be an issue, but I guess that all depends on your headers. - Question for you, where did you get your Topplines from? some of the dealers for Topline were selling the, shall I say "less than desirable" factory blemish heads.
I ordered my toplines from "fastengineparts.com" to answer your ? for me.
As for being lowered to the ground with longtubes I guess id have to see it to believe it...I have the eibach sportlines on my car and putting longtubes on there I know would scrape in my situation.
As for the headers I didnt feel like selling my $700 ceramic coated Slps for some cheapos.
I wont know if im gaining or losing hp with the 1 3/4's since ive never dynoed my engine with 1 5/8s to begin with so Ill just have to cross my fingers on that one.
I doubt if you're loosing any power, just different combinations of engine/car set-up make for differences in exhaust. - as for the height, I'm on a sport kit...never even hit a speed bump. Hooker's would hit though. They hang lower than the headmans'. The bottom of my collector/primaries is level w/ the bottom of my factory front subframe, so they can't hit w/o the frame hitting...I'll get a pic in the next few days if you need...
Well, it sucks that some people have had so many problems.
i had to fight with my pro 200's too. the guideplates for one. i had to open the rocker stud holes in them up a bit so I could adjust them left and right fro the pushrods. But this type of DYI adjustment is something that gets done on most aftermarket head of any value. Some people pay "engine places" to do this, I chose to do it in my garage. It's hard to find something that bolts on any application and gives all the power your looking for. the accesory bolt holes is a big letdown though. I'm glad I didn't have that problem. After finally getting my Pro on my 383, I got to rip into some BBC and big mopars so i know the power is there. I had to wait 8 months for my heads. they cam from N. Zealand, to calif, to my door here in Canada for around $1200Can, fully assembled. I haven't touched them, and they've ran great. some people have had their problems, but I've heard of AFR's valvetrain failures as well. Which is better? I think there pretty close, heck one use to distribute the other here in NAmer., I just can't wait to find an AFR headed car around here to test em out on. And I have the dented header problem as well. i'm running Hedman LT with 3" true over the rear duals.
I know these heads are trouble for some people but I finally see that they are getting their recognition. I have seen lots of past posts of people putting them down saying how they flow like crap and what not and how AFR are the be all end all in heads. I dont understand what people had to gain by putting these heads down when they are clearly contenders for affordable heads that flow great.
finally, we have a winner! that's what I've been trying to say. The biggest problem w/ them has been that several companies selling them have been selling the "factory blemish" heads. Which would be fine, if they actually told you that/sold them at the discount they're supposed to...
1) you get what you pay for. Anyone who thinks the Pro-toplines are going to be equal to AFRs in all aspects are not being realistic. A good value, all things considered, but so are Iron Vortec heads from GM...
2) you don't race flow benches. Anybody can make a sewer pipe flow a lot of air. The trick is to make a smaller port efficient, and to make the combustion chamber efficient as well. In these areas, AFR is superior, but is the difference in price worth it to you?
3) at the SEMA show, I spoke with Rick at AFR, and they have completely redesigned the SBC castings. They would not have done this unless they knew about areas that they needed to improve. Last I knew, Pro-Topline was bankrupt.
Originally posted by TA 1) you get what you pay for. Anyone who thinks the Pro-toplines are going to be equal to AFRs in all aspects are not being realistic. A good value, all things considered, but so are Iron Vortec heads from GM...
2) you don't race flow benches. Anybody can make a sewer pipe flow a lot of air. The trick is to make a smaller port efficient, and to make the combustion chamber efficient as well. In these areas, AFR is superior, but is the difference in price worth it to you?
3) at the SEMA show, I spoke with Rick at AFR, and they have completely redesigned the SBC castings. They would not have done this unless they knew about areas that they needed to improve. Last I knew, Pro-Topline was bankrupt.
another 2cents heard from...
1)How can you compare an as cast head to a fully ported cnced head. Most of this thread is showing an as cast head, not a fully ported cnced version. Show that they are capable of better performance if done so.
2)Yes but their is proof of Pro-topline heads doing very well at the track.
3) Pro topline castings are still being cast at the exact same foundry just under a new name bought by Comp Cams under the RHS name. I can name a dozen distributors that still sell the original castings.
I own AFR's and Pro Action Aluminums. Just holding one then the other you can see the huge difference. The weight for one has the AFR heavier, a credit to thier thick decks. The finish work on the AFR's not even including the CNC is just much better. I put the Pro Actions on my mild large 412, and the AFR's are going on my very well built destroked 400 (352 cid).
my trucks vortecs are heavier than my pro aluminums, so I suppose they're better? - not to burst anyones bubble, but any one in the 4161 lbs range w/ running in the 11's with all-motor AFR headed 355ci? I'm sure someone is, as the AFR's are great heads, but I don't see that they make any more power than the Toplines(RHS). As I have said, I'm running 11's(best of 11.72) on as-cast runners, CNC chambers 200cc Topline aluminums. I paid just under $1000 for my heads, total(bought bare heads, then valves/springs/ret/locks)
This post is 4 pages, could go on forever. My point is are the AFR's worth the money, when I'm making the same power as they do for a lot less? I don't think so. YES, I think they're a great head, but why pay more for a product that isn't going to make me any faster???
Originally posted by Shagwell my trucks vortecs are heavier than my pro aluminums, so I suppose they're better?
are you trying to compare the "apple" iron factory heads to the, "oranges" aftermarket aluminum heads?
Im sure you better repost everything you just typed since you lost the readers half way through the first question.
As to your rare account of your performance with these heads. Having credibility to make such claims has more to do with everything you say than with just the account of the 11's themselves.
EDIT #1: sorry just realized this was with nitrous, so ok no credibility is required anyways.
EDIT #2: I would like to add to your credit that, in your application (after looking at your cam), you are likely running these heads to alot higher RPM than would be ideal with the AFR's. Can one go faster with the AFRs? likely yes, with some careful planning and at a lower RPM to boot. But... If you are building a high RPM engine, the sewer pipe like dimensional weaknesses of the Pro-aluminums "all flow no motion except at high RPMs" makes it very ideal in your application.
Looking at the flow charts of AFRs versus the Pro-aluminums you can see a distinct disadvantage of the pro-aluminums at high lift which generally can translate into poor flow at high RPM numbers.
I would say if a person wants to build a circletrack motor to put into their bird and then spray it with a little juice at the dragstrip maybe the pro-actions are more ideal for the money.
If you want a motor that doesnt need to "piss-wind-up" to make the same power, or trade for some mid RPM torque, then the AFR is your ideal head.
I've never sprayed the car. - I ran 11.72 all motor. I had the plate on, but never hooked the thing up. -
- As for a lower rpm motr, why? If set-up right(not just motor, the whole car), a higher revving motor is easier on drive-line than a lower revving motor. The only thing it's harder on is valve springs. - Yes, I turn around 7200 in low gear. Most people seem to consider this high, I don't, but I'm around blown big-blocks that turn 10k.
- Why would the dimensions of the Pro heads be a weakness? It's been long known that 18, 14, and 12 degree heads make more power than stock 23. - So making the port taller, while still flowing the same cfm, is standing the port up more square w/ the bore, just like the fore mention 18/14/12's do.
- Also, up until the broke trans, this was a daily driver. W/ a 750 vac secondary carb(dialed right ) I got 20 mpg highway, and between 15-17 in town as long as I drove it decent. - So why would I want more mid-range torque? What could it do for me? I wouldn't be any faster, and I wouldn't see any better gas mileage, so why?
- as for the apples and organes, I was just saying that because the AFR's are heavier, doesn't mean they're better...
You purchased these heads so you can definately help me. I have a ZZ4 with a RPM manifold and a .529 lift hydraulic roller cam. The aluminum L98 heads that I have are some of the worst aluminum heads made (my opinion). I need some new heads on a car that will be a "weekend warrior street car". I have a $1000 max budget for aluminum heads and I can't use any head with a combustion chamber over 64cc. And, the head has to come with valve springs that have 120#-130# seat and 320#-330# open pressure that handle .529 or more lift from a hydr. roller cam. This limits me to two heads. The Edelbrock RPM and the ProActions. Texasperformanceproducts.com sells 180cc / 64cc Aluminum ProAction heads complete with a valve spring upgrade for bigger hydraulic roller cams for $830 plus $50 shipping. So after tax lets say $900 total to my door. This is close to the same price as Edelbrock RPMS that would match my RPM manifold perfectly and according to Westech (who flowed both of these heads) the RPMs out flowed the ProActions up to .500 lift (my cam is .529 lift so obviously the much higher flow numbers of the ProActions at .550/.600 is useless to me). Do you think that the Edelbrocks would be a better choice due to all of the problems that you have had with the Pro Actions? Just thought I'd get some opinions here... Anyone?
I`d say rpm. if you dont need the extra flow on top the rpm head will give you a more solid motor with better trothle response. also the rpm i´s truly a bult in and probebly wont need any mods (exept i´d use longer head bolts and a steel washer.). the other thing is that i really havent been hearing anything bad aboute the rpms as aposed to the pro actions that´s had a mixed rewiew, specialy about fitting intake and stuff. personaly i´m going with dart iron eagle platinum 200cc for my 377 destroker but thats gonna be hi reving so.... hope this helped you in some way. Aron
the other thing is that i really havent been hearing anything bad aboute the rpms as aposed to the pro actions that´s had a mixed rewiew, specialy about fitting intake and stuff.
Remember most of the issues people had with the pro-topline heads were more related to the old castings this is long past. I believe RHS has taken them over and the issues have been resolved. So if you get RHS heads then you shouldnt have any problems. I have had very good luck with Comp Cams so I know they would be willing to work with you if you had any problems. Their are still the old castings floating around on ebay under new names so those would be the ones to watch out for with issues.
Unfortunately, texasperformanceproducts said that these their ProActions were made before RHS/Comp took over. So that seals the deal for me. RPMS it is!
Well for the most part the iron proaction heads i dont think had any issues. It was the aluminum heads that had the odd intake port shapes. The 180 proaction heads from what i can tell didnt have any machine or fitment issues.
for those who are interested, I am seeling my protopline heads. I found out last night the angle plugs will not work with SLP headers. It was my fault i didn't check but when I bought the heads I had long tubes on the car and it wasn't an issue. Now that I want to go with single exhaust and lower the car I can't use these heads. They have less than 4000 miles on them, they just had a valve job done to them and where flowed. let me know if anyone is intersted. I am going to have to go with a set of straight plug or L98 angle.
220cc runner, 64cc chamber, 2.05/1.60, springs good to .600 lift, dual springs. angle plug. I will throw in a set of adjustable guide plates.
LilJayV10 - What long tubes were you running? I'm on sport line springs, and my hooker's have plenty of clearance. They barely hang below the front "frame rail". My heads are angle plug also. You do have to loosen the driver's header to change #3 plug though...
Originally posted by Shagwell LilJayV10 - What long tubes were you running? I'm on sport line springs, and my hooker's have plenty of clearance. They barely hang below the front "frame rail". My heads are angle plug also. You do have to loosen the driver's header to change #3 plug though...
I was running hooker 1 3/4 long tubes, and bought the angle plugs orginally to help with spark plug clearance, which it did.
Honestly if someone made my a decent offer on the whole engine I would sell it. I have said that before and I am getting fed up with it. there's a really nice 2000 trans am I looked at today.
...oopps on my part. I was at work on lunch break, in a hurry and miss thought/typed. I have the headman's, not the hookers. Yeah, the hookers' hang lower than the headmans, which is why I didn't run them. My combo also has a better power curve w/ the 1-5/8. - what are you fighting thats soo bad? - I love chewing up LS1's...
TA-what did you hear about the redesigned SBC AFR's at SEMA?
I thought I read somewhere that AFR was coming out with a newer version of their SBC head in the coming months...is this what you heard too? Thanks
there's been a couple posting about the "new" afr heads that have the scallops in the sides, supposedly afr's way to lighten them up bit. - If used on an aftermarket block, these new heads won't cover/seal the water jacket holes in the block.
I saw these advertised in the back of a hot rod magazine. I went to their website and their flow numbers look amazing. I don't know if they are done with a pipe or not, but they have better numbers than my protoplines, with a smaller intake runner. The link is below, and so are the flow numbers. They are supposed to be making aluminum heads soon. I am going to have to buy heads now since I have SLP's and need straight plugs.
I emailed them last night and got a really good email back this afternoon, I have attached it below.
Hi Jason,
Thanks for you interest in our head program. Our cylinder heads are manufactured in Australia at our foundry Toowoomba Metal Technologies (www.tmettec.com). They have been in business for over 120 years and are hands down the best cast iron foundry operating today. We have a long standing relationship with Ron Shaver (http://www.shaverengines.com/companyinformation.html) Ron is the guy that has helped develop this generation of cast iron cylinder heads. He was also active in some of the R&D with the old Pro guys. Our 220 head in its current form has outperformed both the similar Pro Topline 220 and the current Dart Platinum version. We are committed to only publishing FACTUAL flow numbers. All of our number are taken right off the actual flow sheet from Ron’s SF1020 bench (which both he and Edelbrock both consider a “slow” bench) As previous Pro Topline customers we always felt the Pro (now RHS) inflated the flow numbers by 10-20 cfm up and down the range. We also have published a dyno comparison using a very neutral GM ZZ4 crate engine. This comparison is posted on our site (www.eqcylinderheads.com)
He gave me some phone numbers to talk to a couple of their race guys and head recomendation.
He also said in the rest of the email that they will hopefully start selling the aluminum heads in May. I responded back and said I would be interested in the aluminums, however I have heard a lot of bad things about them with the protopline castings.
Hopefully if they are making the aluminum heads again they will fix the problems with them.
I have just read the whole six pages from start to finish, and before I commit to the expense of AFR, or go buy Pro Topline I just want to make sure I have this all correct.
This is not to start another AFR vs Topline debate, just want to some up what has been said so far.
There have been 2 versions of Pro heads during this debate.
1. Pro Action
2. Pro Topline
Cast iron Pro (Topline) Lightening / Pro Action have not had any problems.
Alloy Pro Action heads have had troubles with:
1. Gaskets not fitting due to inlet ports being a strange size
2. Pushrod Guides not lining up.
3. Accessory bolt holes in the front not lining up with the bracket.
Alloy Pro Lightening heads only have trouble with the inlet gaskets.
Does this sound like a far some up.
Reason I need to know is I'm currently living in Canada for 9mths and before I head back to Austrailia I was intending on taking back a set of heads.
If I choose to go with the Pro Lightening I can get them in Aust. so I won't need to get them while I'm over here.
They no longer make "Pro Action/Topline", whatever same company. They sold out to RHS. It all comes down to how much money you want to spend. And it may be even cheaper if you bought them in Australia if you decided on the Pro heads.
I myself have the iroc Lightning heads, and I think they're great. But everybody raves about their AFR's as well. AFR most likely flow better than the same sized Pro head, but that much extra cost, for about 10hp when all is said and done wasn't worth it to me. Plus, the other thing I didn't like was the garbage that AFR was installing in their assembled heads. there is quite a few posts on this site about people's AFR's falling to pieces on them, with barely any runtime. So i took it as "castings good, components crap"
Although people have had their problems with the aluminum lightnings as well with casting problems, some accesory bolts in the wrong places.
Basically, both manufacturers have had their problems. Hopefully their fixing them. it comes down to how much you want to spend. And it's up to you.
maybe you want to try a set of these new EQ heads, and be some of the first ones to do that?
I'm just starting to look into the EQ Heads,the irony at the moment is my car is garaged at my parents place about 30mins from the production foundy and I can't find a supplier in Aust. Only suppliers I can find are in the US or Can.
__________________ 88 GTA
Calgary Canada for 2006
Home is Sydney Australia www.camaro-firebird.org
I have just read the whole six pages from start to finish, and before I commit to the expense of AFR, or go buy Pro Topline I just want to make sure I have this all correct.
This is not to start another AFR vs Topline debate, just want to some up what has been said so far.
There have been 2 versions of Pro heads during this debate.
1. Pro Action
2. Pro Topline
Cast iron Pro (Topline) Lightening / Pro Action have not had any problems.
Alloy Pro Action heads have had troubles with:
1. Gaskets not fitting due to inlet ports being a strange size
2. Pushrod Guides not lining up.
3. Accessory bolt holes in the front not lining up with the bracket.
Alloy Pro Lightening heads only have trouble with the inlet gaskets.
Does this sound like a far some up.
Reason I need to know is I'm currently living in Canada for 9mths and before I head back to Austrailia I was intending on taking back a set of heads.
If I choose to go with the Pro Lightening I can get them in Aust. so I won't need to get them while I'm over here.
pro action = pro lightening. Same thing. The company was Topline, their performance heads were called Pro Action. The lightening series was the aluminum version, thunder series was iron. - Anyhow, it's RHS(racing head service) now, with Comp cams as the parent company.
"
finally, we have a winner! that's what I've been trying to say. The biggest problem w/ them has been that several companies selling them have been selling the "factory blemish" heads. Which would be fine, if they actually told you that/sold them at the discount they're supposed to... 
Anyone? 
