I am considering some trickflow 23 deg heads vs the AFR's. I have yet to see any flow numbers on the trickflow 23deg heads. I had a bad experience with the trickflows on my corvette. I purchased a set of G2 twisted wedge heads and after my motor went bad, the valve guides were not bronze! and there was a lot of slop in the valve guides! I had only 7K miles on the motor and I am a bit weary of the trick flow product after my experience with trick flow. I am more apt to spend a little more cash for a better product such as the AFR's, However, I have heard nothing but good things on the thirdgen board about the trickflow 23deg heads. What have been your experiences with the trickflow 23's and where can i see some flow becnch numbers on these heads?

Though I can't find the numbers right now. The AFR's are considered to be the best flowing head for their port size.

AFR.

------------------
89 RS

STILL Looking For:
An 87 IROC-Z28 350 TPI

AFR

hey if you've got the cash go AFR

------------------
'86 IROC 5-speed
305 LG4
edelbrock performer rpm intake
edelbrock 600 cfm carb
msd pro billet hei distributer
'95 3.23 rearend
hotchkis rear suspension
PST front polygraphite suspension

I know AFR's flow the best! I've heard that the trickflow 23deg work considerably well. I would like to see some flow numbers for the trickflows and I question the trickflow's workmanship since my last exp. After paying a grand on a set of heads that were supposed to be G2's and have bronze guides, yet they did not have bronze guides and there was a lot of slop in the guides themselves, i hesitate spending a little over 1000 for another set! I can get the afr's for a little over 1100. What experiences have you guys had with the trickflow 23deg? I am strongly considering the tirckflows since i am trying to save cash for a reliable motor ie..eagle rods, forged pistons...etc

Thanks for the replys

Well, I've only got about 5000miles on my trick flow 23deg. heads but have not had any problems. I know the g2's had a reputation for guide problems due to the diff. angle.



------------------
86 406

Does anyone know what kind of flow numbers the trickflow 23deg. put out???

Ive seen flow figures around 250 cfm on the intake side at 500-550 lift. I have the numbers somewhere I will see if i can find them. AFRs flow around 260 cfm on the intake side. A bowl port would put them equal to the AFRs I beleive the AFRs are cnc ported anyway? If the Trick flows had the same porting out of the box.

Only time will tell how well the trickflows work. I have a set of 23* Trickflows on my 406 IM installing it now. So i cant say how well they perform. I think they are a good power per dollar head. I doubt AFRs are worth the price difference. Put the money you save into the trickflows and they will blow the AFRs away IMO.

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Black 90 IROC, L98, A4, 323 gear. SuperRamed 406 in the works!

Mike,

I can get a set of AFR's for around 1200bucks and the trickflow cnc ported heads cost 1145. I Thought the trickflows were under 1000 and they are if you want the non cnc ported heads. I know that the afr's are by far the best on the exhaust side. The Trickflow twisted wedge heads I had on my vett worked awsome, it was the workmanship of the heads that tends to steer me away from purchasing the trickflows again. Since they did perform well, i am still considering them. If I do go with the cnc ported heads I definatley will go with the AFR's since the trickflow price is smilar to the AFR's. But, I am hoping to hear good things about the trickflow 23deg non cnc ported heads and would really appriciate some flow bench numbers from the trickflow 23deg's Thanks for the reply!

there was a post awhile back that came to the conclusion that the CNC CC didn't do much for performance because any gains seen by it were canceled out by the fact the CC was 3 CC bigger (64-67). Unless it was an all out race engine CNC wasn't really nessacery.

Thanks for that info!!!! Valuable info! Now I just need some flow numbers for the trickflow 23deg. and some responces of those of you who have the trickflow's. Like I said, i am a bit weary of trickflow since my last exp. but I want to hear from you guyz..straigt from the horses mouth. I know that at .400inch lift the AFR's flow about 188cfm and they pretty much dominated however, i have heard that the 23deg flowed considerably close? Anyone got any numbers or a link that would compare or know of a link that would show these numbers? The twisted wedge were very close in CHP but did not show the 23deg's? I went to trickflow's website and they did not have any flow numbers

TFS 23 deg.
@28inH2O 2.02 Int 1.6 Ex.
--.050--- 33.2--- 24.3
--.100--- 61.0--- 49.8
--.150--- 101.8--- 74.7
--.200--- 135.3--- 101.9
--.300--- 185.0--- 134.9
--.400--- 223.8--- 169.8
--.500--- 245.0--- 187.6
--.550--- 246.8--- 192.3

[This message has been edited by AJ_92RS (edited August 28, 2001).]

AFR 190
@28inH2O 2.02 Int 1.6 Ex.
--.050--- 32.2--- 26.3
--.100--- 65.8--- 57.0
--.150--- 103.4--- 85.5
--.200--- 137.6--- 116.9
--.300--- 190.9--- 165.4
--.400--- 230.9--- 190.8
--.500--- 245.7--- 201.9
--.550--- 245.7--- 203.5

Thanks aj!!!!! Where did you find those numbers?

I have Desktop Dyno and get free updates and program info. These numbers are from CHP, I believe. I think that's were they got them. I kinda remember seeing them in CHP. I'm a subsciber.

AJ

BTW, I got the G2 and AFR 210 flow #s if you want 'em. I can get the new AFR 180 #s also. They were just published in CHP a few months ago.

Also, you're welcome.

[This message has been edited by AJ_92RS (edited August 28, 2001).]

have you considered Canfield? they have very competitive flow numbers compared to the AFR(195's), and are 400 bucks less(assembled too). Remember, if peak flow on a certain head is at high lift numbers.. > or =.5, then it wont perform as well as your expecting.. the valve spends the majority of its time around .2-.4".. so compare the flow numbers as a set, dont just look at the highest number and decide from there.. i think on AFR's site the canfield's were the only ones to flow more than the 195's period, and it occured at like .2 or .3".. for that much less money, you can easily make up the power difference, if any. I dont have personal experience with either of them, or any aftermarket head for that matter but, some poeple i've talked to who have built engines w/both heads say they got very similar power numbers.

------------------
83 Z28--not a pretty site, sold thank goodness

74 Z28-- 383/400, green on black. pretty clean. FOR SALE!!!

[This message has been edited by mtx28 (edited August 28, 2001).]

Do they make canfields for the tpi intake? I need to keep my tpi intake on since i have a blower made for the tpi intake. I would be interested in the canfields if they make some for the tpi motors.

TF vs AFR = get the AFR

And yes canfield make some great heads for TPI cars ( se sign.) No provision for EGR and Temp.sensor but the temp sensor is easy to move....

------------------
GTA -89:383, 4-bolt,Free flow muffler,dual 3" HF cats, Edelbrock headers, Canfield heads, 1.52 RR 7/16, ZZ-9 cam, Big Mouth, AS&M LTR, !plenum, 52 TB, MSD 6AL, TPIS level V prom, Superior shift-kit and all the minor mods,looking for a SR ...
http://www.itv.se/tacs/members_cars/m279/m279.html (Swedish Trans Am Club)

So where can i get the canfield heads? And how much for a complete set for my tpi l98? And are the canfields better that afr's?

This is not even debatable in my book.

AFR all the way.
I had my 190 heads flowed this past winter at the local speed shop.

AFR 190
@28inH2O 2.02 Int 1.6 Ex.
--.100--- 65.7--- 59.2
--.200--- 124.0--- 116.0
--.300--- 182.4--- 164.3
--.400--- 212.3--- 188.2
--.450--- 249.7--- 194.6
--.500--- 260.1--- 201.0
--.550--- 252.7--- 202.6
--.600--- 254.2--- 205.8

The way I see it, results speak for themselves. Who have you seen making power with the trick flows?
Ive seen plenty of people even on this board putting down super numbers with the 190's.

------------------
-86 IROC
11.31 @ 120.2 mph
-=ICON Motorsports=-

Canfield vs AFR = AFR

www.canfieldheads.com

------------------
GTA -89:383, 4-bolt,Free flow muffler,dual 3" HF cats, Edelbrock headers, Canfield heads, 1.52 RR 7/16, ZZ-9 cam, Big Mouth, AS&M LTR, !plenum, 52 TB, MSD 6AL, TPIS level V prom, Superior shift-kit and all the minor mods,looking for a SR ...
http://www.itv.se/tacs/members_cars/m279/m279.html (Swedish Trans Am Club)

Everything I've heard the AFR's are better.
The prices that I've seen put the AFR's at about $1600, and Trick flows $800-$1000.
If you can get AFRs for just a little more than the Trick Flows it seems to me to be a "no brainer."

$600 isn't 'a little more' than $1000.

And trick flows cost even less than that... Maybe with the CNC option.

Otherwise, buy the trickflows and a dremel and port them to match or outflow the AFR's and have money left over for dinner and a set of SLP headers.

If it's considering the microscopic better flow, get Brodix with 210cc Intake runners.

More Flow doesn't always make more power. Otherwise I'd use 210cc intake runners and that 260@.050" duration cam.

A couple of post up the board he said he could get AFR's for $1100. That is not $600
more than Trick flows.

There's a set of AFRs on eBay right now <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=594951553">http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=594951553</A>. As of this posting they're under $400. Only drawback is they're 72cc chambers...

Well, if you want to run like GMHTP's car "TPI magnum" buy the TFS heads. They even mentioned in their article how the TFS heads hurt their performance(among other things) I would kick myself later if I didn't spend the extra money now to buy the AFRs. To tell you the truth, the two heads shouldn't even be compared.

------------------
1991 Firebird
350 L98 (was a 305 TBI),T-5,Edelbrock TES and cat back,Accel manifold
NOS,subframes,jegster torque arm,MSD Digital 6
AFPR,Lakewood lcas
Hurst linelock,SLP cam (206 212 .480 .486),relocated battery,cold air,Hypertech chip,centerforce df,clutch
poly bushings and mounts
AFR 190s
Harland sharp 1.5 rockers
autopower rollbar

12.33 @ 114.83 juiced uncorrected

13.510 @ 102 non juiced uncorrected

AFR 190's out flow a majority of otheer manufacters larger cc products, not to mention AFR has the thickest deck surface, which is good for blowers,spray and turbos, i had mine milled .066 so i could obtain a 58cc chamber and still have a deck surface thicker than most other hi-perf heads. i dont have any complaints... my old roomate went from 8.40's to 7.50's with a set of AFR 190's and advancing his cam a little (79 Z28, times are 1/8 mile)
go with the AFR you'll be happy, and you'll allready have a set of heads that'll manage whatever you might build in the future.

------------------
87GTA ,10.5:1,4-bolt 355,afr 190's, super ram ,stock poerted base,58mmTB,24 lb FMS inj. ed wright chip, .510/230 (nr) 1&5/8 hooker shorty's, flow master single 3", 2800 ameri-torque non lk-up, 3.73. best to date with stk 48mm tb and lack of traction in 1st gear netted me a 12.9 @110mph /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73,
sitting in the garage : 26-11.5-16 et streets, sphon LCA's &rlb's, SFC's, b&m mega shifter....hope to install before the next century!!!

im all for the trick flow 23 degree heads my friend has a pair on his Cutlass Supreme 355 and that car goes like a stink he hits mid 12's consistently. im not personally against afr's because stats dont lie they are a good flowing head. but on the other hand some people act like jesus himself made them.. the trick flows are good for their buck and flow really well.. i think someone also mentioned canfield heads and those things are just straight up bad @$$..

I gotta answer this one, the trick flow heads do not flow anywheres near the afr's even the 190cc afr heads will outflow the trick flows. I have a set of the 195cc street heads on my motor now, and am making in excess of 460 hp, the heads are great if you can afford the extra heavy price tag of the heads, get them and never worry again.

What about the dart Pro 1's. They are good heads and are at a good price . Check them out at www.sdpc2000.com

You can get them bare and put your own brand valves and springs in them, or get them already assembled. You can get them in 64cc or 72cc. With 200cc, 215cc or 230cc intake ports.

You can also go to there site www.dartheads.com

the afr 190- 195 cc street heads are a great flowing head, with granted a high price. chevy high performance has used the tfs 23 deg. head on afew motors, and for the cash outlay they win, but for higher revving, or all out better breathing the afr's dominate. as for the dart pro 1 head, they bypass the term streetable, 200 cc and up ports? they work great if your running big gear, cam and high stall convertor but these kind of heads are what you are going to build your motor around . i consider the dart pro1 heads or the iron eagle(steel heads) to e great entry level racing heads and have great potential but i wouldnt recommend them for street duty to anyone considering driving the car on a daily basis.

how about this: what times have people made with the AFRs vs the TFS? how about some dyno #s.....thats where the extra money really counts!

well the trick flow 23 degree head actually outflows the AFR 190 head and the 18 degrees run right there with the AFR 220's so really i think its just a matter of preference... so really does your few extra bucks really show??? im not biased to any head as long as they flow good. but there are other good flowing heads out there outsides the almighty AFR's

ill agree with the fact that there are plenty of good flowing heads, besides the afr's hell ill be selling mine soon, but for a street motor, aluminum head, they are great, i would take them before the performer rpm, or the tfs, plus you can get them emissions legal, which when put into perspective slashes the playing field. as for the 220cc head, thats just big, and 18 deg- thats just not even close to economical. so as it stands i say the afr's are a top performer for the street, my second choice for a legal type head, just a gm aluminum head, with some port mods, bigger valves. something you should know about me, i race on the legal, if it cant pass inspection, it should be trailered. i couldnt care less for an 89 iroc that has a 383 carb motor, but if you have an emiisions legal stroker bangin down low 12's let me see some pics, efi is great, why hack it?

I don't think those flow #'s comparing afr to tf was correct according to afr their 190's flow 262 on intake & 194 on exhaust.
check it out for yourself.
http://airflowresearch.com/pages/190sbc_sh.htm

Don't get me wrong I think AFR's make great heads but I just think that people should check out other heads as well. Its all a matter of your budget cuz if I knew I could afford a set of AFR's I'd prolly go out and buy Brodix instead. Its all a matter of budget cuz my dad had a 454 with Ray Frank Pro-Filer heads and that car would $hit and get but who would wanna pay that money to drive on the street... I personally like AFR's but for the price Id rather go Trickflow...

why skimp on heads, its where all power lies, all the mods in the world and if the heads suck, (poof) waste'o'cash. buy good heads.every mod you make later will bring you a smile, cause you didnt skimp.youll be grateful in the long run, and afr heads are all made on a cnc, with tight tolerances, tfs heads are mass produced for summit.

I have owned 3 sets of afrs and own 2 curently. I flow tested my new 190's last month and they flowed like 262cfm right out of the box. I had them cleaned up a little where the cnc machine left rideges and gained another 8-10fcm. I can get the heads for you for 1150.00+sh. Thats cheaper than direct from afr at 1250.00. They are also using new valves in their heads. They are using REV exhaust valves and Manley intaked valves for better sealing and flow. I have never seen a car with tfs head run worth a shi~. Let me know if you want to get the heads and I will tell you where to get them....

Drew

Something to think about......

AFR is fully CNC'd, the TFS is not. The whole idea behind a CNC'd product is for the repeatability and to get it to flo the best it can, right?
Now let me post this:

AFR 190
@28inH2O 2.02 Int 1.6 Ex.
--.050--- 32.2--- 26.3
--.100--- 65.8--- 57.0
--.150--- 103.4--- 85.5
--.200--- 137.6--- 116.9
--.300--- 190.9--- 165.4
--.400--- 230.9--- 190.8
--.500--- 245.7--- 201.9
--.550--- 245.7--- 203.5

And:

TFS 195
@28inH2O 2.02 Int 1.6 Ex.
--.100---64.2---55.9
--.200---138.5---105.2
--.300---197.7---145.5
--.400---237.1---170.7
--.500---256.8---186.3
--.600---258.4---195.9

So as I look at this information, I think to myself, the TFS has a CNC'd chamber but nothing done port-wise. And since a CNC'd head (AFR) should theoretically couldnt/shouldnt be improved then something is a miss. Looking at the numbers above and remembering that the TFS heads havent even been port matched, bowls ported or blended and the TFS head outflo's the AFR (with the exception of the Ex.). Huh.......I'm thinking the money saved at time of purchase between the two, and invest that into a port/blend job and now you would really outflo the AFR's. I agree with Harley83 fully. You will have room to grow with the TFS head and are stuck with the AFR for about the same amount of cash.

The Dart Pro1's are the alloy counterpart to Darts Iron Eagle. I run a set of Iron Eagles on a small block and am quite impressed with the product considering it makes over 600HP on pump.

And to put some money back in my pocket from the gas savings going from 91/92 octane to 87, I have constructed a TFS 195cc motor that at 9.4:1 and 87 octane makes right around 460HP with a cam that is under 0.500 lift.....which makes it very driveable. Think about putting an ego frendly cam say 0.540+ and your now making some real numbers.

Dont get me wrong either, AFR is a good product but with the experience I have gained as of late with the TFS head, its hands down the winner in my book. And to think, Jesel makes shaft rockers for'em too.....

Have some pics: http://www.geocities.com/tholt67/dzprojectII.html

if you feel like putting more money into the heads, get the cnc ported heads, just because a head is cnc machined doesnt mean that there is no room to work, cnc is just a really accurate way to shape ports, making them all equal, hopefully taking away casting flaws, and arent we still talking about bolt ons, bolt on...not buy something take it apart have it reworked and bolt on, out of the box.the original question wasnt which head has more potential for a race head, it wass which is the better head. not who acn do a good port job on my cheap heads...afr heads are a great product, the trick flows are a great head for a new comer who wants aluminum heads and is on a relatively tight budget. c'mon this whole thing is just getting out of hand,a good set of heads shouldnt need to be reworked to flow, and anyone looking to buy trick flow heads in the first place isnt looking to build a race motor..

at trickflow's website, it says the 23 degree heads flow 253 cfm@.500 on intake and 176cfm on exhaust. the numbers are higher for the CNC ones.

Well first of all, the original post was not talking about a 'Race' engine, and if I were building a 'Race' engine I wouldnt use either one of the heads mentioned.

Second the flow numbers are right off of both the respective head manufacturers web sites. And yes, the TFS numbers used were that of the CNC'd chamberd version. So YOUR mis information is your ignorance. Not to mention that I can take the same exect head to three different flow benches and get three different gross flo volumes.....hummmmm, what do you know about the measurement of un-certainty?

Third I am not saying that you CAN NOT improve a CNC'd product. With some time on a bench you can probally squeeze a cfm here and there. But if the TFS heads were CNC profiled like the AFR, they would definatly out flo the AFR's.

And grneyemnst you are correct, a good set of heads shouldnt have to be reworked to flo......that is why the AFR's are CNC'd and the TFS is not, yet they flo similar numbers. Go figure......

I have noticed on this site that people get spun up really easy when some one else points out something thats different from what they have "seen". Well just to let you know there are people on the site with more knowledge and experience than you might understand, so be aware of what you say and think that you know, because you will have your @ss handed to you.

for a street head the afr's rock. ive got them i love them and i chose them over the trick flows. my next motor i am undecided i need a big por high flow head, and hey sellin the afr's will give me a good jump start for cash so.... well see what i come up with next. heres a question, anyone know of a site selling 400 blocks for a reasonable price , maybe ill throw a stroked 400 in the ol' nova for fun. and anyone have any thoughts for the sr totquer 2's im rebuildin my ta's 305 and wanna get some heads?

and for the record. my "resume" consists of three years consistent racing at raceway park englishtown nj, 12 years just "wrenching" , and all of my cars motors combos are picked and assembled by me, and im not pompous or arrogant in my thinking, i am a regular in the pits asking questions looking to learn more, so dont take offense , i just really love debating about cars and possible engine combinations. i mean c'mon nobody knows everything, everyone knows something, and the longer you build and race the more we all realize we know nothing.

i don't think that trick flow heads are as mediocre as everyone says they are. Sure other heads will flow better, but c'mon, they surely are competitors. I have them on my car and they work great for me. Maybe i'm ignorant as to how AFR's would perform on my engine, but i can't imagine my car being much faster than it is now.

Actually the AFR numbers are from this post. My bad for thinking that if someone would post informtion, that it would at-least be somewhat correct. (sorry) :lala:

So I take it you dont port heads? You are just a spectator....? Have you ever done specific port profiles using pressure/thermal anemometers? Do you even know what that is? Or pressure profiling a pressure vessel? Or how about the same profiling with Thermochromatic Liquid Crystal to show the heat transfer characteristics of a pressure vessel? (an intake or exhaust port for those unfamiliar with this term) Ya know its all about pressure and temperature right?

Like I stated before "PAL" (boy youre a real threat to society) If you did know anything about porting that ANYONE could take these same heads to three different flow benches and acquire three sets of data for each one. But it did take them to CNC port this head to flow these numbers....thats all I was trying to say. Which really shows that you do not understand the applied theory of the measurement of uncertainty.... talk about a lower intellect.....you win! :hail:

Dont spend too much time looking up the things I have brought to your attention above. It will take you about another ten years to digest this with your 23 year old mentality.

And since you are just a lazy student:

http://www.trickflow.com/product/hea...r_23degree.htm

Oh yeah look under Flow Bench data.......Einstein.

well i just gotta say this, im 24..good thing you can count whats the matter ? sixth toe throw ya off again. lower intellect hardly. but hey we cant all be you, is this your pride in life ? talking lowly of other people then gee whiz i envy you, this discussion will now end. why? because i will not match witts with an unarmed man. later sukka , grneyemnst:lala: