Gumby

Anyone got anything to add to this jumble of info below. It sounds valid but no one is finding it in the store. --------------------- nailhead_sled Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 133 Molasses Rust Removal Has anybody ever used molasses/water solution to remove rust from blocks etc? I have heard great things about it, and the price can't be beat. I am planning to try this out but I have been told that regular molasses wont work, it requires 'horse feed' or 'sulphated' molasses. Any thoughts? Also where does a city boy find horse feed molasses? __________________ Though I drive through the valley of imports, I shall fear no turbo; For torque art with me. Thy eight pistons and pushrods, they comfort me Phil Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 05-02-2003 08:47 PM -------------------------- Truzi Broke College Student Registered: Feb 2002 Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 531 Alan (BuickAl) has what you want. Check out this thread:Alan's Rust Remover and this earlier one: Rust Removers __________________ Truzi 1970 Buick Skylark Custom Convertible Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 05-02-2003 09:04 PM ---------------------------- BlownNailhead no refunds on bad answers Registered: Apr 2003 Location: Livermore, CA (land of fruits and nuts) Posts: 160 A city boy would find sulphated molasses at a feed store. You may have to run outside town a bit, but I am sure one is reasonably close to you. Here is a little hint, if you can heat the mixture a bit it helps get the reactions going, just like any chemical reaction. __________________ Terry - certified car nut 63 Riviera supercharged 401 38 Chevy 454 37 Chevy truck daily driver 68 GTO all original Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 05-02-2003 09:25 PM --------------------------------------- nailhead_sled Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 133 Thanks Blown, One more question if I may. What is the best mixture ratio? I have been thinking somewhere in the range of 5 parts water to 1 part molasses, but have been told that it will also work at a 10:1 ratio, any thoughts? __________________ Though I drive through the valley of imports, I shall fear no turbo; For torque art with me. Thy eight pistons and pushrods, they comfort me Phil Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 05-03-2003 12:18 AM ---------------------------------------------- Buick_350X Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 803 Bump... I would like to know what ratio too. I did buy a $90 bucket of AL's stuff but after about 75% of the "water" evaporated it was useless and kind of a waste. He did say you can add water as needed so I didn't worry about the evaporation but adding water didn't work for me and another $90 is not in the budget. [Never got my first $90 worth out of it.] Matt Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 09-08-2003 01:46 AM ----------------------------------------------- Buick_350X Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 803 From another post about molasses "And I found this on this website. http://www.lametalsmiths.org/news/page9.htm Question I have a friend who uses molasses to clean rust off old iron items collected from the bush. The rusty iron article is placed in a jar of molasses solution (nine parts water, one part molasses) and left for two weeks. After this time, the article comes out clean and almost shiny. What is happening here? Answer Molasses contains chelating agents. These are made of molecules that are shaped a bit like the claws of a crab--the word chelating comes directly from the Latin word chele, meaning claw. They can envelop metal atoms on the surface of an object, trapping them and removing them. Molasses owes its properties to cyclic hydroxamic acids which are powerful chelators of iron. More of these compounds are found if the molasses is derived from sugar beet rather than cane sugar. The plants from which molasses is made presumably use these chelating agents to help them extract minerals from the soil. Interestingly, there are aerobic microorganisms that use similar cyclic hydroxamic acids to scavenge iron. So plants and microbes appear to use the same chelation strategy to obtain their daily ration of iron. The same process is at work when you clean old coins with Vegemite or cola. The power of chelating agents also explains why the insides of tomato tins need to be lacquered. The citric acid in the tomatoes would dissolve the metal of the container if the lacquer were not present. Household cleaning agents, especially detergents and shampoos, also rely on chelation. These soften water to make it more effective during the cleaning process. Chelation has its uses in medicine, too. EDTA or ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid is used as a chelating agent to control levels of calcium in the body and can reduce the effects of mercury or lead poisoning. Ben Selinger, Department of Chemistry, Australian National University. Ben Selinger is the author of Chemistry in the Marketplace and Why the Watermelon will not Ripen in your Armpit (Allen & Unwin) Looks interesting! " Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 09-08-2003 01:49 AM ---------------------------------------- pglade Senior Member Registered: Feb 2002 Location: austin,tx Posts: 573 ok folks-----we need some follow through on this thread. Has anyone actually called around to a feed supply place to locate this stuff??? I called one here and all they had was a powdered form and they didn't know #$*# about sulphated, etc. Can someone do some checking in their area and see: 1) what form this stuff comes in-liquid/powder/etc 2)Get a product name I'll try that other website and some more web searching. We need to find out where to get this stuff ----if someone will get me some info I'll get the stuff and TRY IT OUT AND POST RESULTS ON THIS BOARD. These ideas are great!!!! We just need to follow through and publish results. I will do that with some help. THnx very much. Patton Glade Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 09-12-2003 09:16 PM ----------------------------------------

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Gumby

I was the one who bought the $90 bucket of evapro-rust and it is some awesome stuff but you know what happened to it. And I did notice a molasses type substance on parts once dried if it had some pooled on it.

Matt


It was worththe $90 if I could of gotten my full moneys worth. Stuff is like someone takes a tiny bead blaster to just the rust. Makes chrome look just awesome with out scrubbing it.

Gumby

A fender I used that stuff on.

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yankeecarman

Here in Australia a guy at the Chevy Car Club gave a demo on the benefits of molassis. He works with resins and glues thru his work. The results were fantastic. Just like someone showed in the pictures. I dont remember the ratio, but I will get in touch with him to find out. The mixture after a couple of weeks was pretty strong he said but then the price of the result and ease of use is well benefited.The molassis came from a feed and seed sort of place and he said the price here was around $25 for 20litres. Will get more info and post. I did view the results and like I said was fantastic.

Gumby

Sweet dude. How about posting atleast your first name?
Makes ting a tad more friendly around here.

And yea I assume I paid about $50 too much for a plastic 5 gallon bucket and some feed store molass watered down.

Matt

another shot. All I did get done was testing on the stuff myself. I had lots of fun tossing nasty parts into the mix just to see how well it worked. Even cleaned up an old stock carb real well, even though it doesn't work on aluminum.

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yankeecarman

Yankeecarman=Ron. Glad to know you. Will get the info and report back.

robertg

whoa.... that's pretty cool!

didn't know you could use molasses for that...

yankeecarman

Went on a club run yesterday and got the info from the demonstrator of the molassis deal. He said to mix it about 1 part molasssis and 4 parts water and leave about two to three weeks. If you want quicker action increase the mixture and it will take less time. Does a fantastic job and gets in those hard to reach spots. Saw it myself and it works wonders. There you go. And it is still very cheap.

Gumby

Back from the dead but I wonder if any more recent members can share light on this subject.

__________________
86 Pontiac Firebird
[68 Firebird hoodscoops, custom notchback,
custom rear mounted tach, inverted wing.]
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/v6...-all-over.html
I love my new notch-back. See link for newer pics and above mods.

Apeiron

Vinegar will do the same thing, as will just about any acid.

bluegrassz

interesting thread.

gearhead0384

DO you need to cover it or do you just leave it out in the open?

Kevin

__________________
1989 IROC-Z Hardtop
2nd Place Best Restoration Thirdgen Fest 2007 -- 2nd Place Best Restoration Thirdgen Fest 2008 -- 1st Place Best Restoration Thirdgen Fest 2009 -- 3rd Place Best Modified Thirdgen Fest 2009
*Just a little Vortec set up*

yankeecarman

Leave it out in the open. If you want it stronger, add a little more in a few days. But, remember after a number of days it will start to smell. The effects are very good and to cover a large surface is very cheap.

12secformula

Ok, I have a question about this topic....I am wanting to do the underside of my car before I put the new drivetrain in it. Do you know what ratio I should mix this to get it done in about a week? Do you have to wash it off when you are done or what? This is a very interesting topic. How bad is this smell too...i dont want this car to stink. Any help would be appreciated.

__________________
00 T/A M6, SLP lid, K&N Filter, Ported TB, ASP UD pulley, UMI shortstick.

86 Mustang Coupe 308/T5, N.O.S., 4.11's, Suspension mods. 11.89@115 NA.

Gumby

You need to soak the part in the stuff for 24hrs+

Its not gonna work just by spraying it on.

Only problem is once the part is done. You gotta get something on it fast. Sure you can wash it off but the bare metal will rust in sec once wet with water.

Bear concrete etch and rust remover [ home depot garden section ] is also good at taking down rust. It can be sprayed on. diluted with water 50/50 its still powerful. Very alkaline, wear gloves, Don't get it on you. It can also be used to prep metal before coating.

Works great at keeping bare metal parts from rusting over long periods of time. I spray it on fresh welds and it keeps them clean.
[Avoid vapors.]

But it works great. I cleaned up a very rusty Harley rim with it.
Sprayed it down every once in a while every few days.

__________________
86 Pontiac Firebird
[68 Firebird hoodscoops, custom notchback,
custom rear mounted tach, inverted wing.]
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/v6...-all-over.html
I love my new notch-back. See link for newer pics and above mods.

Apeiron

Acidic, not alkaline. Its muriatic acid.

Gumby

Well it taste alkaline.

Very much so. The strongest alkaline Ive accidentally tasted. Compared to alkaline growth on batteries its x1000

__________________
86 Pontiac Firebird
[68 Firebird hoodscoops, custom notchback,
custom rear mounted tach, inverted wing.]
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/v6...-all-over.html
I love my new notch-back. See link for newer pics and above mods.

Apeiron

I won't even ask why you go around tasting these things.

head

Sounds alot like using COKE A COLA to clean engine blocks like some of the old time racers around hear used to do ! Bet it tastes better too.. lol

stalin05

Hmmmm, so this is just molasses you pick up at the store? And what do ya do wiht big parts you cant soak it in?

Gumby

Just 'Bumpin'

yankeecarman

Its industrial type molassis and you should be able to buy it at a place where they sell feed for horses, etc. It does a great job but you have to be prepared to soak the parts and wash them after a few days.

loudpedal

I have used a product called Evapo-Rust that I bought a year or two ago to remove rust on small tools. It worked great. It was about $5 for a quart size plastic bottle.

So last month I needed to de-rust a 4 cylinder case...actually two of them. I have had cases acid etched before and it runs about $50 for a 4 cyl and $90 or $100 for a V-8 depending on the size. The problem with taking it to an acid dipper is that the residual from the dip stays in the iron pores. Even tho you soak it in baking soda for a day it is still not enough. It needs neutralizing for a week. I decided to try Evapo-Rust and I found it , of all places at Harbor Fright and they have it for $19.95 for a gallon which happens to be the cheapest price for a gallon. So five gallons later I dipped two 4 cyl cases, a few misc small pieces, 2 flywheels, and a cylinder head....(so I got my moneys worth) and then last week I did a crankshaft....BUT....E.R. runs out of steam as it only disolves(holds) so much rust and turns a dark black then quits.

I have noticed in using E.R. that there was a smell/odor even with the lid on the plastic tub. Not an objectionable odor..almost nice??? And I started looking around the internet as E.R. is not that expensive but hey....maybe I can cut costs? Molasses seems, by many posts/sites to be the answer.

So this afternoon I called Smart & Final (a chain of stores that cater to restaurants and roach coaches)...yes they had it in gallons...for $18. Well, diluted 4:1 its $3.50 ...but wait...there's more. The local feed store sells a 5 gallon pail for $20. WOW...now were talkin. I'll by a pail on the way home.....and fill the tub (no not the bathtub you fool) and........

I'll post in a few days some results after I do some dipping using molasses.

mmadden55

Best way to remove rust.


Another technique for removing rust is etching with Phosphoric Acid. Phosphoric Acid has a unique property of dissolving iron oxide quickly while etching iron very slowly. This means that you can leave metal in Phosphoric Acid for much longer than necessary with very little damage. The acid will attack bare metal slowly and will start the process of hydrogen embrittlement, so use the minimum etch time that removes all rust.
Another unique advantage of Phosphoric Acid is that it leaves a fine coating of iron phosphate behind. Iron phosphate prevents rust. However, the iron phosphate coating is not very thick and not durable. Some additional protection is still required.

Phosphoric Acid etch will leave a hard, bright metal finish. This is because it will etch the surface slightly, exposing new, bare metal. Often this is desirable. It leaves an attractive surface and a surface ready to paint. A common product which contains Phosphoric Acid is Naval Jelly. The soft drink Coca-Cola contains Phosphoric Acid, so Coke will etch rust. But Coke also contains carbonic acid and other nasty things.
Auto body shops treat metal with acid metal wash, a solution of Phosphoric Acid and alcohol before painting. This removes waxes and oils, removes slight amounts of rust that form between sand blasting and painting, and leaves a thin protective coat of iron phosphate. One commercial solution for this is DuPont Quick-Prep. Sherwin Williams has a similar product called Metal Prep.

UNCLE TOM

another cheap trick for small parts is cheap white vinegar . has been used by antique restoration people for years . soak in plastic sealed container , let soak 24hrs. , inspect , resoak as required . vinegar is a mild acid , treat it as such when cleaning & prep. for paint . picked this info. up while restoring old harleys . i did say small parts . good luck .

loudpedal

[quote=mmadden55;4299451]Best way to remove rust.

""" you can leave metal in Phosphoric Acid for much longer than necessary with very little damage. The acid will attack bare metal slowly and will start the process of hydrogen embrittlement, so use the minimum etch time that removes all rust. """""""


Well in my post last week I mentioned acid dipping and the associated problems and that it must be neutralized AND possibly I did not mention that using acid that you WILL have disposal issues. You cannot (well you can if you want) use acids on rotatng engine parts.

The molasses issue, if it does work adaquately, will allow for
easy disposal down the drain
no possible damage as in an acid spill
no damage to the user
no damage to engine parts
inexpensive and readily availiable

so to continue the experiment...........

two crankshafts , one of which had flaky rust on the counterweights, and was fairly rusty were put in the tub and 3:1 water to molasses. After two days I took the worst one out and rinsed and wire brushed it to get a new "bite". Back in for two more days and there was definite progress. Today will be the third look (this evening) and three days after the last look. Total of 7 days in the soup so far. The molasses mix is not as fast as the Evapo-Rust solution that I previously used on the two cases......but then the molasses is one tenth of the cost. I have read that very rusty items might take some time......we'll see in the next installment.

Gumby

Here is another wayto remove rust, I like it better, quicker, really easy too.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/hi...t=rust+removal (Heavy rust removal made easy, I’m a believer.)

__________________
86 Pontiac Firebird
[68 Firebird hoodscoops, custom notchback,
custom rear mounted tach, inverted wing.]
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/v6...-all-over.html
I love my new notch-back. See link for newer pics and above mods.

loudpedal

This is the third and last of the three installments.

I always like to use the KISS (keep it simple stoopid) method and this method IS very simple. NO black boxes, no battery chargers, no disposal problems....anddddd very little $$

After experimenting with ratio of molasses and water I find 1 part to 3 or 4 parts water works best.....molasses works very well. Yes the downside is time..The only downside. The rusty cranks took 8-9 days in the soup. A rusty flywheel took 8 days.

If a part is really rusty and greasy, rinsing off with water halfway thru the cycle and removing any grease oil crud then putting the part back in the tub for the balance of the cycle you will have a rust free part.

$17.50 a five gallon pail which makes 15 to 20 gallons of solution.....very happy with the almost free results.