Thought I'd start a little fire, among you Vortec guys. j/k. Anyway, in the Jan. 04 issure of CHP there was a 383 w/ a 230/230 480 lift cam, w/ Vortec heas, Perf. intake, 750 etc, that made about 430hp. With the only change being the AFR 180's, which even dropped the compression 1/2 point, the engine made 50fwhp more and the same peak tq. The thing to note was that the AFR's made peak tq about 1k higher than the Vortecs which made for the impressive hp and higher shift of the powerband. The Vortecs were 174cc and the AFR's were 180's. They then added 1.6 rockers from 1.5's and got 14 more hp. The extra lift shows the awesome potential of the AFR's. I'd say that this power increase is worth the $800 or so extra price of the AFR's. Check out the mag guys and girls.

I'm assuming this is the 400ci engine they tested. AFRs are supeior, no doubt. Just comes down to $/power and at what RPM you will use that hp.
It was a good article-
S-D

Thanks, man. You're right it's a 406, I don't know what I was thinking.

Yep, just picked up that issue yesterday. Very good article to read. I was stunned they made that kind of power running on 87 octane. It was a 406 if I remember. Did they say that the AFR's were out of the box? or did they have some work done to them?

There's also a cool article about some guy with an old Nova running a 632ci Donovan big block, with huge dual quads on a high rise, running in the 8's. Amazing what you can do with some money.

before anyone else says it:



vortec heads : truck heads


AFRs: one of if not THE best performance heads out there.



its like me saying, "hey, i made a motor that revs to 8k and the TPI gave me 300hp, but then when i put on a stealthram i got 400!" its a kind of a DUH thing.

I've been doing a little bit of research on the AFR 180s (also the Pro Topline 180s) and I've been impressed at just how similar the 180s flow to the 190s and 195s. I had always dismissed the 180s as too small for a decent 350 (or larger) buildup, but this article really opened my eyes. These guys made BIG power from a set of heads that should still be able to provide great velocity.

Yeah, good writeup. Actually, the peak tq and HP numbers were only raised 600 rpm by the AFR's over the Vortecs, not 1000. The AFR's were competition CNC-ported 180's.

I'm not going to preech on Vortec heads, AFR's are way better. But I would like to see this same test done on a 350 engine. I think the hp gain from goin to AFR heads wouldn't be as great. If they would have used AFR 195, or 210, I bet the gains would be even more. On the same note, I understand the reason for the test. They wanted to show how well realatively small runner heads could perform. I am impressed at the numbers using 180 heads.

Actually, my particular set of heads out-flowed even the CNC'd AFR 195's all the way to .600 lift and my heads peaked at .550. And, this was with my smaller cc intake ports! The vortecs have taller runners (better for velocity).

And yes, I know my heads are FULLY ported etc.... And I know if the AFR's had the same treatment that they would be better.....yada....yada, but I still only paid $400.00 for my heads! (I got one hell of a deal)!

But, even the out of box vortecs are still good for 235 cfm which will easily support over 400 hp naturally aspirated.

How many people here are making that much power............there are several, but not all that many.

How many people can afford the AFR's ? Alot more people here can afford the vortecs!

Just my $.02

What do your heads flow?

278@.550

Blah, blah, my ported AFR 210's flow 300cfm on intake with just a bowl blend and smoothed out ports. The exhause ports were sqared up and flow 260cfm w/pipe. Lets see Vortecs do that! Mike you know I'm just trying to give you a hard time, bro. Another thing, CHP said those AFR's were $1900. Good grief, that IS a lot of money. You could get those same heads at a bunch of places for around $1400-1500.

That looks like the Comp Cams Magnum 280 grind. I'm running the Magnum 286 in my 408. I was considering a swap to the AFR 200cc Street heads over the winter. I think that article just solidified my plans. With the slightly bigger cam and the bigger ports, that should put the HP closer to 500!

I'm going to pick up that CHP issue today. Thanks for posting this.

The AFR's may have been better in that test but i bet if they used the Edelbroch E-Tec 200 they would have made more power and they only coast $1099 at Summit!!!!

Hmm, if that's true then the results are not so stunning. And that makes the price difference a lot more dramatic.

I'm sure the AFR's would still win right out of the box, but the power per dollar may still be on the vortec's side.

I am not even close to being impressed. You can buy a hell of alot more than just 49hp for 1284$, what a joke!

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...imp/index.html

Your math is off.

My math says 1284$.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/t..._imp/index.html

Like I said earlier, I see why the test was done. But who is going to spend the $$ for AFR's, and then just get the 180 version for a 406? Why did they use a small runner on a big engine? Why no test on a more common 350? The gains would have been much less IMO.

Wonder how much power a set of vortecs that have the same valve size and half the $$$ spent in professional porting preparation would fair against the CNC ported 180cc AFR's. I'd bet the power gap would be closed up quite a bit.

Funny, if you look on the AFR site at their SBC intake manifolds, they seem to look an awful lot like
Professional Product's Power plus, typhoon and Hurricane series.

Wow, I knew I'd probably strike a nerve w/ this post. I promise I didn't mean to make anyone made though. Come on guys, Ominous, you get the math right, AFR's are about $1450 just about anywhere reasonable and Vortecs are around $650 dollars, which = $800. Read my posts, and you'll see what I mean. As for adding aluminum heads being a joke, please....I guess you're not counting the possibilities of how much more power some aluminum heads of making when hugh cams, power adders, etc. are added. I mean how are they a joke? Really, man, don't think this thread so personal. It's just to show the advantages of a good aftermarket head. Every else who's posted will agree.

johnsjj2, they tested the 180's because they were the closest thing to the vortecs, duh. They were going for ultimate tq for a street-driven car. We all know you're not going to beat a 400 when you talking about smallblocks. Read some of Lingenfelter's books, if you wanna know why they tested the engine the way they did.

Heres the bottom line Pal.

The magazine reported what they used and what they gained. They spent 1284$ extra on CNC competition heads and got 49hp, combo for combo. My math skills need no attention what so ever. I am sure that everyone else that read the article saw exactly what I did.

1284$=49hp

You pointed people to an article but now see the need to extrapolate the potential of those heads beyond what is in print? There is no need to count anything outside the test information that was listed.
There are a whole bunch of good aftermarket heads that could have bought 49hp for alot less than 1284$.


You started a flame fest based purely on the results of this article, seems like you are getting defensive

I don't give two skunk $hits what the mag says about price. I'm talking about reality and in reality You CAN buy THESE same AFR heads for about $1400! READ MY POSTS. Read what I'm saying in this thread, not the mag (regarding price). If you want to argue or refute CHP write them about them getting ripped off, don't start flaming me about price, that's just dumb.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You pointed people to an article but now see the need to extrapolate the potential of those heads beyond what is in print? There is no need to count anything outside the test information that was listed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again re-read the magazine, I was only re-itterating their words which were exactly this, "With a large grind camshaft, there is no doubt that the AFR 180-equipped 406 could have made well over 500hp...". Go extrapolate that, LOL.

As for other heads making 50 more hp, find em. Find a set that have 180cc intake runners. Note this, the reason I posted this thread is because the AFR 180's are as close as you can get to the Vortecs in the aftermarket cylinder head world. If you think there are other heads that are this size and could perform like this, prove it. Other than that put up or shut up. And don't come back with an argument on runner size, because it would be out of context in relation to this thread.

:lala: :lala: :lala: Other than that put up or shut up. :lala: :lala: :lala:

Troll season is officially open. :rockon:

For 1284$ I bet I could get a set of Vortec heads to put out that 50hp, after a good proper work over, actually for that kind of money I could probably have 2 sets!!!!!!!!!!!

Link me to the places where I can get Competition 180s for 1400$, the AFR site still say 1900$

Alright, everyone else who wants to talk about the the article and their opinions about it, go ahead. But please no flaming, I can't take it anymore, all the laughter will make my head explode.

For a total of 490hp at 5,600 rpm and 529 lb-ft torq. at 4,100 rpm!
That makes for a nice street motor ! :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

I couldnt agree more.
1900$ for a set of heads that at the end of the day only flow 268 cfm max. Thats enough to rattle anyones coconut.

The CNC port is standard when you get AFRs. That's just what they call it. If it was a serious port job besides the expected CNC by AFR then they wouldn't be 180cc. And if that was a "serious CNC port job" then what would the 190cc heads be, "mega serious CNC port job", which would then make the 195cc heads " ultra mega serious CNC port job".

The truth is for the same price as the 180cc heads they could have had 195cc heads which would have undoubtably increased the output of the 400+ c.i. engine. I don't have the article but in order to get the AFR heads that high in price they had to get and angle mill job, 10* titanium retainers as well as upgraded springs and valves. The springs and Ti retainers won't add to anything but cost on a torque motor.

True, but they also have a competion head offering that does add flow across the board and alot of price as well. Check their site for further clarification.

No doubt, bigger heads would have set that 400sbc over 500hp all day.

But even with the price of the AFR heads considered, the numbers are killer.

they should bolt on some afr 210s see what there worth over the smaller heads

I didn't see that this had been posted before, so here it is:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...imp/index.html

ProTopline Lightning 180cc

.100"- 73.88cfm .200"- 150.89cfm .300"- 206.86cfm .400"- 242.68cfm .500"- 257.90cfm .600"- 263.27cfm .700"- 270.12cfm

I don't know if this was mentioned above, but don't forget that with the AFR combo the comp. ratio was lowered!! And also running on 87 octane fuel should pay for the heads after a few years.....well mabey not quite.

ahem, yes, maybe a few hundred. ~~

S-D

I read the article. AFR's are great heads for a great big price. So what else is new. If you look at the dyno results, AFR got it's butt handed to it until 4200 rpm or so. AFR's returned the favor after that. Vortecs are a truck head with unmatched power below that 4200 rpm level where most of us drive...with great gas mileage to boot. The Vortecs have the potential to run the upper limits respectably for a great price. 300 rwhp is a bench mark most guys/gals would like to have without affecting driveability. That now can be had for cheap, thanks to Vortecs.

Question is the same for any aftermarket add on. Where do you realisticly do a majority of your driving or....what are you willing to put up with to be "undisputed champion of the streets, strips, what have you? The goals for people purchasing Vortecs SHOULD be different for people purchasing AFR's. I personally would love a set of AFR's to replace my Vortecs but for the cost, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Here's some more fuel for your scorching thread....AFR guys should quit whinning that they paid three times more for their heads and now they can't afford those nice SFC's or that killer set of Weld Wheels. Vortec guys just budget better!

Ominous, alright, I'll admit that I'm an idiot for overlooking the "competition" ported version of the 180's. If they really are that much dough then they are overpriced. The fully cnc-ported 190's or 195's can be had from several venders, including TEA, for about $1450. The 210's are $1750 fully cnc'd and they flow 285cfm or close to that. I got my 190's for $1450 w/ every l98 option, including being milled. I thought there was only one version of the 180's like it used to be. I guess there's another version now.

I still like the investment of the aftermarket aluminum heads, but you could still get a pair of Vortecs up to par w/ these AFR heads for less or close to the same $$. I've said it before and I still like the Vortecs, I'm not knocking their potential, but I think they do need modification to keep up w/ the aftermarket. I think CHP should invest the same $$ in the Vortecs by porting them and then compare them to AFR's. I still can't believe that the 180's are that much, the price can only go down though. Geez.

I don't see what the arguing is about. The results are what they are. And I personally think that 50-60 HP more on a VERY streetable N/A combo is a TON! And I would pay an extra $800-$1200 to have the same N/A combo but with different heads run THAT much more power.

If you want a streetable, N/A motor, you only have so much potential to work with. Obviously, the AFR's have MUCH more potential than the Vortecs when you start reving higher. 50-60 HP is HUGE when using the same cam and intake! On the other hand, if you have a 350 TPI and shift at 4800, the Vortecs are obviously the way to go.

The facts are there. Like I said, they are what they are. You have to decide which head is best for your budget and your combo. If I was building a 350 LTR TPI motor, I would definitely get the Vortecs. If I wanted something that I was expecting to make power well past 4800 rpm, I would get the AFR's.

Very well said Buc!!

I like how you put it too, Buckeye. The 50hp in this test is just the beginning of what the AFR's can do. If they put a much bigger cam in the 406 the AFR's could have easily made 100+hp. That being said, I think the $1200 extra in price would be justifiable, but I guess to some people it wouldn't though. Some guys with Vortecs would just cry about the money issue again. That's why I suggested that CHP put the same amount of money in the Vortecs and see what the #'s are. Then again who would want to buy a set of iron heads, dump a bunch of money in them to equal the price of the AFR's as well as time and only have them perform as good as a set of AFR's, which are sold ready to run? :confused:

Yeah, a 230 cam w/ only .480 lift in a 406 is not big at all. I've ridden in Gofasterfirebird's car w/ a 406, 240/240 .560" lift cam and LT1 intake, and I would say it could be daily driven. I think my 219/219 in a 355 is small too. I'm thinking of at least a 230 cam for my LS1 and it will still be a daily driver.

Now that is a reasonable position to have. However 1284$ can buy a ton of head work: race valves, huge spings, and alot of porting!!! I bet there would still be some cash left over.

But that however would be a very fair comparison.

Assembled Vortec Heads:
$400

vs

Assembled AFR 180 Heads:
$1200

Similar Comparison:



vs

This arguement is pointless.