Well, let's start the battle afresh! The January 2002 Chevy High Performance is out and they have given their anemic 1987 Camaro 305 a 100 hp snort of nitrous. Now it cuts a 13.82 @ 100.23 mph in the quarter mile. But they frankly confess they are disappointed in its performance and want readers to suggest what they should do next. Well, guys and gals? ------------------ 1986 Camaro Sports Coupe Flame Red Metallic with Black accents and Red interior T-tops, variable wiper, power hatch, rear defrost, third brake light LG4 305 V8, Hooker Shorty headers, 3" pipe into Walker Quiet Flow dual exhaust Edelbrock Performer intake, "Damonized" Q-Jet 4bbl, K&N filter, Crane ignition kit TH700R4 transmission and Derale cooler Air conditioning, power windows, power door locks, power brakes, power steering, tilt wheel Kenwood cassette, Pioneer 6x4 component front speakers Rockford Fosgate 6x9 Punch rear speakers Z-28 front and rear sway bars Aluminum slots and Goodyear 225x60R15 Eagle HP tires 243 horsepower and 326 foot pounds of torque at the flywheel _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ Yea verily, and he smote the smog heathens from his small block Chevy, even from the air pump to the converter ... Todd 1:1

It's out on newsstands??

I live in Calgary, Alberta and we've got it. You live in the lower 48 so you guys MUST have it by now!

The December issue says that the January issue won't be out till the 13th.

They can buy my old heads and cam! That would make me happy.
No really, Can you say 200 shot?

------------------
'88 RS (originally 2.8)
-350, .040 over, vette alum. L98s, stock tpi.
-305 injectors & chip
-TES headers & edelbrock cat back
-3.73 gears, 700r4.
Best with 2.8-17.4@77mph
Best with 305-15.0@93mph
Best with 356-13.7@101mph
on a 2.050 60 ft.
(Damn the 2.8!)

tell them to follow some of their own suggestions in camshafts from their previous issues. they should be b@tch smacked for putting that anemic peanut cam in that motor.

------------------
87 IROC-Z
305 AUTO 2.73 OPEN REAR, T-TOPS, GUTTED AIRBOX, HOME MADE RAM AIR, AIRFOIL, UNDERDRIVE PULLEYS, ACCEL CAP & ROTOR, ACCEL COIL, TPIS WIRES, BOSCH PLATINUM PLUGS, JUST HIT 80,000 MILES

A guy in their "Letters to the Editor" tore a strip off them for their slow times and parts choices.

The claim it is all they can do in California.

So, Californians, isn't there a better but still emissions legal camshaft they could have used?

What about the other parts used to be emissions compliant?

Im sorry but if they are that stupid on building that car, they shouldnt be running a magazine.

they shoulda took that 5,000 or whatever they spent and done this:::

stock shortblock, Lingenfelter 219 hydralic roller smog legal cam, 1 3/4 long tubes with air tubes, 3000 vigilante converter, Superram, 52mm throttlebody, random boltons, afr 190 heads. The car would easily run bottom 12's/high 11's on the motor. Keep that bottle and theyd have a 10 sec CA smog legal car

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10.32 @ 135
85' Vette - 694 dynoed horspower daily driver. 383 Stroker (Eagle SIR Kit /w Keith Black Hyper flattops), AFR 190 BoxStock Alum Heads, NX 200 hp Nitrous kit, Holley 750 DP, Victor JR, MSD ProBillet Distrib, Art Carr 700R4 with 3600 Vigilante Stall, 1.5 Crane Rockers, Corbeau Forza Race Seats, CompCams 294HR 242/248 .546/.560 @ 110 hyd roller retrofit
-----89 Mustang GT 5.0,
11.54 @ 123
A4 blocked, 355 Stroker, TFS Twisted wedge heads, TFS-R Intake, Tremec TKO, 150 HP NOS Kit. 550 dynoed horsepower
- 92 3000GT VR-4 AWD,
12.79 @ 108
Twinturbo, 15g turbos, HKS intercoolers, HKS EVC-IV, HKS SBOV, HKS Timer

Have you even read any of the articles? How do you put a superram and 52mm throttle body on an LG4?

Must be some kinda weird distributorship thing in Alberta. I usually see GMHTP on the newstands in Cold Lake(!) weeks before anyone on these boards mentions it.

Anyways, I'll reiterate what I said in another thread,...

In order of importance(my opinion only)

1. rebuild the carb or just slap an emissions legal holley on there
2. complete ignition upgrade - distributor, wires, coil, plugs, all of it!
3. LCA's and a stiffer torque arm
4. higher stall converter and a shift kit, if not a rebuilt tranny

and an add
5. SFC's

I'd be a helluva lot more impressed to see them run low-14s on motor, than high 13's on the bottle!

I'm beginning to think they are trying to outdo GMHTP fo the most inept build-up series. Ah well, at least they haven't taken a year to diagnose a burnt-out SES bulb.

As has been said multiple times I'd have them step up the cam. There has to be a hotter cam that'll still pass. Hell, that cam is smaller than a couple factory 305 cams. The 2030 compucam at least would pass...

Other than that there's just about got to be something wrong with the car. It should be running faster even with that cam with the setup they have. Needs to at least get mid 14s on motor, and that's still pretty crappy...

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray

[This message has been edited by Ray87Z (edited November 06, 2001).]

heck I'm pretty sure all of cranes compucams carry a CARB exemption # so I don't see how they could be holding back due to emmisions. they said in one of the articles that there tech advisor suggested against a cam with more than 200 duration at.050 he said it would hurt there low end torque too much. Go back and check the articles you'll see it

------------------
87 IROC-Z
305 AUTO 2.73 OPEN REAR, T-TOPS, GUTTED AIRBOX, HOME MADE RAM AIR, AIRFOIL, UNDERDRIVE PULLEYS, ACCEL CAP & ROTOR, ACCEL COIL, TPIS WIRES, BOSCH PLATINUM PLUGS, JUST HIT 80,000 MILES

The cam they used, even though it may seem small, should support 250 hp @ 4800 - 5000. Their motor, obviously, is falling way short of those numbers. My guess is the lungs are having trouble getting enough air - which is why I vote for upgrading the carb. That and it's(the carb) the only part they haven't upgraded, which probably makes it a restriction to the rest of the motor. Also that 100-shot seems to have increased output by 130 hp, so it would seem the cylinders are not reaching their breathing potential.

Once they've made sure that there are no more restrictions to airflow, then it's time to make sure the mixture is properly lit - i.e., a full-on performance ignition to replace the tired factory set-up.

And then comes the fun part,... dialling it in for best performance.

They rebuilt the transmission with a B&M kit but don't seem to have gone for a higher stall torque converter when it was out.

I think a bit hotter cam and a 2200 rpm stall converter would have chopped maybe an additional 1/2 second off their times, maybe even more.

The torque converter seems like a major oversight.

Guys, the only thing u can do to the carb is tune the secondaries, they did that. I agree the cam is to small for the numbers they want, especially in light of the 3.73's they installed. The trans needs to be gone through and a looser converter would help. I prefer they run crappy numbers instead of inflated false results. It gives us an idea of what NOT to do and what works...

------------------
86 SC, 305 LG4, TH700R4, SLP headers, 3" cat and exhaust. ZZ intake, Mild cam 204/214, .423/.442. SLP shift kit, richmond 3.73's w/limited slip. Suspension Techniques Sway Bars, Globel West Wonderbar, Poly everything bushings, Metco LCA's, Lakewood Panhad Rod. 16" ROH, with BFG G-Force KDW 245's. Nothing easy can be fun...

With a carb, the intake runners are so small that it cannot gain the momentum to support the large cams and would lose low end torque. Ets are all about Hp, anyone have a 60 foot time with the nitrous?

Torque baby! It probably has above 300 lb/ft, and enough to leave the line like a Big Block, and on a 305. I think that it would make a great daily driver. With the nitrous shot could toast any thing but a few things.

They did spend way to much. Buying and especially porting the head was a big mistake. Air going through a smaller area has a greater velocity, and will 'ram' into the cylinder and increase low endt torque.

------------------
Colin Finkle
87 Sport Coupe Camaro, 5.0 L V8

I suggest they move the project to Michigan where the emmisions man does not exsist.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

Colin,

I hope when you're talking about leaving the line like a big-block, you're planning on bringing at least 400 lbs/ft to the party. Realistically, I'd say their 305 is making in the neighbourhood of 275 lbs/ft.

I think that it would make a great daily driver.

A stock L98 makes a pretty good daily driver(and let's face it, with the $5400 they've spent - their tally - they could've bought a nice L98 car). Instead, all they've done is spend a wad to remain 'Stang bait.

After finishing the latest installment of "My Generation", I flipped to the "The Best of CHP Tech" article. It became immediately clear(to me) why their Camaro has been so disappointing: the folks that write for CHP obviously don't read CHP.

Ah well, at least they mention replacing their turd motor(even for a 305 it stinks) with a 350, as an option.

... and then I get's to thinkin',...

don't GMPP make a 350 conversion package for '82 - 87 F-bodies with a LG4 or a L69 and a 700R4 tranny?

Well yessiree bubba, there it is in the GMPP catalog. 'sposed ta make 308 hp and 365 lbs/ft an' be able to power a Camaro to a 13.83 et @ 98 mph. Great,... but is it emissions legal. Yup says here it's legal in all 50 states complete with CARB EO#.

So how much does this bad boy set ya back? Well, Scoggins-Dickey says they got 'em in stock, but they cost $4495. Sounds a bit pricey, but then again, that's almost a grand less than those boys at CHP spent. Says here, it comes with the bits to improve the shift-firmness and some upgraded lower-control arms too(s'posed ta help control wheel hop doncha know).

Mebbe I should send them guys at Chevy High Performance a copy of the GMPP catalog(I woulda figured they had one of their own) and Scoggins-Dickey's address while I'm at it.

Hot Rod is doing it to their '82 z.

For the GM PP conversion, you are basically getting a ZZ4, which is a a 350 4 bolt main with L98 heads, plus an intake. Except for the 4 bolt main, we all know that you can convert to an L98 setup easily, and less than 5 grand. I don't know the cam specs, but I dought it would run as well as the 305, on 45 more cubes.

Add some Fast Burns and a hi rise intake, then you will have a good speed demon, but you have spent 7 or 8 grand and out of emissions.

------------------
Colin Finkle
87 Sport Coupe Camaro, 5.0 L V8

I know some people don't like to hear this
but 350 They said they planed on putting a 350 inin the future.Soooo instead of rebuildingthat little old 305 they could have got a 350and started with that.If I remmber correctly thats what they wrote.They would be in the 13's by now.Don't they say try to plan every thing before you start.So if you had a 350 vortec heads and a nice smog cam and intake they would be where they wanted.So yhey need a 350.

Can anyone explain how California emissions laws work?

I think part of the equation you guys are missing is that they know they are eventually going to put a 350 in there. How many articles in that mag. are on 350 build ups? I think they are just trying to go against the grain of conventional wisdom here and build a 305 because you have to admit there are a lot of 305 powered cars out there. Just look at how many people here on the boards are just to stubborn to give up there their anemic 305's for a 350. I know I thought I was going to enjoy the article since I myself have a 305 powered iroc but like most of you I have been disapointed.

Everyone gets so bent out of shape about California emissions. They make it act like a noose around your neck. Its really just a bunch of BS. The reality is any part you put on your car must be 50-state legal and have a CARB EO# on it. There are thousands of parts that meet that requirement. Also, you cannot change or modify any of the factory smog parts on the car. They've chosen the smallest smog legal parts, rather than the largest. They could have easily put in an L98 or LT1 cam, or larger, and it'd still be emissions friendly and pass the smog test. They went way too conservative in my opinion, and most everyone else's opinion too. CA smog is easy to pass if you follow the simple rules. And you can make lots of power too, as those of us with brains have figured out.

------------------
1991 Camaro Z28
5.7L 5-Speed (originally 305)
317 RWHP, 418 RWTQ
13.23 @ 107.62 MPH (2.10 60')
Southern California
Member: SoCal 3rd Gen F-Bodies
Member: SoCal F-Bodies
-=ICON Motorsports=-

The biggest thing I'm wondering about is swapping engines. They couldn't just put any 350 block in, could they? It'd have to be a complete unit with all the emissions equipment from a newer passenger car or an emissions certified crate motor or something like that, wouldn't it?

Maybe Kevin, or someone else from Cali, can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that it is not enough for a part to have an EO#; but the part has to be used on an intended application. For instance, just because a particular camshaft is a legal swap into an L98 does not mean it is legal to swap it into an LG4, even though the cam fits as easily into the 350 block as the 305. My thinking here is that: even if the camshaft produces acceptable emissions levels in the L98, in the LG4 it would produce unacceptably high emissions. So once the cam manufacturer goes to all the trouble and expense of having the camshaft CARB-cerified for the L98, they would have to go through the whole process again for the LG4(and any other application that they wished to gain an exemption for: for that camshaft). That being said, the camshaft manufacturer has to be realistic and ask themselves: "will enough LG4 owners buy this camshaft to make it worth our while to seek certification?".

Most aftermarket manufacturerrs are going to say: "Only a minority of 305 owners get serious enough about their motor to get to the cam-swap stage, and of that minority how many LG4 owners are going to make serious upgrades to their motors? Especially when they could spend the same amount on a 350 - or larger - motor and make more power." So while you may see a lot of camshafts that carry an EO#, how many are actually a legal swap for an LG4?

With that logic(irrespective of whether it is right or wrong), most aftermarket manufacturers are going to have a hard time justifying seeking a 305-specific exemption for a part.

There is also the perception out there that the 305 is a bit troublesome(cracked valve seats are common, and the early 305's were famous for being detonation prone) and doesn't respond that well to bolt on parts(something these CHP articles are not helping with).

A lot of folks(including some in the aftermarket) are going to look at these CHP articles and conclude: for the time, money and effort involved, it just isn't worth it to upgrade an LG4. Now mind you, I've read a few articles where a 305 upgrade yielded much better results for a lot less money, but those results always seem to be quickly forgotten.

And let's face it, CHP could've done a much better job of picking a donor. You don't seriously expect someone to sell you a V-8 powered thirdgen for $250, unless it has some serious problems. And if you start upgrading right away, without making a real effort to find each and every problem, you'll probably get what you deserve(and paid for): JUNK!

Colin,

There is a lot more to the 350 HO conversion than what you mention. This is probably the most complete crate motor you can buy. And for the few parts that are not directly included in the crate, the stock LG4 or L69 parts are used. Yes the price may seem high at first, but considering you don't have to buy any additional parts to complete it, it's not a bad deal.

If you want, I can email you a .pdf file(Adobe Acrobat) that details all the parts that come with the 350 HO conversion.

Ya, there is alot of cool stuff to the 350 swap (dual snorkel, dual exhuast.) But they were trying to apeal to the 305/youth market and they go it, hook-line-and sinker. Plus, Hot Rod is doing it so their is no love lost; it' going to be a good comparison when their both done.

I think that they need to keep it in perspective. A 305 thirdgen should be a descent daily driver, but not a 12 second street beast. It's a waist to think that you can build a track eater with a 305 on a budjet.

------------------
Colin Finkle
87 Sport Coupe Camaro, 5.0 L V8

Go for it! (Re- the adobe)

------------------
Colin Finkle
87 Sport Coupe Camaro, 5.0 L V8

.

[This message has been edited by 88IROCs (edited November 10, 2001).]

There's no such thing as an "emissions legal Holley" for a CC LG4.

------------------
82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R4 (restalled TC). Ported World 305 heads, Crane PowerMax cam. ZZ4 intake, oil pump, pan & baffle. Accel HEI SuperCoil & module. Hooker 2055 headers, 3" Catco cat & 3" catback w/dual-opposite Flowmaster. 2.93 limited slip, Spohn SFCs. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily year-round driver. Best ET, speed TBD...
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. '66 396, 9.7:1 forged TRWs, Weiand Action+, Holley 750VS w/4150 conversion, GK 270 cam, Magnum rockers, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" Hedders & 3" Warlocks, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & Trans-Scat shift kit, MegaShifter, 3.08 8.2" 10-bolt w/Powertrax, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Idles smooth @ 700 RPM in D. Best 15.02/95.06 @ 5800' Bandimere (corrected 13.93/102.4 @ sea level).

Yikes!!

You're right.

I thought the 4175 was smog-legal replacement.

Guess not.

How will the smog nazis in the People's Rebulik of Kalifornia know exactly what cam you've put in there, if it still passes the actual test? Couldn't you just say it was stock? As long as it's not some insanely radical cam there's no way to tell. Do you have to have some kind of certificate for every part on the car, including stuff they have no way of checking like the cam or heads?

How would they know you don't still have a 305 block too? My emissions people here are so stupid they don't seem to notice the absence of fuel injection and have no idea my motor is not a 305, it passes the numbers (for the 305) with ease on the dyno test so what can they do... If I made it appear that everything was in order and used a factory looking intake setup there's no way they could tell it wasn't legal. Not the same in the PRK???

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray

[This message has been edited by Ray87Z (edited November 09, 2001).]

Ray that's good to know about the smog crap if they ever (when) they require it in Newton county. I know that they have it one county over in Rockdale.

As far as the slow 305 they built for Ca. checkout the post on the Tech/Gen eng. board on Aug,18 2001 by RB83L69 titled 305 Dyno run.

He says the engine passes Ca smog and look at the list of parts he has.

With RB's info compared to the mag's buildup I just can't see why they say they can't do more.

I alway's read some different motive in how they do these writeups in the mags. They darn sure cannot be taken with anything but a grain of salt after all they are doing any of this for the money they get from the people that are trying to sell you they're parts.

------------------
91 RS 5.0 TBI....LT4 cam....Edelbrock headers....3"Dynomax exhaust....5spd.... 3.08.....Ultimate tbi....afpr...ZR 255-50's...Koni's

[This message has been edited by DM91RS (edited November 10, 2001).]

Not so fast five7kid! Holley makes the 4175 for 82-83 Firebirds and Camaro's that hooks directly up to the C-3 system and retains full emissions controls! Gotch YA!

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84 Camaro ZZ4 with HOT cam. Ported Heads, Installed Larger Race-Flo Valves, RPM Air Gap Intake, and 1 3/4" SLP Headers (Best 60',Quarter Mile, MPH) (1.88, 12.91, 106.77)
Other Mods: You name it and I have probably changed it.

2001 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 5.9L 4*2

The Bowtie
ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

CamaroMike,

Until Five7's last post, I too thought the 4175 was a e-legal replacement. However after checking Holley's Street Legal Replacement Guide, I was surprised to find that Five7 was indeed correct. In fact, Holley doesn't offer any e-legal carb's for any GM cars or trucks built after 1981.

I also checked into Edelbrocks Quadrajet replacement's. These are legal on 305-powered car's(1978 - '85) and trucks(1980 - 1989), but are not e-legal on LG4's and L69's.

This is probably why GMPP's 350 HO conversion forces the buyer to reuse the stock Quadrajet(albeit with new secondary metering rods).

I understand that Jones Electronics(of chips and airfoil fame) does rebuild these carbs for better performance. However, having bought two products made by them in the past, and having been thoroughly underwhelmed by the results, I would have hard time recommending them to anyone. Perhaps there are other shops out there(whom I would hope have some ethics toward quality and truth in advertising)who can mod the stock Q-jet, without making it e-illegal.

California emissions sucks. I heard that in Oklahoma you don't even have to get your cars inspected anymore. They voted out inspection stickers last year.

Bahaaahaaaahaaaaaa...... ROFL!!

------------------
1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

My car is CA emissions legal. How fast is yours? Now what sucks?


------------------
1991 Camaro Z28
5.7L 5-Speed (originally 305)
317 RWHP, 418 RWTQ
13.23 @ 107.62 MPH (2.10 60')
Southern California
Member: SoCal 3rd Gen F-Bodies
Member: SoCal F-Bodies
-=ICON Motorsports=-

The two places they really lost it was in the choice of the camshaft, which has the same specs as the ancient L69 305 factory job, and the stock torque converter.

.407 and .421 lift on the cam just ain't gonna get the job done. A step or two up would have gained some real ET advantages.

And a 2200 rpm torque converter would have knocked another 4 tenths of a second from their best time.

With a good cam and TC they should have hit low 14s or high 13s, with no nitrous needed.

[This message has been edited by Sitting Bull (edited December 01, 2001).]

I also must wonder if they have ever done a wheel alignment on that car. It might be slowing them down, too.