Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!
Have you guys seen the flow numbers for these heads!!! I will be getting rid of my TFS 23's to go with fast burns!! Anyone know how much the vortec TPI base costs?
After they were flowed, the guy suggested a valve job because the stock VJ wasn't very good. I also smoothed out the casting flash in the port entries and exits with a sand roll. Before I install them on the motor I'm gonna have them flowed again 2 see how much if anyting was gained.
[This message has been edited by Cntrvrsy (edited November 08, 2001).]
The "FastBurn's" will come up short against the TFS or AFR heads if all you go by is flow numbers. That can be misleading. All of these heads will flow in excess of what the engine really needs. Where the FastBurn heads will shine is in their design. The shape of the chamber promotes a lot of swirl and the sparkplug placement(biased toward the exhaust valve)is optimized. Combined, these features promote a very even and complete burn. This means you can use less compression and less ignition advance to make the same power as competing heads, which should make them very street friendly.
You might want to look at the Edelbrock E-Tec 170cc heads. These are cloned after the FastBurn heads, but the smaller intake runners(FastBurn runners spec out at 210cc) will promote more velocity at typical TPI engine speeds. The GMPP FastBurn heads don't really begin to shine on a 350 until about 4000 rpm, which is near the end of a typical TPI's powerband. As a bonus, the E-Tec 170cc heads cost about $200 less(assembled) than the FastBurns.
The Vortec manifold base is available from SDPC for $399.95.
[This message has been edited by 88IROCs (edited November 08, 2001).]
Yeah, I figured there must be some magic with the FastBurn heads if GM got 430HP out of 'em with a somewhat mild cam and SDPC got 465HP with a bigger cam.
I originally wanted 2 get the AFRs but I couldn't see spending the extra $350+ or so 2 get them milled and have the temp sensor drilled just 2 get them 2 fit my application. I'd rather take that extra $ and put it in2 the FastBurns and have the honor in saying it's all GM
To Cntrvrsy - where did you find that SDPC made 465 with the fastburn heads? I didnt see that on their site.
------------------
1991 Z-28 350 TPI, 700r4 with B&M shiftkit, 2400 stall, B&M Console Megashifter, 4th gen power seats, MSD6A, Blaster2 Coil, Holley 58mm TB, Ram-air, MSD 8.5 super conductor wires, Flowmaster catback, Crane rollers, march pulleys, and all free mods. (Currently in body shop getting fresh paint!!) I miss her! =(
The results on the page you linked are suspect at best.
He lists 5 different sources for his flow data. This invalidates any comparisons as there just too many variables(temp, pressure, operator, testing methodologies, etc.,) to keep track of and compensate for. Additionally, the flow numbers he lists for the Fast Burn heads are the most optimistic I've seen. He lists his source as Jim Pace Performance Parts. However, when I went to Pace's site and looked-up the FastBurn heads there was no flow data(their ad copy for these heads is taken right from the GMPP catalog).
Chevy High Performance has tested all the sbc heads currently available. Their testing has to be the most consistent that has been done. Which makes their data a more reliable source of comparison.
At any rate, you can't really compare the FastBurn heads(or their clones) based solely on flow numbers. There's more goodness in these heads than how much air they deliver to the chambers.
SDPC's 465HP ZZ430 crate motor is in the Nov. issue of Chevy High Performance. It's not listed on their website but I called and asked about it 2 make sure it wasn't a misprint.
I also enquired about the 266cfm @.500 that was once listed on Jim Pace's website. I was told those numbers were with 2.02/1.60 valves.
It also states that these numbers WERE with the 2.00 / 1.56 valves, read at bottom. It states that all heads had 2.02 / 1.60 valves EXEPT fast burn, vortec and another or so, but it states the valve sizes of these heads.
That looks just like the chart that was PaceParts website (I printed the page). It would be real nice if the FastBurns flowed those numbers. There was a guy here a while ago that had a set mildy ported and got the 260 cfm but I don't remember his screen name.
The guy that did the valve job on my heads told me that these aftermarket heads rarely flow what's advertised. He said that AFRs r good and so is Dart but the valve jobs on the Dart heads need 2 be looked at because they r automatically done in a assembly line like process, so not all r gonna come like they should.
I'm gonna try and get in touch with Gary from GMPP and see what the real deal is and how they got 266 cfm.
Cntrvrsy, let me know what you find! When I order my fast burn heads, I'm having the entire head polished inside and out to smooth casting roughness and I'm getting a 3 angle valve job done, also I'm upgrading the springs to dual valve springs (.600 lift capable). I was told by many machinists that by doing this, that these will be way better than the top of the line out of box TFS and AFR's without even porting them. 4 different recommended machinists cant be wrong!
1Bad, Go back 2 Salle's website and go 2 their Discussion Board. Click on their archive 4 February and scroll down 2 the date Feb.2 "Gary need help - Fast Burn flow #s..". I would post a link but I don't think it would work right.
According to gm, the fast burn heads is best with flat top piston. Is there any reason behind it? may be the cumbustion chamer's shape is optimal for flat top piston? If that's the case then the fast burn head isn't good for high compression(unless you milled the head...), and under boost condiion(dish piston).
Cntrvsy - have you flow benched your fast burns after the valve job? When mine come in, they are going to my machinist to be completely polished, mildly ported, fitted with 2.02 / 1.60 3 angled valves, and out fitted with dual valve springs (.600 lift capable), When I save the dough to do this, I'll have them flow benched and I'll post the numbers.
------------------
1991 Z-28 350 TPI, 700r4 with B&M shiftkit, 2400 stall, B&M Console Megashifter, 4th gen power seats, MSD6A, Blaster2 Coil, Holley 58mm TB, Ram-air, MSD 8.5 super conductor wires, Flowmaster catback, Crane rollers, march pulleys, and all free mods. (Currently in body shop getting fresh paint!!) I miss her! =(
Have you guys checked out the Edelbrock E-Tecs? They are basically the FastBurns with better exhaust ports, bigger valves, guideplates, and bigger spring pockets. These may save you some $ in the long run not to mention that they are cheaper than FastBurns to begin with.
The E-tecs are nice, but do not flow as well as the fast burns. The intake runners are also smaller (200cc compared to fast burn's 210cc) also you will lose .2 to 1 compression with the E-Tecs due to the combustion chamber being 2cc's larger on the E-tecs. In a 10 to 1 compression motor with fast burn heads and flattop pistons, you will be at 9.8 to 1 with E-Tecs.
When I seen a set of the fastburns at a GM performance parts display at a Drag Race, the
ports looked very rough as cast. I highly doubt they flow as advertized, out of the box. I own vortecs so I'm not knocking the design. You already have good cylinder head
castings with good flow numbers. Those heads can be ported with bigger valves to really kick up the flow. This would save buying a new vortec style intake etc. You weigh it out. you're going to have to buy all new stuff and still ports the fastburns
to get good power. I'd get a dealer or who every is offering those heads for sale to
let you take one to be flow tested before I layed out all this cash. Take on of your TFS 23deg heads along too. They should flow 253@.500 28" out of the box. I don't know what other parts you are using in your combo
but I wouldn't be too ready to toss those heads out yet.
[This message has been edited by F-BIRD'88 (edited November 14, 2001).]
Cntrvrsy: Those flow numbers you've posted
for the fast burns look like what you'd expect from the Vortecs. Very disapointing.
was that flowed @28" or @25".
Or was it flowed @10" (common methed on smaller benches)and converted with a conversion table. Just curious....
The heads were flowed @ 28" before I had the valve job done. In Car Crafts article, the Vortecs flow more low lift but the Fast Burns flow more up top.
Stock, the ports r rough especially the exhaust ports. I cleaned up the 1st 1 1/2" of the intake and I have a little more 2 clean up with the exhaust. I may remove the valves and touch up the bowl area. No reshaping, just smoothing out the as-cast-finish.
I just got a return e-mail from SDPC. They said the FastBurns don't flow what GM advertises because the prototypes used 4 that data were with 2.02/1.60 valves. (I heard this somewhere else as well).
I wouldn't ditch the TFS 23* either. If anything see if u can send them back 2 TFS 2 get the "BIg Port" treatment. I was told they flow somewhere around 260-270cfm @.500, can't remember exactly.
I guess I'll call the guy and tell him not to pick up my TFS 23's yet! This is causing major indecision on my part!!! I need close to 265 - 270cfm @ .500 lift for my combo to work, thats all I know right now and I know that my TFS heads wont flow that as they sit. More than half the machinists I've talked to told me to go with the fast burns though! I wonder if the Fast Burns will flow 266 @ .500 with 2.02 / 1.60 valves installed?
Just thought I'd add that the E-tec heads are basically Vortec heads, although similar to Fastburns, they're not as good. The E-tec looks like a rip off to me. They don't flow any better, and cost twice as much. Only advantage is they can handle more lift with the springs/clearancing issues of the Vortecs already solved. However for under $600 you can get Vortecs from Scoggin Dickey that have had the same done to them to handle .550 ish lift... Is aluminum worth nearly twice as much on a Vortec??? Not to me.
Seems like the best bet 4 u is 2 get AFRs, but I don't know if u wanna spend that kind of money.
I'm really suprised that CHP didn't include the FastBurns in their Goodwrench Quest test. Or any other test 4 that matter since GMPP claims 430HP. They tested several other heads except the FastBurns. It seems as if the mags r afraid 2 touch them.
Here are my thoughts on these heads considering I am working on them right now. I personally would not run them right out of the box considering they look like they need a valve job done and they could be cleaned up a little in the ports. Its amazing how lightweight the valves are. You can really tell the difference if you hold a stock valve in your other hand. The great thing about these heads is the raised runner intake port. You dont really notice it that much until you get a set of regular heads out beside it. The raised port does give it a straighter shot onto the back of valve. The combustion chamber also unshrouds the valves really well considering it is cut back almost to the stock 4" bore. I did cc the runners and chamber and they did come out to spec of 210cc and 62cc. I am doing some modification to the heads in terms of bowl work and slimming down the guides. I think these heads will work really well but I would recommend at least a valve job on them. Maybe I will take some pics with my crappy digital camera of the heads. Any questions let me know.
racer87
[This message has been edited by racer87 (edited November 15, 2001).]
Hey racer87, are you going to put 2.02/1.60's in them? Or have them flow benched? From what I've been reading, the Fast Burns dont flow all that well! GM recommended NOT porting the fast burns. If I get a set , I'm changing springs, valves (3 angled 2.02/1.60's) and I'll have them ported and polished. Then hopefully they will flow well.
I think I am going to leave the stock valve size considering these valves are extremely light weight. I think thats how they got away with using the smaller springs they come with. Don't buy the GM line of not porting them. Their "Cast Ported" claim is not very true. There is still casting flash in the heads and the usual lips down by the valve seat. At least on the set I got were like this. These are easily fixed with a grinder though. I doubt I will get them flowed. The drag strip will tell how good they are. By the way what manifold are you going to use? I assume the vortec tpi base. I am using the ramjet manifold with my set. I've got a lot of work to do on that to get it matched to the fastburn ports. I still think these heads will work well and am glad I bought them. Everyone I have talked to seems to think they are very good heads if thats any indication.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ray87Z: Just thought I'd add that the E-tec heads are basically Vortec heads, although similar to Fastburns, they're not as good. The E-tec looks like a rip off to me. They don't flow any better, and cost twice as much. Only advantage is they can handle more lift with the springs/clearancing issues of the Vortecs already solved. However for under $600 you can get Vortecs from Scoggin Dickey that have had the same done to them to handle .550 ish lift... Is aluminum worth nearly twice as much on a Vortec??? Not to me.
</font>
The E-Tec 170's ARE a screw job. I was talking about the 200's. I would bet my *** that they would produce more power than FastBurns. Did you guys check out that thread on the Sallee site? I hope they have improved the quality control since then.
Hey racer87, when do you think that you will have the fastburns, running down the track? Is the motor finished or close to being finished?
------------------
1991 Z-28 350 TPI, 700r4 with B&M shiftkit, 2400 stall, B&M Console Megashifter, 4th gen power seats, MSD6A, Blaster2 Coil, Holley 58mm TB, Ram-air, MSD 8.5 super conductor wires, Flowmaster catback, Crane rollers, march pulleys, and all free mods. (Currently in body shop getting fresh paint!!) I miss her! =(
This is my winter engine project so it wont be at the track until March. I have a lot of work to do on it. I still have a lot to figure out for the ramjet manifold to work. I bought it bare from gmpartsdirect.com along with the various other little parts to make it work. I like the way the manifold looks considering it is basically an LT1/miniram with a big plenum with an LS1 tb.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The E-tec looks like a rip off to me. They don't flow any better, and cost twice as much.</font>
Curious where you came up with them costing twice as much. According to my newest Jegs catalog. the Etecs are $1049 a pair while the fast burns are $559.99 each which totals $1119.98.
True but the 200 series E-tecs only flow 253cfm @.500 lift and 251cfm @ .600 lift. The intake runners are 10cc smaller than the fast burns and the combustion chamber is 2cc larger than the fast burns. As I stated earlier, you will lose .2 to 1 compression with the E-Tecs, compared to the Fast Burns. I have a contact at Edelbrock that I'm going to call today. We'll see what he says! I may end up going with the victor jr. heads if they will work. Now the Victors flow ALOT! (over 300cfm)
I was comparing the Etecs to the standard Vortec in that double the price comment, since all they are is Aluminum Vortecs with a couple tweaks.
It's really only at .500+ where the Etecs beat the stock Vortecs. Looks to me like the slight changes Edelbrock made hurt lower-lift numbers. Their exhaust improvements were fairly good though.
CHP's numbers, same flow bench, different dates though:
I have had the fast burn heads on my car for a while I origanaly used a home made tpi base but I have now changed to the SDPC TPI base. I would love to take it to a dyno and let you know what it is capeable of but my car was in a wreck and it is know getting repainted it will probably be around january fabuary before it is back on the road I got the heads from my uncle the truck he had them on had close to 600 horses when dynoed I will see if I can get a copy of the dyno sheet from him. He was using a 400 strocked out to a 436 I think and he used a carb not fuel injection I know this is not the same as a tpi motor but it will give you an idea of what they can do. When he got the heads the ports were ruff so he cleaned them up a little and I did need to have a valve job done on them.I do have som pics I will try to get them for you guys and post them up. Just so you know he took them off the truck when he got busted in a tech inspection he was racing in a class that did not alow aluminum heads.They only had 13 miles on them when I got them he is know running vortec heads I'll try to get a copy of the new dyno with them as well.
------------------
87gta 355 fastburn heads,slp headers,flowmaster exhaust, LT4 hot cam and a lot more
Some of it may have to do with the intake they test them with.
The Vortec head numbers that flow the 239 are with a performer RPM intake, If you flow test them sans intake the intake numbers will be lower, Just something to bear in mind.
a bit of food for though. This is what my Vortec heads flowed on the bench. Chamberd CC'ed at 62. 1.94/ 1.5 stock valves. at 28"
int ex e/i
My cam's an XE 274 with .487/.490 lift. that's all the number's i need.
Not a bad improvement over the stock heads. No more weak exhaust valve. should make some good power.
No need to run 1.6 rockers. heads cost me a total of 850, including heads, new guides, springs, bowl work, vavle jobs.
Came out quite nice.
My questioin is. if your running a long tube tuned port system, isn't that the type of number's you'd be looking for?
I just re-read the review of the ZZ430 engine I have. They need have the heads ported and polished to achieve 430hp. The article is in the April, 2001 issue of CarCraft.
I was gonna mention the CarCraft article about the port, polish and competition valve job. But those things were basically mentioned above and I'm not sure if the flow chart is before or after the port job.
But, I did receive a reply from a professional head shop (CFM Performance) that the FastBurns have good potential and they have 1 customer that made 400HP with a 212/.460 cam and another that made 675HP with a ported set, roller cam, 13:1 cr on a 406.
I've talked to 5 more machine shops this past week and talked to them about my combination. They all said that this motor should make at the least 450-500HP and 475-525ft lbs of torque at the crank!! I have decided to go with the Fast Burn heads. However to achieve these numbers, the heads will get a stage 3 package thrown at it which includes complete port and polish, bowl and seat work, comp 3 angle valve job, better guides and dual valve springs installed (.600)lift capable. If anyone is interested in info on the bottom end combo, just reply to this post and I'll fill you in!
Did you guys know that FastBurns are a casting copy of a set of ported LT-4 heads? I really don't think you could go wrong with either the E-Tec 200's OR the FastBurns. The FastBurns may just need more prep work.
Earl 87 GTA - did you ever get your fast burns together? How did it turn out? When I get mine, I'm having them ported, polished, 3 angle valve job, bowl and seat work, and upgrading the springs to handle my cam. They are also going to flow bench them. I'll post the numbers for flow in 28in of water. Did you have them flow benched after the work was done on them?
No my car is still down havent got it putt back together yet I pulled the motor out and Im painting every thing under the hood changing the car from red to blue somthing diffrent for a whilr Ill call the machine shop and see if he will flow test them if its cheap Ill break the heads off the car and have it done for the springs I used the hot cam kit and used the springs from the kit. If I get a chance this week end Ill take a few pics of every thing for you guys.
------------------
87gta 355 fastburn heads,slp headers,flowmaster exhaust, LT4 hot cam and a lot more
Earl87 - that would be cool! Cant wait to see them pics! It shouldnt cost that much to have them flow-benched. My machinist will do it for $20 for me cause he will be doing alot of work on them.
I used stock lenght push rods I thought abought going a little longer but changed my mind I have a few pics of the engine now but need some one to post them for me Ive never posted them on the bord before and my home page is down right now. I need to find a place for a new home page any sugestions would be great.
__________________ 87gta 355 fastburn heads,slp headers,flowmaster exhaust, LT4 hot cam and a lot more
hey guys
can someone tell me a good pair of heads for my305 tpi and if i get the edelbrock base and runers?
__________________ 87 Camaro Z28 Waiting for LS1/4L60E transplant. Tons of TPI parts for sale 2009 Malibu LT 2.4: The comfy daily driver www.GMInsidenews.com www.NJFBOA.org
depends on how much you want to spend and what you are trying to get out of them on a 305 I would just use a set of the high performance Vortec heads from SDPC or any of the other GM performace parts guys and then buy the SDPC base for vortec heads it is cast buy edlblock any whay I would then save the cash for the runners and get the SLP runners and port match all the tpi stuff or you could do the lt1 convertion and get a set of used l98 vett heads have a three angle valve jog done on them and port and polish them your self may have to have spring seats cut for bigger springs depending on cam hease are the sheap whays to go. The other whay is to get the fast burn heads or afr heads but with the fast burn you have to use the SDPC vortec base.It is rilly hard to say with out knowing how much cash you have to spend how much power you are trying to get and what cam you will be using.
__________________ 87gta 355 fastburn heads,slp headers,flowmaster exhaust, LT4 hot cam and a lot more
$400 for base. Ditch the Fast burn heads, buy the Edelbrock ETEC 200 heads. The ETEC 170's are modeled after the Standard Vortec head with better exhaust flow. The ETEC 200's are a modified version of the Fast Burn heads but with higher flow. Cost is the same.
__________________ '87 IROC soon to be Cherry Red Metallic
T-Tops
383ci
Forged crank, Forged 6" H-beam rods, KB pistons 10:1 CR
AFR 190 aluminum heads
Weiand Stealth
Holley 770 Street Avenger Vacuum Secondary Carb
CompCams XE 274 cam, Pro Magnum steel roller tipped rockers
Mufflex 4" exhaust with dual tips
Hooker Super Comp headers with custom y-pipe
MSD 6AL with ProBillet Street Destributor
Hotchkis LCA's, Adj Panhard rod, Springs, Edelbrock Torque arm, Jegster SFC's, HP Motorsports 3-point Strut tower brace, Spohn LCA relocator brackets, PowerStop cross drilled brake rotors
3.70 geared 7.75" 9-Bolt Borg-Warner
TCI StreetFighter 700R4
2500 RPM TCI BreakAway Torque Converter
ASCD Fiberglass SS hood
91-92 Z28 High Rise Spoiler
17" ROH wheels with 255/45/17 Falken ZE 502's
GM recommended NOT porting the fast burns. If I get a set , I'm changing springs, valves (3 angled 2.02/1.60's) and I'll have them ported and polished. Then hopefully they will flow well. 
