Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
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Man I read alot of threads on here about how KYB is good. I installed the GR2's shocks and struts last summer. There isn't even 20,000 miles on them and they are completely shot. This is under normal street driving conditions.
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They're built so thin I'm not suprised.
Take a look at how thick Bilstien made the front strut and you'll understand why they have a lifetime warrenty. I LOVE my Bilstiens. It's been over 4 years with winters and still as stiff as the day I got em. Expensive, yes, but well worth not having to worry about how long they'll last.
Third gen struts aren't the only application KYB's suck on. I had a set that would not wear out, but they beat me to death all the time. Swapped for Bilsteins, 100% glad I did.
Originally posted by LeftTurn1LE Man I read alot of threads on here about how KYB is good. I installed the GR2's shocks and struts last summer. There isn't even 20,000 miles on them and they are completely shot. This is under normal street driving conditions.
if you did some research on them here you'd see for the last few years i've been telling people this. KYB is one of the worst i've ever used considering their cost. cheap $20 gabriels last longer...
I am also very happy with the Bilsteins. I bought them off the 'net, and they have performed perfectly for 3 years of abuse. If you don't like how they are set up, you can have them revalved, but that requires disassembly and re-charging the nitrogen. You get what you pay for.
yes the bilstein adjustables use a billet strut housing and the ones i've seen retail for $1200 a pair. with the warranty bilstein offers as well as the quality of the part you can't go wrong. if i could run bilsteins on the front again i would, currently using qa1 12 way billets which work just as well fortunately.
Originally posted by Kandied91z yes the bilstein adjustables use a billet strut housing and the ones i've seen retail for $1200 a pair. with the warranty bilstein offers as well as the quality of the part you can't go wrong. if i could run bilsteins on the front again i would, currently using qa1 12 way billets which work just as well fortunately.
yea... and id buy the QA1 12way billets...... if i knew how to mount them to my car without going to a airsuspension setup.
if you could get ahold of them they bolt up like normal only they are slightly shorter so you would need to run a similar spring style like a sportline.....i still don't understand why qa1 won't release them but everyone i've spoken with at airride said they had a lock on them for the next year.
Originally posted by Kandied91z yes the bilstein adjustables use a billet strut housing and the ones i've seen retail for $1200 a pair. with the warranty bilstein offers as well as the quality of the part you can't go wrong. if i could run bilsteins on the front again i would, currently using qa1 12 way billets which work just as well fortunately.
$1200!!!!!
Only a pair of heads is worth that much. NEVER would I drop that much on front struts. . .
. . unless of course I did it for a living (road racing or something).
I don't think I could ever understand how someone would drop that much on struts alone for a daily driver.
your absolutely right....which is why the standard hd or sport bilsteins are much more reasonable around 100 a piece. however those who want the best and are paying that sort of high amount probably aren't putting them on a daily driver.
kyb does serve the purpose, i've personally never seen or had good luck with them lasting however for the few sets i've had on the various vehicles. i've never cared for how they perform either as they seem quite comparable to much cheapier struts that last just as long.
Originally posted by Kandied91z your absolutely right....which is why the standard hd or sport bilsteins are much more reasonable around 100 a piece. however those who want the best and are paying that sort of high amount probably aren't putting them on a daily driver.
kyb does serve the purpose, i've personally never seen or had good luck with them lasting however for the few sets i've had on the various vehicles. i've never cared for how they perform either as they seem quite comparable to much cheapier struts that last just as long.
Ahhhh. . . I see now.
So with the Pro-kit with 17" IROC's and BFG KDWS' which Bilsteins do you suggest, the HD's or the Sports? I'm leaning towards the HD's since they'll give me more comfort.
Originally posted by Gunny Highway Ahhhh. . . I see now.
So with the Pro-kit with 17" IROC's and BFG KDWS' which Bilsteins do you suggest, the HD's or the Sports? I'm leaning towards the HD's since they'll give me more comfort.
Originally posted by Gunny Highway Ahhhh. . . I see now.
So with the Pro-kit with 17" IROC's and BFG KDWS' which Bilsteins do you suggest, the HD's or the Sports? I'm leaning towards the HD's since they'll give me more comfort.
Just for the people who are checking this.... THe front struts for the HD and Sports are exactly the same. They carrier the same part number, and per my conversation with bilstein NA, they are the same. The rears are diffrent. Valving is pretty much the same, but the rear shocks are shorter, in the sport kit.
I've had KYB struts on the front of my car, for two years, and they came off my previous car having been on their for a year. And I DON'T drive it like a grandma. I love them.
Originally posted by LT1guy I have used KYBs a few times on various cars, and never had a problem with quality or ride. They are far better than what came on our cars new!
i suppose if your comparing v6 or 4 cylinder models....
Originally posted by Kandied91z i suppose if your comparing v6 or 4 cylinder models....
No, I'm comparing to the junk GM installed on all the third and fourth gens, excluding the few models that got Konis (1LEs) or Bilsteins (SS). I didn't say that everybody should go throw away their billet unobtainium $1200 struts to buy $50 KYBs, just that they aren't as bad as people are making them out to be. In my experience they have been better than your typical parts store Gabriel/Monroe etc replacements, and they're usually cheaper too. In fact, when I worked at Year One I got to see cutaways and disassembled examples of several struts and shocks (KYB, Koni, Bilstein, and a few others), and from that standpoint the quality of the components used wasn't much different...in fact, the KYBs looked better in some cases, and at least equal in others. Granted, this wasn't a test of their feel, just component quality, and I know some of the more expensive struts may be valved better, but for someone looking for good replacements, who doesn't need to have the most expensive part to fulfill his ego (not picking on anybody in particular, just making a statement), they'll do fine. We sold tons of them at Year One and another place I worked (Mustangs Unlimited), and no one ever complained about them. I never saw one come back defective either. If you're going road racing there are better choices, but for the average high performance daily driver they're fine.
Originally posted by LeftTurn1LE Man I read alot of threads on here about how KYB is good. I installed the GR2's shocks and struts last summer. There isn't even 20,000 miles on them and they are completely shot. This is under normal street driving conditions.
One thought, what was your cars mileage when you replaced them? What did you do with your stock springs? Replace them or not?
Quote:
Originally posted by Kandied91z if you did some research on them here you'd see for the last few years i've been telling people this. KYB is one of the worst i've ever used considering their cost. cheap $20 gabriels last longer...
I have had just about every other average type strut on my car and only the KYBs have lasted. Every other set has blown out the cylinders, including the Gabriels & Monroes...I went thru one set of struts a year (each diff manufactures) for a good 5 years till I got the KYBs...They have been on the car...shocks and struts...since Jan 2002...have well over 20,000 miles...have not had a single issue. Just took the car to Little Talladega road track & the car handled beautifully! The car was just throughly checked out at an alignment shop a few weeks back he said all my equipment was in perfect shape!
One thing to note...I got an Eibach prokit at the same time the KYBs went on. So if people are replacing the shocks/struts w/o replacing the springs...maybe its the worn out springs allowing to much harsh up and down travel ending the KYBs life prematurely. Just think if you force an increased amount of abrupt up and down motion on any hydralic, you are going to shorten its life. Take putting a lower rated shock on the rear hatch then its designed to take...its not going hold up the hatch...it will wear out sooner with the increased amount of work it was not designed for. Heck with worn springs, they are not going to cusion the shock/strut and it will have more stress adn work placed on it then it was designed for.
Just a thought...
Quote:
Originally posted by Kandied91z i suppose if your comparing v6 or 4 cylinder models....
If you mean because of weight? My car weighs more then the typically V-8 3rd gen...3555lbs...obviously this weight diff has not hurt the struts or shocks at all in my case!
__________________ "I'm just a girl..." (No Doubt) "Love me or hate me, it's still an obsession. If you love me then Thank you, if you hate me then **** you!" (Lady Sovereign) 1987 Red & Black Firebird: "RAIF" WEBSITE: www.redraif.com (Yes... STILL in pieces from an engine bay paint makeover!) OTHER CARS’ WEBSITES:1982 Trans AM / 1990 Chevy Dually / 1976 Scout II / 1987 Nissan Pulsar / 1984 Indy Fiero Tact- n . Acute sensitivity to what is proper and appropriate in dealing with others, including the ability to speak or act without offending.
I put a set of the $16 KYB shocks on the back of my sport coupe, along with my used IROC springs that I had left over after my Jamex spring swap. I put close to 40k miles on that car after the shock swap and I was as happy as a clam. The rear end stayed planted better (and rode better) than my IROC did with the stock bilsteins and the exact same springs. When I finally got rid of the car, the rear suspension still worked like new.
I have had GR2's for probably close to 65K and for the money they are ok. the car rides alright on 255/16 kuhmo's. for high speed handling this is really not the best combo. for regular street driving they are pretty good though. when I replace them soon, I will get the bilstien's . I have them on my 2k SS and they do offer quite a bit more control for an 'off the shelf' shock.(non-revalve or adj) I have to think the AGX's(KYB) would be lame though. I've never heard a credible source say anything good about them. I guess what I'm saying is, if you drive fast, do yourself a favor and get a high quality shock. not just to go faster, but safer.
Soap box:
People on this board build cars to go fast, but most guys seem to skimp on the important things =>handing , and brakes. a street car with alot of hp, with crappy brakes and handling is dangerous, let alone you put others in harms way. *Drag racers ignore this comment*
*translation- if you have GR2's and 16" wheels on stock suspension, please don't tell us all how bitch'in your car handles- these cars take alittle more work than that, not a whole lot, but more to make them on par with modern cars:lala:
__________________ 88 Grey 5.7 IROC -Z
350, slp 1-3/4, Hot cam, Vortec head, AZSM large tube runners, holley 52mm,24LB SVO,Spohn Subs,ASP pulley, BMR STB,TDS wonderbar, 36mm 1LE, BEAR claw sport system, full MSD,wires, coil, 6AL, Pro Built ,Act 2200 stall - Viper Pearl grey metalic paint, Bilstien HD/Sports, pro-kit, spohn steel strut mounts, adj PHB, Intro GT,BFG KDW-255/285- looking for a super ram
2000 NMB SS, Full SLP, Hard top, chrome ZR-1's,6spd, full BMR, Global west upper control arms, direct flow lid,air hog, msd, LS6 maf, Hawk pads, koni yellows, earl's lines, bridgestone RE750's
Everything is relative to what you have experienced, Handles bitch'in compared to what? Thirdgens are great low speed handlers (under 100) But I hate to admit it , the newer cars just will plain out handle them at high speeds. My ss will run circles arround my thirdgen over 100, have had it well into a buck fify and it rode smooth a glass, slowed very comfortably, never felt " on the edge" my sister has a 05' nissan S-ER that frankly is on par with my Iroc. The Iroc is comparably spooky over 110, and yes my car is pretty well maintained. Seriously C5-M3 AMG these cars handle soo much better at high speeds there is no comparison. Now I know a thirdgen can be built to be competitive in the Silerstate road race. but not with cheap shocks, big tires, and stiff springs. I'm not trying to knock thirdgen's either, I really like mine, just be realistic.
__________________ 88 Grey 5.7 IROC -Z
350, slp 1-3/4, Hot cam, Vortec head, AZSM large tube runners, holley 52mm,24LB SVO,Spohn Subs,ASP pulley, BMR STB,TDS wonderbar, 36mm 1LE, BEAR claw sport system, full MSD,wires, coil, 6AL, Pro Built ,Act 2200 stall - Viper Pearl grey metalic paint, Bilstien HD/Sports, pro-kit, spohn steel strut mounts, adj PHB, Intro GT,BFG KDW-255/285- looking for a super ram
2000 NMB SS, Full SLP, Hard top, chrome ZR-1's,6spd, full BMR, Global west upper control arms, direct flow lid,air hog, msd, LS6 maf, Hawk pads, koni yellows, earl's lines, bridgestone RE750's
Originally posted by Kennerz Everything is relative to what you have experienced, Handles bitch'in compared to what? Thirdgens are great low speed handlers (under 100) But I hate to admit it , the newer cars just will plain out handle them at high speeds. My ss will run circles arround my thirdgen over 100, have had it well into a buck fify and it rode smooth a glass, slowed very comfortably, never felt " on the edge" my sister has a 05' nissan S-ER that frankly is on par with my Iroc. The Iroc is comparably spooky over 110, and yes my car is pretty well maintained. Seriously C5-M3 AMG these cars handle soo much better at high speeds there is no comparison. Now I know a thirdgen can be built to be competitive in the Silerstate road race. but not with cheap shocks, big tires, and stiff springs. I'm not trying to knock thirdgen's either, I really like mine, just be realistic.
keep in mind though most thirdgens suspension is 12-22 years old. so its all in perspective, a brand new iroc could of outhandled or kept up to todays cars.
Originally posted by Kennerz Everything is relative to what you have experienced, Handles bitch'in compared to what? Thirdgens are great low speed handlers (under 100) But I hate to admit it , the newer cars just will plain out handle them at high speeds. My ss will run circles arround my thirdgen over 100, have had it well into a buck fify and it rode smooth a glass, slowed very comfortably, never felt " on the edge" my sister has a 05' nissan S-ER that frankly is on par with my Iroc. The Iroc is comparably spooky over 110, and yes my car is pretty well maintained. Seriously C5-M3 AMG these cars handle soo much better at high speeds there is no comparison. Now I know a thirdgen can be built to be competitive in the Silerstate road race. but not with cheap shocks, big tires, and stiff springs. I'm not trying to knock thirdgen's either, I really like mine, just be realistic.
Not picking on you or anything, but who gives a sh*t how well a street car handles over 100mph? Even a performance car. At those speeds on a public highway (not sure where else you could go 150), you're not only guaranteeing your own death if something goes wrong, but likely someone else's too. I'm all for Darwinism, but you cross the line when you endanger someone else. Still though, for argument's sake, most road racers will tell you that they would far prefer a properly prepped third gen (ie no worn out original parts, with plenty of aftermarket upgrades) to a similarly prepped fourth. I have owned both, and driven both, and would agree.
Getting back to the point, KYBs are good quality replacement struts; while many good handling cars have them, no one is saying you're going to set the track record at Road Atlanta with them (though big tires and stiff springs are a necessity!)
In So Cal the flow of traffic is usually 75~85 MPH, If you have ever driven to las vegas, people ave 90~95. What I'm saying is At 90MPH a thridgen is close to it's handling limits. Yes they will go faster but not comfortably. I'm not for putting other at risk as well. But if you read what I said, it takes a heavily modded thirdgen to be a road race car, and I'm sure it could be very capable. Im Sorry, 245R 16 tires and KYB's don't give you a M3 or C5 - I'm saying a 4thgen with 98~02 with the factory errors corrected (Right shocks,sway bars is a very competent handler) I've owned my Iroc almost since new. It has the factory 4 wheel disc(now baer) the 34mm/22mm sways and Bilstien from the factory. the front will wash out if you push it too hard. I replaced the worn factory Bilst. with kyb and lost handling. I can come into a turn way harder with the SS and the front will stick ( Has alot to do with the upper control arms/alignment/and sway bar) If you have never driven a LS1 with right suspension mods, you can't make the statement tha 4thgen's don't handle. Again there are way more LS1's (prepared) at the SCCA events out here. Sam strano uses a 98 Z28. he's won with a thirdgen, but now wins with a 4th. Ask him if any of you don't believe me, he is a suspension expert on this board and LS1tech. I'm not knockin 3rd gens. stock 4th gens have crappy handling for sure, but to correct your figure a SLP SS with the Bilstien suspension option pulled .92 on the skid pad. that's what I have with additional suspension mods. this thing does handle 'Bitch'in" but still gets out handled by a 911 turbo, turning at speed. ( one of the only cars I ever was beat by and only on a high speed sweeper with expansion joints, that car had way more high speed stability)
Well considering the average person will be driving over 100 in the real world under normal driving conditions...not weaving or racing on curvey roads. These cars are not designed to go faster then that in stock form, with stock suspension. The fact is if someone is going to be driving over 100 it should only be done in controlled environments (organized race events). At that point the cars should have a completely redone suspension utilizing todays technology. But for the record my car has been at or a bit over 100 with "bad alignment" on a bad OH hwy and had no problem keeping up and handling on par with a couple of 4th gens. Its been on a road race course and handled as well as the similarly equipt 4th gens. Would have done a skidpad test, but rain ended the trip early. Car handled great in the rain on the track as well.
As far as new cars...Well considering most of todays cars have benifited from new technology. The suspension of a car built in the 80s can't compare to the 00s because of the tech advancements, and the time for parts degrading. So you have to take the new technology and apply it to the 3rd gen before you can truely compare. Most cars from the factory now come with lower stances, stiffer springs, wider more preformance oriented tires, larger rims, bushings have come light years...
All that has to be considered.
The funny thing...when comparing handling...I have heard that the rack and pinion steering when racing can't compare to the old perfomance steering box. So in that regard the 3rd has the 4th in a courner. The rearends are the same. Just a thought.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kennerz *translation- if you have GR2's and 16" wheels on stock suspension, please don't tell us all how bitch'in your car handles- these cars take alittle more work than that, not a whole lot, but more to make them on par with modern cars:lala:
This is on par with what I was saying above. We have to modernize then to compete with new technology.
But got the whole package on mine. Check it out if you want...the link to my handling site is in my sig!
__________________ "I'm just a girl..." (No Doubt) "Love me or hate me, it's still an obsession. If you love me then Thank you, if you hate me then **** you!" (Lady Sovereign) 1987 Red & Black Firebird: "RAIF" WEBSITE: www.redraif.com (Yes... STILL in pieces from an engine bay paint makeover!) OTHER CARS’ WEBSITES:1982 Trans AM / 1990 Chevy Dually / 1976 Scout II / 1987 Nissan Pulsar / 1984 Indy Fiero Tact- n . Acute sensitivity to what is proper and appropriate in dealing with others, including the ability to speak or act without offending.
Hmm - at 100mph 3rd gens are at handling limits? I had an 88GTA that was BONE STOCK (well, as stock as a ws-6 is) and I had it at 140 on a deserted 2 lane road. Handled beautifully. I was turning about 4000rpm (auto tranny, 5.7L) and it didn't feel loose or scary at all. This was NOT exceptionally smooth road either, Just a nice 5 mile stretch where you could see, and let the car run. I think it had about 66,000 miles on it at the time. Now I didn't try and take any 40mph curves at that speed, but I did move it around some and it stuck like glue and didn't feel the least bit unsteady. So I tend to agree with those here that if your suspension has UTD parts on it, 3rd gens will run really well. After all, they WERE designed to be road cars!
Originally posted by LT1guy No, I'm comparing to the junk GM installed on all the third and fourth gens, excluding the few models that got Konis (1LEs) or Bilsteins (SS).
my sister's 98 fireturd has bilsteins (definitely not an SS) and many gm trucks had them also
I'm no suspension expert or anything, but I've read that the average MacPherson strut will last about 35K miles. I cannot say I've owned a strut that has lasted longer than that. I fully expect to be rebuilding/replacing the struts on my cars every 35k miles or so, regardless of the brand. Of course alot of variables (valving, build quality, ride height, spring rates, usage, etc, etc) play into how long they will last, 35k miles is no definate answer. But I think its safe to say that you cannot expect any MacPherson strut setup to last forever. These things do wear out. This is why I prefer units that are rebuildable, or designed stronger than the OEM replacements. I think for the price, you cant really complain about KYB's. Like others have said, you get what you pay for. Sorry!
And about the high speed stability thing, I know what you guys mean. The stock setup feels like its floating at higher speeds. Just modify the suspension accordingly and you can keep the car stable at higher speeds (if that is your desire). My setup feels very stable at 140mph, not sure about higher than that. No floating whatsoever and response is just as good as going 60mph.
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Last edited by CrazyHawaiian; 11-24-2004 at 12:43 AM.
Originally posted by Kandied91z i have to agree with you about the longevity... however out of all the struts i've used kyb were the worst. the $35 gabriels were much nicer.
just opinion though.
Kind of crazy, but all the others (low end) i have bought have only lasted less then 10,000 mile before they blew a seal & failed. Go figure!
not crazy as the same with me... however at half the price or less for the cheaper which last just as long and work better it's worth it. in the end if you really care you'll save up for the better pieces anyhow, world of difference.
i really doubt handling is all based on shocks/struts, seems like thats the way this thread is leading
when you add in sway bars, springs, bushings, tires, SFC, panhard bars, LCA's you have a completely different feel
shocks/struts were just made to absorb bumps.. which my KYB's do a good job of
but what makes my car handle "bitchin" are my thicker sway bars to control body roll, poly bushings, sportline springs, LCA's, adj panhard bar, good tires and SFC's along with a STB.
when you add all these in, even mediocre shocks/struts will do, my car corners like its on rails and i know the shocks only have about 10% to do with that if not less. if im going in a straight line and hit a pot hole and spill a drink, yeah im going to complain about my shocks sucking.
