dirtscooter

This thread died down a few weeks back and you have probably done whatever you were going to do by now but I just now noticed the thread and read it from the begining..
My first instinct would have been to check the depth of your pistons in the block at TDC, and if sitting as much as .024 or more deep, then to have the deck milled to near zero. That could make a world of difference in intake fitment. It seems odd that your intake missed as far as it sounds, and that the intake bolts still lined up enough to install without aggrivation. But if that were the case I imagine your intake to head port window alignment must have been off a lot also. my 2cents worth...

trbo355

Ive got some input on Procomp SBC heads that everyone should know. So far, two of the Procomp heads on different local vehicles have cracked the heads down inside the machined recess for the center head bolt hole. It seems the casting is paper thin right there and the stress of torquing them down is cracking them into the water jacket which milkshakes the oil.
We have fixed the heads by tig welding and remachining that spot higher up to get a little wall thickness so they HOPEFULLY wont crack again.
The fitment of the heads to the dowels, valve spring shims sticking out in the way of the head bolts and questionable flow numbers have been something a guy could live with for the money but now that ive seen casting failures, they truly ARE JUNK!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Cool..

I've got a few procomp parts that seem ok. I wouldn't touch the heads with a 10 foot pole. Seems like a fools choice.

Whats the total bill for your customer, after purchase, then removing them and having to have them welded up and machined?

-- Joe

jag327

Can you post some pics of the heads before and after the repair I have few local machine shops like to see the pics if you can. They never seen this problem with them.

Most of the problems I seen my self a few spring height off a little and people install to long intake bolts in the middle hitting the push rods, small block 2 pair where the push rod rub would only the middle easy fix.The wrong intake gasket for 23 degree intake, the wrong push rod size all must be check.
I have personal experience with about 24 procomp sets big and small block heads chevy with in 2 years now helping friends install them on a few motors. And they are only going buy what the see at the track not some much as what they read about them on line and what the local shops dyno's. testing them on a few motors.

Pro comp heads is best to buy them bear unless you no the shop well that's rebuilding them.
The heads are marking very good power and getting good 1/4 times in MD at some of the local tracks. No matter what brand heads they are all should be check out be a good machine shop some one you trust.

I thank if some one post a forum - problem with heads all brands type you see other makes problem to, I seen personally top name brand heads come to shop where they had to do a lot of relining valve seats off spring height off ports size not matching.

I personally have 2 set no problems, I have a 372 mopar motor with a set of afr heads they had to be line up intake would not match the runners the heads was off a little the block deck height was find - the heads shaved down a little to match up the intake runner's to the intake.

I blown the radiator hose off this summer racing I had 2 more runs no water in the motor temp reaching 260 man the heads work great no cracking or warping I shift at 7500 rpm, and make over 500 hp with a little 327 the only work to the heads was on the exhaust side. I'm running 58cc CNC but now are 54cc chambers.

"O" the only thing I no about head bolts hitting valve spring seats is - the washer for the bolt that was in the middle of the heads, the washer was grinded down on both sides it was only 1 washer for each head in the middle for the small block chevy. I also had the something on a few other makes to.
If you check the net there is about 5 hp magazines give them good right up's.

I no few guy's that run the heads on big blocks man 9s 8s in the 1/4 mile.
My close friend runs Vega gt 72 350 chevy bored 40, 410 gearing he runs procomp heads and the single plane intake - his 1/4 times 10:20 to 10:18 all day long easy 9 sec car plus he drive it on the street.

I no how hard it is for some people here in thirgen - to find other people running the heads and having no problems. When I have 1st post my personel experience I got jump on - I got so many emails from other people around the world who is racing the heads from boats, drag racing, to mud puller's. And for me to post my findings in a few other forums where you can be free to say good or bad about any high performance parts.

From what I learn the key to these heads - is the machine shop that's set them up they must no heads in side and out. Not some just proclaiming they super head builders. And you must no your valve to pistons clearance.

There's guy local, has a 400 chevy block rebuild motor look good all new parts powder paint parts on the motor. He had heating problems, was told the heads was junk I would not run that sh-t on my motor, buy a forum on line should I say who... But come to find out the shop that build the motor used the wrong head gasket steam holes was block off. He went and bought a set off new heads sold his motor cycle for $4600.00 to pay for them Dart Pro heads paid a total $1800.00 for them and to have the motor pulled and check a extra $1000.00. When the heads was pulled that what they found the wrong gasket he was **** off. He kelp the procomp heads on the motor the car runs 10:40s in the 1/4 a 3rd gen camaro he's a memeber here. The dart pro he sold on ebay to get some of his money back.

trbo355

I dont have any pix and my buddy who owns the heads already reinstalled it. Were running turbos and the head gaskets dont live unless things are torqued nice and snug at 85 ft lbs. Apparently thats when the weak link is found.

Its always the center head bolt recess that cracks on both of the units that failed. All i did was TIG the whole counterbore flush with the rest of the head then the machinist remachines it for the proper angle but is leaving it higher to gain some extra wall thickness. There are plenty of threads on the head stud to accomogate the higher nut position.

jag327

If your using ARP bolts there is 2 torque setting 1 oil and 1 moly lube it's a must to follow there specs. I just got off the phone Precision Engine they build some very high dollar motor, Blowers twin turbo's jet motor, They never had any heads center bolt cracking do to torque specs on 14.1 piston motors 75 pounds, blower motor 75 pounds twin turbo motor 75 pounds-the max is 80 pounds for has shop. The exhaust ears should not go over 80 pounds they can crack. Stock torque is 65 pounds. It sound like about the bolt was just bought to short for the tall deck type heads never head any problems only shaving down the side of the washer so nut or bolt can fit.

Arp recommends 70 to 80 on there head bolts from the tech line.

My Pops and his brother's use to race back in the 40s 50s 60s and little in the 70s. Me I starting in the 70s my brothers started in the 60s. Man that was some very good times 13sec 12sec 11sec 10sec car could make some good money back then.

A lot of people I no now money is low but still love the sound of the car hitting cams gas smelling tires burning and trying to stay in the game. I have very well to do friends who started looking in to some of less costly parts.

My heads on all my motors are set 72 pounds.

Man you could have bad set of heads to.

At 1st had I had set AFR head 195 to go on the 327 all I was looking for was a little over 400 hp some friend told me about procomp a few years ago and for me to talk - to some of the guy that's running them check there motor set up and time sheets at the local tracks we have 3 drag race tracks. Man the cheaper heads was pulling some fast cars. So I sold my of AFR and bought 2 sets of procomp sbc they came with valves and springs at $535.00 a set. I pull the stuff out had them check, every thing check ok went back with all manly valves springs retainers.

A lot of the problems I learn with the heads is how they are set up and how they are install.

Any 1 in MD local we have this coming 11/ 6 and 7 world cup finals import vs domestic at Budds Creek

http://www.importvsdomestic.com/

trbo355

Ok i quizzed my Buddy Jeff of Cassell Engines and the straight scoop is the early version Pro Comps were the ones with the problems. The newer ones are easily identified by their much better revised port shapes and the overall quality seems to have gone way up.
He also said that Patriot heads are the exact same thing. Had a Pro comp and a Patriot side by side on the bench and even the part number was the same except for "PC" written before the P/N on the Pro Comps. Patriots heads are thought to be made by Alabama cylinder heads but most likely the castings are also overseas and Alabama simply assembles them. The do seem to use high quality parts though and the overall product looks to be better than the Pro Comp brand based on the parts used.

Patriot heads have a pretty good reputation so im betting the new Pro Comps are probably just fine to use these days. Patriot SBC heads used to vary from Pro Comp in the fact you could order 72cc chambers but now Pro Comp offers them too. Plus Patriot has a CNC bowl blend for an additional 100 bucks and now Pro Comp does too.

Thats the facts as i was told and believe this all to be accurate. Im 99% sure neither brand is actually cast in the states.

jag327

That's true, I will be at Budds Creek. I will try to have some kinda pole taken how many people use any Procomp parts "O" another company parts are showing up in a lot cars to cheap pricing wysco.com. Car I had and sold V8 vega 72 350 bored 40 over, 455 buick stage 1, 72 chevelle 454, 65 impala 327 small block the car run low 11s, 2 chevy S10 all 350s, Pontiac Tempiest 61, GTO 1968 10sec car, twin turbo charger 97 honda prelude, Few other I for got.

Car's I have now 68 belvedere 440 30 over motor runs low 10s, 82 camaro 327 bored 30 over best time 11:18
84 mazda rx7 with 372 mopar motor dana rear 727 trany best time 9:42, toyota celica gt i use to race.

check out cardomain.com
I have to up date the site.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/320056...g-county-md-us

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHsC_SvUAxs

cuisinartvette

LOL

Yep...Things like valve seats not being conencentric, guides not installed straight clearanced, etc usually rear their heads after its been together awhile. Bet 9 out of 10 consumers never check anything its ripped out of the box drolled on then bolted on, big mistake. For $600-$800 if you got no problems you beat the odds, if ya do then can you expect much for that kind of money.

I understand the heads have improved but honestly you couldnt give me a pair of Chinese made heads rockers etc ..They are CHEAP for a reason!!


ANY aftermarket part check, measure, inspect no matter what, thats standard fare for hot rodding. Leave it to chance and you may be the one bitching about your new brand XXX pos part breaking.

Not brand bashing that wouldnt be fair just saying check out whatever it is you buy before you stick it on the car. Better to spend a few bux with a machinist to find any potential problems then to tear a part off or replace a motor due to failure.

Or just save up and buy a real nice piece and do it once.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Now that's some damn good advice... HEY RON!

trbo355

I have a nice shiny brand new set of Patriot 190 cc heads here and they are going straight to the machine shop for a teardown and inspection before they go on the car. Ill let you guys know what we find, if anything.
They DO look better than earlier versions and i also noticed they have 1.25 dia. springs instead of the 1.55 ones which get the damn spring seat out of the way of the head bolt access. They are machined for bigger springs if someone wanted to run them. Remember, these are Patriots not Pro Comps but at 795.00 a pair, they are the same price so lets see what we get for our money!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Report back!!! I hate when people do this and never tell us the result. Can't wait to hear what they say.

jag327

That's a good thing to do, My heads was check 1st.

My heads been on the car for all most 2 years. Shifting sometimes at 7500
with no oil burning. My best time is 11:18 with saginaw 4 speed in it now, I had a M22 intall but pull it for the 1st gear the saginaw has in it.

I went to the import vs american car drag race at Budds Creek I look at about 70 cars motor and found 19 was running procomp heads mind you I did not look at all the car motors and talk to a few guys most bought the heads with out valve and springs. And all most just about every 1 met and talk to had some kinda procomp part on there motors. And there was a few call them junk parts but when they seen some of times, the cars was running 1 guy said no way all motor 383 9:40 67 chevelle with procomp heads until we just walk over to the driver of the car and ask him - he said funny I get this all the time. His motor revs to 8500 and been running over 1.5 years.

trbo355

Ha ha i promise to report back. I know you cant tell much by just looking at them but the quality looks darn good with nice retainers and lots of lube on the valve stems. At least they APPEAR to care!

trbo355

Here are some pix.

trbo355

More pix. Not a bad looking head but the CNC blending for an additional 100 bucks is a joke. Buy the cheaper 795.00 ones and do a better job yourself in 10 minutes. They have blue positive seals on them as can be seen in the close up pix.

cuisinartvette

The AFR ports are a little different in shape than the traditional sbc port they wont match up "perfect" as they taper in some and have a more rounded corner. Wont hurt anything but if you want to match it you can.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yep, AFR has about 4,000 warnings saying don't gasket match the intake until you trace the port on the head.

-- Joe

jag327

There was to much of a gap the gasket/intake would not seal on 1 side, Heads was mild down. To match the intake the heads was off a little - seating the intake - intake was find only fix was on the heads. For the price I paid for them no add work should be needed. Oil sating on the conner of the of heads had to be smooth out to flow better back down in the engine block.

But things happen - Propcomp a let of things going wrong with there heads mostly was do to cheap parts install, wrong gaskets, intake bolts in the middle both side to long hitting the push rods this was happing a lot busting rock arms valves.
heads needed to be clean up on ports some - and some was clean needed no port work and flowed good numbers.

Most people bolt and go or make something work not noing something maybe worng always good to have a good shop who no's what they are doing to check the heads if some can afford to no matter what brand they are.

You do get some bad so call USA parts that are bad when there leave there warehouse.

these are few of the shops I no well for years.
In the State of MD.

http://autofabcart.net/

Supercar, Automotoive
Shop - Donald Durham witch is Malcolm Durham brother - 4750 Baltimore Ave yattsville MD. 20750 "O" for more info just type in Malcolm Durham

http://www.precision-engine.com/

Eagle223usa

I don't own a set of Pro Comps but did help a buddy install his 383 into his truck with Pro Comp aluminum heads on it. As we were putting the accesories on the front 2 of the holes stripped out really easily. I was installing the headers and one of the header bolts stripped out under dang near finger pressure. His machinist who did some of the assembly told him that the casting wasn't hard enough. I told him we should hve heli coiled all the external threads just to be safe , while the engine was still on the stand. The engine does run fine though. He only has about 400 miles on it so far. I decided to rework my 083's until I could afford a quality aluminum head. Just an observation.

cuisinartvette

Depending on how much the heads were milled down you may need to do the intake to suit....was the block decked too? That can all affect fit. I know on mine I shaved them (non afr, angle mill) a LOT, had to do the intake too and use a thick gasket to make it seal. Typical hot rodding stufff I guess, nothign "bolts on" does it? lol

jag327

Yes deck hgt find. Heads was off even you lay them flat 1 was higher than the other. But all that was dun 3 years ago it's on the motor a mopar 372.

At that time paid $2200.00 total cost $2800.00 after the machine work. Could not send them back because I had them for a few months they went out of warranty.

I'm happy with afr heads but not the money I paid for them.
I'm happy with the procomp heads only work was to them was the exhaust ports the heads are the CNC 58cc they are shaved to 54cc, at that time I paid $535.00 with valves and springs 2 sets, The machine shop told me I had very good parts install but I had them change to manly valves and springs. I still have the parts that came with the heads.

Total cost with the heads manley parts and to shaved the heads exhaust ports $900.00

The other set no work dun to them they went on a 350 bored 40 chevy S10 tpi set up I sold the truck last years - the guy is running 10s now.

The I have with the heads install is a 82 camaro with 327 small block.
Next year may keep it as a show street car and tune it down a little.
And finish the body work.

trbo355

Dropped the heads off at the machine shop this morning and compared them to a Pro Comp 210 cc head. One thing with the Patriots i noticed is the exhaust port is raised .080 yet the bolt pattern is still in the stock location which may cause sealing issues with certain header brands.

gtanut

i had a set of brodix heads that 3 of the exhaust bolt holes stripped with very little pressure applied so it can happen to any head

cuisinartvette

Using antiseize on aluminum heads really helps just remember it can change the torque reading. Sure you know already just tossing it out there in case a person thats new to wrenching out there didnt know.

trbo355

Got the heads back and the machinist said they looked pretty good with a nice valve job that sealed fine. They had a 4 angle intake seat and a 3 angle exhaust. Not the 5 angle they advertise. The guides were slightly looser than desired but not out of line too bad. The deck was nice and true and his opinion is they are like buying a Procomp and doing a bunch of touch up work and cleanup like he usually does. Except the work is already done for you out of the box. Patriot heads seem to be assembled with a LOT more care than Procomp but they definitely start out life at the same foundry.

cuisinartvette

Spoke with Skip White about a yr or so ago and he said he bought back all the earlier heads due to issues and came up with his new head supposedly much improved. Place that used to do their machining/port design was bought by a kid who ran it into the ground. New stuff should be better but again like any aftermarket part should always be inspected no matter what it is.

jag327

I think you will be real happy with the heads.

Here is something I found today good info, Like I been saying most of the
problems with the procomp heads - is how they are set up, you need a very good machine shop some you trust to check them out.

If you go to the begaining of this forum I have some pics close up of the procomp heads.


http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...=246624&page=2

trbo355

Ok so now that im bolting these heads on......... **** these heads! They dont have a single accessory bolt hole in the right position. The passenger alternator bolt hole is a 1/4 inch off, all the driver side 3 bolt pattern lines up to the bracket but is also so damn low the water pump gets in the way of the lower bolt unless you grind a flat on the washer, which in turn ruins ALL the bracket alignment especially on the complicated 80 camaro P/S and A/C brackets it uses.

Here's the best part. The head face is almost 1/4 inch too short on length and washers have to be used to restore belt alignment. That makes each head almost 1/2 inch too short total! Did we save some aluminum here by casting total ****?

These heads should come with a bag of washers, a case of beer and one of those foam tv bricks to aid installation. Its gonna take 4 hrs to make all this stuff bolt back on. Blah!

trbo355

I like to see how many ****in asterisks i can ****in get while posting about these ****in cylinder ****in heads that are a piece of ****in ****. LOL

jag327

I'm never seen the Patriot heads before.

Check the be gaining of this thread, I guy had to re-top the procomp heads for his brackets to fit.

My machine shop has bolt pattern plates that he can tell you if the bolts patterns off or what range years the heads will fit for brackets most Procomp that I seen fit the small block chevys old type set up like I have - drilled for the older type motors.

I call my machine shop - he said your shop should have check the bolt pattern.

trbo355

These heads replaced a generic set of 882 cast factory heads so everything im dealing with is definitely old school std small block pattern. I know the vortec heads and others have different patterns but thats not the case here.

JimmyDavidson

The new one must not be as good as the old ones. I got a set in late 2006 and they were perfect. One of the few things that didn't need to be modified to fit. While I don't have much run time on the motor(no miles, just a couple hours total of run time) they are still holding up nicely. No cracks, or warping. I guess the real test will be when it's on the road.

Perhaps you got a bad set? Although, I haven't heard much praise for Patriot recently, so maybe it is them.

smokintire84z28

i have a set of pro comps 190 64cc on my current 355 build up. my machinist swears that if you buy them bare, have a good machinist work em over and install all good hardware that they're just as good as any other high dollar aluminum head. i aso know alot of guys who run them with no complaints. my one friend has been running a set of the pro comps on his 306 mustang motor for over 2 years now and he runs the **** out of it and has no problems. thats what really sold me on them, because like anyone else i was very very skeptical at first. but after seing them hold up on friends cars and listening to my machinist's advice i feel pretty comfortable with them. they look really nice, and seam to be a good deal. i bought them bare for 400 off ebay ( skip whites store) and had my machine shop check them out, clean up the ports and bowls and installed all new comp hardware and manley valves and i still have just under 1000 bucks in them. which as you guys know is cheap for an aftermarket set of heads. i havent fired my new 355 up yet so i cant say for sure yet, but i will keep y'all posted on how they turn out.

faster1k

im running a set of the 210cc on a 406 HSR and fit is nice and i have a buddy with them and he has about 10k miles so far and has had no issues at all.. only thing ive heard bad is that they dont perform.. so i went with procomp 210s instead of dart 190s

plus they are a clean looking head in my opinion for $500 assembled, half the price (some of us have budget builds and this seems like the best option)
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...even-have.html

trbo355

I got the motor started up today and everything seems fine with the heads. No valvetrain noise or geometry problems and once we got past the bracket issues, it all went fairly smooth. Im going to chassis dyno the combo and see what it puts down since i cant drive it with all this damn snow on the ground.

Its a basic 355 flat top piston, long tube 1 5/8 headers, Patriot 190's 64 cc chamber Edelbrock EPS intake and Edelbrock 600 carb setup with a fairly lumpy cam the rebuilder installed. No idea on cam specs but nothing too crazy. Might be interesting to see what it makes.

wyochimneysweep

iTrader: (1)

so should I go with the pro comp heads from skipwhite? I only got 800 to spend

formula1LE

iTrader: (3)

Yep....Patriot heads are crap. I tried to do a GM serpentine swap on a 406 which had a set of Patriots on it and the PS/alt. Acc. holes were all off by a half inch! Wtf? With a serpentine bracket there is no fix for this....truly pieces of **** imo! I'll stick with GM fast burn alum. heads every time after this mess.

DeltaElite121

Did you actually mention this to the company you bought them from...

george 88gta

iTrader: (1)

Had the same problem trying to install a serp setup on these heads. Called the seller and he told me I had the heads on the wrong side. At that point, I figured they werent the sharpest tack in the drawer and further discussion was useless. I redrilled for the serp brackets and it went on fine.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

By the time you guys replace all the chinese hardware and have the machine shops check them out you say you're at $1k? The Pro-filer heads aren't that much more expensive. Brodix IK180s are barely any more than that.

http://www.profilerperformance.com/r.../sbc-23-degree

http://www.jegs.com/i/Brodix/158/1021004/10002/-1

And the Blueprint Engines Aluminum heads may be chinese casting, but they're definitely not the same as pro comp and the Blueprint engines guys have been really forthcoming about those heads.

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361582

http://www.blueprintengines.com/inde...cylinder-heads

I'd pick any of those before the Pro Comps if they cant even get the accessory bolt holes right.

DeltaElite121

It should be noted I've seen a lot of agitated people that bought Profilers directly from the company because of the same problems. The castings weren't an issue, but the hardware definitely was. I'd recommend going to Chad Speier if you're going to go with them.. or buy them bare and assemble them that way so you know exactly what you're getting.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Is it the valves and studs etc that are bad? Or is it just the springs/retainers etc? Valves are pricy, but springs/retainers etc are an easy fix.

DeltaElite121

It was the springs, retainers, etc. I don't recall people complaining about the valves but I could be wrong. If you do a search on Yellowbullet you'll see quite a few people talking about the heads.

formula1LE

iTrader: (3)

My advice is simple....stick with USA manufactured parts....period.

sniperperforman

Iv been building engine for many years. im still a pro engine builder working out of my own pole barn now. Iv used Pro comp heads many times. All pro comp heads should be orderd bare and assembled with choice parts. 1 thing about pro comp heads is they send there heads set up for flat tappit cams. there valves are cheap knock offs that tend to break after so many heat cycles.
But to be honest any head should be orderd bare. that way you can taylor them to your aplication. the casting arent bad they are alittle ruff but nothing i have seen out of dart/brodix/edlebrock.

i use them now on my 434 stroker. just my .02

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The heads I think are hit or miss, but I agree if they are bare and set up by someone who is competent they should work well.

Some parts Procomp makes are outright nice. I picked up a polished EFI intake and it's great. Plenty of material to port out to a 1206 or greater to match my AFR-210 heads, and under $200.

-- Joe

sprojam

58cc procomp heads ten years ago I put a set on my 355 3 months later I bent a push rod. I recently tore back into this motor after a long break and took the heads to my local machine shop. After all is said and done the valve guides were shot witch are a pain in the **** because of the size procomp uses so bronze guides are now installed good pushrod guides installed so geometry is good now and a 3 angle valve job has been done. I also replaced the camshaft because of this pushrod rockers and valve springs and hardware. After talking in depth to my local machine shop it seems he sees a lot of this from all head manufacturers so check your stuff or pay down the road.