The chamber sizes are 65cc and 75cc on the new Eliminator heads. Smaller chambers can be ordered for an additional cost with a mill option (same heads but milled.) The information just hasn't been updated for the new product. Brian

Why?

If larger stem valves promote better flow why do we offer so many options to reduce their diameter and shape (back cut, tulip, ect)? If they're so poor flowing why do LSx heads walk all over conventional heads for flow figures?

The wrong valve in the wrong application might impede flow but it certainly isn't 8mm valves across the board.

Brian

double post

Larger stems? Now Im confused. How are 5/16" stemmed valves larger?

Shaggy - I thought we were still on the stock valve vs. 8mm... not really sure where the 5/16 comment came from.

Brian

5/16 valves can be fit cheap(bronze wall guide liners) and are about the same size as the 8mm stuff.
Smaller is fine until you surpass strenght vs flow. If you're running 300+ pounds of spring seat pressure(blower motor) you're not running 5/16 valves unless you don't mind dropping them in the motor. - Not that a street motor would ever have that much spring, just stating a point.

From what I've read in this post, the new AFR heads are LSx style valves, 8mm stems, 2.05 dia? - plus a re-design in the port for how much cfm? And still $1000 more than I have in my toplines?(bare with cnc chambers, manley valves, comp roller double springs, comp 10 retainers and locks - car ran 11.72 @ 4161lbs) I just don't see there beeing $1000 worth of power difference.
now thats apples vs steak. LSx heads are a completely different design. Different port angle, different port design, etc....much more than just a valve change.

I personally would not use the words quality and AFR in the same sentence together. For a few dollars worth of CNC they could have finished the heads properly (like take off all the sharp edges), instead they send you a functional (and thats debateable) but half baked product. I spent about an hour including setup time doing what they should have done to make them 'pretty', but at least when I work on my car I wont tear my hands up on the heads. Thats not to mention the alignment problem with the accessory bracket that was well over a bolt width off, or the intake surface that was protruding well into the lifter valley area that we had to have machined down. Funny, the factory L98 AL heads we took off the stuff bolted up just fine. Maybe these new heads are on par finish wise with everyone else, but I doubt it. About the only plus side is they perform well. Better than TFS? I dont really think so. There's a local guy who is using TFS heads and a few using AFR's and they are all in the same HP range, actually the one using the TFS heads is making a little more power. Flow numbers arent everything you know.

Where does $1000 worth of difference come from? They're $1399... If you bought assembled, CNC'd pro-toplines with hardware for $399 they probably fell off the truck somewhere.

Yes, LS heads are completely different but the point was that 8mm valves perform at least as well, better, than standard valves.

Brian

I hate when someone comes in and starts downing a new product....now its got me wondering!?

Here we have someone saying that AFR heads are crap!..why? because they dont have them?

I have also heard about the quality issues with AFR but they are suppose to be top of the line heads...Im sure they didnt get that rep for sending crappy heads out...

hell I dont, just my 2cents

AFR's are the top of the line no if ands or buts about it. No Flow numbers aren't everything but they hit the intake and exhaust flow right on the friggin moeny. AFR's will make more tq all the way across the board than ANY other new in box head on the market for that price. They have made their rep by blowing darts, trickflow, and gm fastburns out of the water and that was with their old heads... the new ones that they are selling for the same price as the old ones are producing 20-30 more hp and even more tq all the way across the power curve. Dynos don't lie. Personally sharp edges are the last thing I'm worried about when I spend 1400 bucks on heads. I want performance and honestly when you get a head that performs that well for that price, they are gonna have some cosmetic imperfections.

Hell I'll work 3 jobs if I have to but I'm getting me a pair of those heads.

There will always be critics... No one, and no company, can please everyone every time.

The proof is in the results, the heads have always made good power and will continue to do so.

I wasnt too thrilled with having to machine off .080 off each intake face after I had the heads ported and port matched, nor having to modify the accessory mounting bracket with the engine back in the car. At least I figured out why the original owner of the heads was having problems with the intake manifold leaking. I'm not sure exactly how their machining process works but I thought a CNC'd head would have been close. Guess I was proved wrong.

Dont hate the messenger. I didnt make the things, I just tried to use them. No complaints about the power, just not happy what I had to do with them to get them to fit right. Shouldnt have to do that with a $1400 set of heads, regardless of what percentage of parts are problems in general. A simple measurement could have prevented the problem.

I couldnt believe when Pro-Topline pushrods hit and then they had the taller ports which were later discovered to actually be a benefit if you matched the intake. All those customers left to ream out the pushrod slots out. What were they to do? Now that is a real tragedy. Lucky you werent one of those guys with the Toplines and just had to do loads of extra machining instead of having to ream a couple holes.

Now lets check out AFRs track record.

I remember a ways back about a dozen people complaining about oil drainback with AFR heads. Also seen some horrific photos of AFR heads leaking coolant on a Dart block because they didnt seal up enough. I also heard from a member who witnessed the AFR heads being machined and the low quality of the aluminum was revealed.

Heres a link for reference.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/te...block-not.html (AFR+ Motown Block= Not compatable)

personally, I do believe afr's make great power. - just making sure no one confuses any of my statements with trying to "put down" afr.
I had read $2000 earlier in the thread, didn't see $1400. So that only puts them $400 higher than my toplines. - I bought my topline as-cast ports, cnc chambers, bare. I then bought the valves/springs/ret/locks that I wanted, heads and all jewelry I'm just at $1000.
Yep, saw that myself on a buddies motor. I also saw the thread you're speaking of. AFR didn't leave enough material at the bottom of the head, between the bolts - left a wide open collant passage from the block. The worst part is all afr would do is say "sorry for the inconvience." So now you have a brand new expensive set of heads with full machine work done and you have to have material welded onto the outside of the head and then have them re-surfaced, only to have a partially blocked coolant passage.

Now, I do have one out of place accessory bracket bolt hole on my heads, but it's the inside bolt near the tensioner. I just left it out. The bracket is trying to twist inward, why would it care to move? - I didn't have any pushrod issues, or any other issues. The castings on the 4 sets I've personally seen were beautiful. All I had to do was a 5 angle valve job and assembled them.(the seats came ground with a 3 angle...the 5 just looked soo good)

[quote=madmax;3072584]I wasnt too thrilled with having to machine off .080 off each intake face after I had the heads ported and port matched [quote]


There are lots of reasons for this and they very likely aren't AFR's.

First, it sounds like your heads were used. Lots of things happen with used heads...

If the heads were ever milled its pretty common, and usually required, to correct the intakes. If your porter changed the intake port shape it isn't AFR's fault they aren't lining up.

Its not uncommon to machine intake surfaces to make them line up perfectly, its part of building it correctly.

Finally, when there area million variances on stock deck height, head thickness and exact intake location why is AFR held responsible for what may have already not lined up perfectly?


It could have been a lot of different reasons ...

Man, lets not even talk about the problems protoplines heads had. Pushrod problems, rocker alingment, coolant leaking through intake ports because of porus(sp?)castings, accessory holes that didn't line up, gaskets that wouldn't seal on the intake side. There is a reason they stopped making the aluminum versions and haven't started yet.
I was lucky, the set of iron protoplines I had didn't have any problems but have heard a lot of people did as did my machine shop. For a head that they use to push to sell now they tell people to stay away from.
Protopline heads are good. But for everyone that spends 1400 for a head there's going to be someone that didn't spend as much and say their stuff is just as good.

And as far as the AFR heads and DART block not working together. Is that either one of the manufactures fault? No. Does that happen with a stock block. Not that I heard of. If it was then yes that would be a legitimate complaint, but you can't knock the quality of either one of the companies because the two aftermarket parts won't work together. I imagine that AFR probably test fits their heads on a production GM blocks, not a DART block, or a Motown block or a aluminum block.

I just dont know that many guys having problems with their toplines other than the pushrod problem that is a simple fix and is pretty common amongst so many different heads.Their were just as many problems in the beginning with AFR heads with leaky gaskets and ports not aligning.

Both Dart and AFR are aimed for the racing market which actually is geared towards non stock blocks. It shows how important a problem this really is. In retrospect Dart has made their blocks no differently and all other heads did not have that incompatability problem. Who was the one that changed the casting Dart? No it was AFR.

Thanks for the #1 typical CSR response. Do you work for AFR? Actually, it was the fault of the heads just like I said. Maybe if you had read that I clearly stated that the factory heads had no issues, you'd have realized that and moved on. I really hate when people are so quick to blame a million other things with the assumption the person with parts in hand didnt know what the real problem was, without knowing a single thing about the part being used or the experience of the person who was doing the complaining. There actually are quite a few people in the world that didnt just fall off the turnip truck, but there sure are a lot of people that seem to think so in the aftermarket car part world. I think its the other way around and its disappointing to see it proved over and over on a continual basis. Unfortunately what happened was the following since you want a novel:

A friend of mine purchased the heads, new direct from AFR. He took them out of the box, and bolted them up. They were never modified in any way besides getting rid of the chinesium rocker studs AFR was using at the time (search you shall find). He put about 1000 miles, maybe, on them and then sold them to me. So no, nothing happened with them while they were used.

As they were used previously, never machined aside of AFR's process, neither myself, my friend at the machine shop, nor the head porter thought to check for serious problems like the head being too wide. I should have known better, having run into serious fitment problems with just about every 'high performance' aftermarket part I've ever used. And you're right, its not AFR's fault the port didnt line up after we ported a poorly machined set of heads. We should have checked first to see if AFR knew what the dimension from dowel pin to intake face was, apparently they dont or at the very least they dont check what they produce.

You're right, totally common for intake surfaces to not line up perfectly, thats why GM has so many problems with intake manifold leaks... oh wait, they dont. If you were referring to the port matching, different subject. I'm referring to the intake face being too far from the dowel pin, making the intake face of the head protrude WELL into the lifter valley area. So far in fact, I set the heads on the block to check the port match with the intake in place and saw a major overlap from intake face to the china wall on the block. With the intake in place, there was a 3/8" gap from the bottom of the intake to the block. Way out of spec. Its not the fault of anything other than an improperly machined cylinder head intake face.

Again, you're right there are a million things that can affect the location how much the head gasket face has been milled, bent dowel pins, angle milling. Why is AFR responsible? Maybe because the dimension that I measured, from dowel pin to intake face, was way off factory spec. Thats why I had the intake face milled... down to factory spec. And funny after that was done, they fit on the block like they should have in the first place.

hey, madmax what kind of AFR head did you have?
and how did they work on your freinds motor and not yours, or did i miss read that? just wondering.

I have 190's. I didnt say they didnt work on either motor, in fact I bet if I had just bolted them up and ignored the intake face the thing would have ran but due to the intake face of the heads being so far off the manifold ports did not line up right (both head and intake ported to Fel Pro 1206) and the intake really was way too far off the block making things like sealing at the china wall and distributor gear mesh an issue. The guy I got them from was having a constant problem with oil leaks and I'm sure I know why. He didnt do any porting at all so I'm sure he never checked port alignment and given how as cast parts are... probably didnt matter. I ended up with a lip from the manifold to the head, so I had to fix it.

I'm sure this is a 1% thing (more like 10% if you ask me)... but advice is CHECK THE PARTS! Nobody is immune to error and junk, AFR included.

sounded like a nightmare

did you ever call AFR to see what was going on, or if they could remburse you for the milling you had to do?

Here are a members flow for his AFR 190's from an independent shop from one of my boards.

Straight out of the box..
Intake
100 62 cfm
200 116
300 166
400 211
500 244
600 backflow

Exhaust
100 47 cfm
200 95
300 126
400 147
500 164
600 170
700 176

Here is AFRs advertised numbers at that time

Intake
.200 144
.300 208
.400 244
.500 262
.600 261

open pipe
.200 115 121
.300 146 157
.400 176 188
.500 190 202
.600 197 211

Wasnt that bad, just disappointing and created some extra work and delay. I figured after the work done I could just bolt up and go, and instead they went back to the machine shop to have the intake face milled down on a CNC.

I never bothered calling AFR, I'm absolutely positive I would have gotten the same response as posted above that its not the head but rather something else. I think its an affliction in the aftermarket parts arena, always blame the other parts until the bitter end. Been there, done that... many times. Besides, they were used so... tough luck. I wasnt looking for any reimbursement anyway, but had I bought them new... oh boy. I'd have returned them in person and I would not have done any work to them in advance, gives them no excuse. Thats a good idea anyway, last thing you want to do is modify a part and then try to get a return or refund... aint happenin.

I'm sure these new heads are going to do well otherwise, they flow as good as my ported ones do (if the numbers are accurate, not getting into that debate) and I'm making some decent power.

your friend may not have machined them but did it ever cross your mind that they could have gotten hot and warped?

you made it sound like it was

i got my heads today. id post pics but dont know how. if anyone cares to post them for me, i will send the pics in an email.

i cant see any difference in the intake port, with my naked eye, from the original 195's that i had before.
i did notice though that the exhaust port is now square whereas the old ones were d shaped.
the oil drainback now has a little tub for the oil to sit in as it drains back down, in order to get the oil away from the springs/valvestems.
the chamber seems to be smoother than my old afr's. the cut lines arent as deep.
the springs ARE NOT beehive, although ive seen some guys who sell these heads say that they are.
i didnt measure the intake valve YET, but for a 2.055 diameter, it doesnt even look as close to the exhaust valve as the stock heads that ive seen which were using 2.02's. the exhaust valve is rolled with a big radius at the widest point of the head, causing it to stick out a little from the seat. i assume this helps flow.

i like that cnc'd "afr" logo on the end of the heads. my old ones didnt have that either.

i work in a tool and die shop, so tomorrow im taking them to work so i can check them out real good. then im leaving work early to take them to get the steam holes since my boss doesnt want me using his mills to do them myself. its only supposed to cost $40, so no big deal. im gonna try my hardest to get them back by this weekend so i can put them on my 400. it should be running in a few weeks. just in time for the snow, lol.

the papers i got with these heads listing the details of parts used, instructions, advice, etc. are the EXACT ones i got with my old 195's. so that means, the part numbers it says were used for the valves, springs, etc are all wrong. i thought afr would have updated or reworked these papers to reflect that they are no longer making the old 195's and this is the new version. but nope.
im happy to have them (thanks cutlassracer for the advice), but im anxiously waiting for something else to go wrong since getting these heads has been nothing but trouble. so the next 2 weeks or so will be very hectic for me while i try to get my car running before the snow flies. vivarin here i come.

there are no sharp edges on these heads. as for fitment, ill be sure to let you, and everyone else on the internet, know if any issues come up.

these heads are nice, but afr is a p.i.t.a. to deal with. just stating a fact.

ill report back as soon as i get some g-tech times out of this combo. im looking for mid 4's 0-60. mid 12's in the 1/4mi.

I wouldnt call it a nightmare, I leave that denomination to Edelcrock. It was more like aggravation. A nightmare would be bolting the head on and having it crack in two. Twice.

Ummm... the face doesnt expand into the lifter valley from warping. Anyway, warping is a .005ish issue not a .080 excess of material across the entire face, and results in a uneven surface. The surface was totally flat. It was a machining issue.

obviously you've never seen/had a warped head. The intake surface isn't gonna move, unless you've hit the point of physically melting the aluminum(way past engine lock-up). The only surface that warps from heat is the deck. The most I've ever seen was .006 and that motor shut itself down from heat. - his .080 intake issue is WAY out. I would agree that the previous oil leaks stemed from a china wall vent.

I have heard of people with problem toplines. - The biggest complaint seems to be the non-conventional intake port, but that's why they make the power they do, proper gaskets and a little intake porting and voila! - Accessory bolt holes, this seems to be/have been a problem with all aftermarket head companies, it's only ever been the inside bolt on the passenger's head...forget about it. - pushrod clearance, oh, so you had to run a paddle wheel through there twice on a die-grinder? woopee, you should try running a rev-kit sometime, then you'll have something to complain about. - Poor casting/poor flow.....again, seems to happen with all manufacturer's from time to time. Much of the problems with the toplines comes from blemish heads. If the distributor you bought from was buying blemish heads at a cheaper price, not telling you and still charging regular price, is that the manufacturer's fault? Any dist that does machining can buy the blem heads, but if they don't machine them before sale, you end up with heads that need work.

- It all comes down to the same old thing...aftermarket parts. Buy from a reputable store/distributor/company and do some research. One way or the other, it's still aftermarket and sometimes your combination of aftermarket parts isn't just gonna bolt together.
Some of you people would go nuts playing with the KB block, big chief heads, shaft rockers, etc.........that stuff doesn't even pretend to bolt together. I guy I know just spent a little over $100k on engine parts for a 10.5 car, and nothing bolts together it all takes expensive machining. - not that it wasn't know before hand, just stating that the cost/brand of an aftermarket part has very little to do with it's ability to "bolt-on" zero machining.

At least when Edelbrock screws up it's so bad that you can't even get it to bolt up.

Uh - oh, what have you seen or heard on the AFR rev kit and problems? I was seriously thinking about installing one when I put my AFR 195s on in the next little bit...

Yeah madmax just said that.

I haven't messed with afr's rev kit. Just rev kits in general (especially with aftermarket pushrods) tend to have "rub" issues. The retainer is never exact with the heads and the pushrods may rub the plate. Nothing a little die-grinding handle. - the more extreme the engine, the more issues. Larger pushrods, valve/pushrod geometry moved from o.e. (many aftermarket perf heads) the more likely you are to have a problem.

Here's my 2 cents

Ive been looking into AFR products for some time. I was pretty much set making them my next purchase, that is until i talked to my friends over at Livernois Motor Sports. After inquiring they told me that the reason AFR heads alwas flow better than others is because of the medthod they use. Basically inflated numbers... much like wattage on most audio amps. However, this is not to say that the product isnt built well.

After hearing that... I think I might spend a little less cash on something that would flow just as well without the big name behind it.

I heard the same about a machine going down. I ordered a set of 195's 6/16 from CNC-Motorsports. Just got off the phone with John from CNC and he told me that AFR told him that they(CNC) should receive my heads on Oct. 25.

I've never used a rev kit but have heard both good and bad about them but in my overinflated opinion they seem like a band-aid for not having proper valvetrain in the first place

While everyone has their opinion...

Did you see Chevy High Performance's article that flow'd most every aftermarket head available?

Flow'd their advertised #'s and also took top honors in the categories they were in.

There is a lot of variance when people don't flow heads the SAME way, calibrate their equipment or have their own agenda. I was pleasantly surpirsed today as our 2006 EMC engine picked up 54 points on another engine dyno, instead of being 'run of the mill' we're #1 qualifier for the first day. Just an example that on our dyno we were down quite a bit, on their generally conservative dyno, we made more power - flow benches are no different.

If they didn't make good power they wouldn't be popular. Its not only people bolting these to their car it's professionals, builders, tuners and a lot of people with A LOT of knowledge that are using these heads extensively.

$.02

Brian

yep outflowed every head in almost ever possible way... I think one or two of the other heads had better low lift numbers but not by much and the afrs quickly passed em up and by alot... and that was their old street heads... the new street heads flow better then their old comp heads.

I cant find one article that doesnt show a fully CNC'd AFR head vs an as cast any other head. Funny is some as cast heads produce some pretty good power comparative to AFR. I see lots of skewed comparisons so its hard to believe anything that anyone is saying.

It is funny that many people here just state opinions on what this guy at this shop said this or this guy at this store said that with nothing to back it up. Nice blah blah blah. Vendors here will support what they sell and talk their blah blah too. Just look at independent tests (like some mags) that test in same equipment and under same conditions to avoid being questioned. I have never ever read anything but compliments about AFR heads. That's what convinced me. That they could have a little problem here or there? Even Lexus have those and bad mouth replicates like 50 times faster than good things. Finally I don't understand the issue on cost unless you are a student that can't afford these things. A set of regular AFR are about $1350 for fully CNC chambers and both I/E ports. You will pay about that for Trickflow or new Brodix RR and the only CNC is in the chambers. A set of Edelbrocks or other aluminums will be around $1000. Is $300 that much more when you spent a grand already? Not to me. Now if you go to the iron ones then just get some cheap Vortecs for $539 and call it a day.

I dont think anyone is bad mouthing anyone but just pointing out some good points. From the general feel of the boards the AFR heads seem to be difficult to come by. I think people want to feel they could get something as good from a different head manufacture and not have to wait for it. I know for a fact you can get some pretty damn good deals from shops for the other head manufacturers so it seems without the wait. And guys are getting just as good performance with just a little clean up work that doesnt cost them much more. Maybe if AFR can keep up with the demand they can be more competitive. The AFR heads seem great but like everything they have their problems and an open forum lets those problems come out. I mean I see lots of threads of different opinions for just about every head and having Topline heads I have heard them all trust me. Its no different so dont take offense. If someone had a bad experience with a certain product then I want to hear about it and dont consider it bad mouthing. Its something that should be known and not to make people that didnt have a so good experience feel that they are just plain lying or complaining.

obviously you've never run a solid cam, or turned much rpm. For a 6500rpm hyd cam, a rev kit is a waste. Higher rpm or solid lifter cams benefit greatly from a rev kit. My dad's blower motor valve springs have 320lbs seat pressure, over 1000 open. Without the rev kit it breaks lifters because with .030 valve lash, they "bounce" and that much spring smacks them hard. My hyd roller street car picked up .06 with the rev kit and the motor ran smoother. I'm already over sprung, one-piece moly pushrods, crane lifters, roller rockers, yadayada. Start swinging over 7000rpm and over .550 lift around, you'll quickly find the benefits of a rev kit.

As for testing of heads, did anyone read the CHP article that compared afr 180's vs a ported set of old-school bowties? Dyno'ed on a 327, flowed on a superflow bench. They were bragging about how great the heads were. They tested the bowties at lower compression and yet they actually made more power up till around 4k, and then they held ground pretty well even after that. The afr's flow numbers looked great comparison wise, but how could you honestly justify the money for what little was actually gained performance wise? If it was going in a typical weight/geared street car it would probably have slowed down.

i must have missed that test but every other test i seen shows the heads that flow the best with proper cam ground to that head and intake, make the most power.. something in that test sounds like it was mismatched.

I totally agree that AFR are a pain to get. I experienced it myslef and think the company sucks big time in that aspect and posted here in another thread. I'm also not against anyone to post problems in a forum from personal experience with a product. I think that is the best thing of the internet. What I warn is about people posting of that some one who told someone else who thought about some one about something.. etc. and people talking bs about products without data/experience to backit up. But then again this is the internet and there is no BS filter yet invented (hello Google$ ??)

Part of the wait you guys are seeing is that AFR builds your order. AFAIK they dont have a thing sitting on the shelf, like Brodix, TFS, Edelbrock, etc so it takes a little while to go through that process.

So, if I read all this correctly, you're saying if I never plan to rev over 6500 RPM and have a .550 or less lift, that I don't need to worry about a rev kit? What happens if you misss a shift and it briefly goes over that? Not trying to be a wise guy here - I'm trying to decide if I should put in the rev kit I've got when I put on my new (not Eliminator) AFR 195 heads in a couple of weeks or so.....

Probably not. I had a previous combo with SLP 224/232 .497/.517 cam, appropriate springs, guideplates, Comp roller tip rockers, ARP studs, polylocks, and we'd regularily push it past 6000. The last rev limit setting on the MSD was... errr... 7k and it never blew up or gave any hint of doing so. But since you have it, only reason I think not to install it is they are usually a PITA to install. Cant hurt anything IMO.

That's what I'm hoping, anyway. Since I have to pull the intake and the heads to put on my AFR 195s, I figure this is the time to do it if I'm going to. I've got their installation tool as well, came with the rev kit when I got it. If I definitely decide to install the LT1 intake when I do the head swap I'll probably try the rev kit. Since the LT1 intake is soooo much easier to put on and take off than the SuperRam, it would be a lot easier to try it out.

Thanks for the reply madmax!

Any other opinions?

If the valvetrain in the head is properly matched to the cam there should be no need for a rev kit there are people who rev past 7k without them its all in the valve train

Do you mean this article? You are right, the ported Bow Ties made similar HP up to 4,000 rpm but after that, I don't think it was that close. Also, the article stated that ported Bow Ties had larger ports than the AFRs. The ported Bow Ties made peak 401.9HP @ 6,500 rpm. The AFR 180s made peak 442.8HP @ 6,800 rpm. Would have been interesting to see them use AFRs of the same port size.

Aftermarket Heads – Evaluation – Dyno Test – Chevy High Performance

Here is the link to all those test articles

Cylinder-Head Flow-Bench Database - Tech Article - Chevy High Performance Magazine

Maybe the reason AFRs are so difficult to get is a testament to their popularity and desireability. I would be more concerned if they were available at EVERY local automotive store and there were lots sitting on the shelves.