I only had to wait 4 months to get mine through a group purchase, but for the hair-pulling I had to endure after I got them, I would have gladly waited a bit longer to have them sent to me without defect. I ordered them in September 06, received them in February, and got around to putting them on the car In June. Were there no problem with these damn runners, I would have been done in a week. To my detriment, I only marveled at their enormity and lack of weight upon their arrival. I did not inspect them for warpage. My bad, I expected them to be correct out of the box. When I went to put them on the car, I found the driver set, manifold flanges, to be VISIBLY (about 1/16 to 1/8") warped. I was floored. I called ASM and had it sent back to be fixed. The had it back to me in a week no charge. I set it up and checked for "plum" and found it was still a bit off. I am a novice, I figured it was within some strange tolerance and acceptable. I put it on the car and for MONTHS (again, I am a rookie) I fought this car to find out why it could not idle and had one glowing orange cat. I took it to 2 mechanics and neither had any idea what the flying eff they were doing (to the tune of almost $300). I will say that the last guy eventually led me to find and fix the problem, although he had no idea what the problem was. I got the car home and was going to start putting the stock parts back on when I remembered (how do you forget something like this?) the warped runner. I took both runners off and searched for a machine shop to fix them. When I picked them up, they guy told me they were BOTH off about .030". Yikes. All four mating surfaces had to be machined to achive a tight seal. Man did I learn a lesson or two, not the least of which is I have no use for anything that comes from AS&M other than a set of runner gaskets. I am furious that I had to wait for this wonderful product with NO quality control standard. I paid $360 for the runners in a GP. If you add the $80 for machine work and $40 for two seperate sets of gaskets I needed to complete the upgrade, I ended up paying about full price with the added bonus of one hell of a headscratching learning experience/quality control nightmare. Granted, the eventual total cost of my inexperience ($625 for wasted parts and inept mechanical advice) is mostly my fault for just plain not knowing, but at this point I kind of wish I had bought them as a single purchase because it was NOT worth the 4 months it took me to do this project. If you're looking at AS&M for runners, you better have a lot of time on your hands. (reposted in the Group Purchase board)

wow sorry to hear that. i havent heard of problems from those guys..and held their runners as the best out there for TPI cars

And those are the ones I have my eyes on. Once you got it all straightened out, how'd your engine respond? What other mods did you do, at the same time? Noticeable gain?

This upgrade entailed an open element air filter, 52mm TB, ported the plenum to the runners, and bought an Accell Superram manifold off ebay that had already been ported. I may descreen the MAF in the coming weeks, but that doesn't matter for this post.

I didn't really notice as much of a gain as I had hoped for, which surprises me a bit. I was under the impression that once I bolt these puppies on I would go hypersonic. My goal is bottom end torque -stop light to stop light- I don't run the 1/4 so running to 6500 makes no sense to me. I do have a bit throatier exhaust note and probably a touch less throttle response. I attribute that to the 52mm TB. I will say ,that once you jam the go pedal, the phukr wants to MOVE, in a hurry. I rarely get half way through 3rd gear before I have to let off on the street.

For what it's worth, I think my head setup is not the right one for me either. I run Dart Iron Eagle 165SS heads. Those spec at a 165cc runner and a cavernous 72cc chamber. I'm thinking if I move over to a set of AFP 180/65's, I will get more out of my mod.

Good luck bud...
Eric

Wow, I don't think you where the only one to have problems with their runners in that GP. It maybe due to they were pressed to meet the deadline and rush to get them done. I hope there QC is alot better

I don't believe AS&M HP claims to a stock L98, unless your port the plumen and gasket match the manifold I dont see where the runner would make that big HP claim by itself.

Same here, in regards to wanting a low rpm torque increase vs a high rpm hp increase. Mine's a driver, not a racer. Eve if I did race it, it would be autocross, not drag anyways.

Those Darts, I think, would be better for higher rpms, killing your torque.

I don't think the Darts with a 165 cc intake runner is hurting your low end torque, just the opposite. The 74 cc combustion chamber has hurt your compression ratio = less torque.
Go with a smaller combustion chamber(58cc,64cc) and or quench area("0"decking) to find more torque.
The 165 cc intake runner helps your throttle response due to a fast moving intake charge though..........

with a cam, you should have seen some big improvements over stock. those runners can flow a good deal more than stock tubes. same with the base. stock runner/base is suppose to flow around 200cfm while most big runner/base combinations flow 220-230cfm. that little amount should have been very noticeable.

but i agree on compression, you could use more with a smaller cc chambered head. that motor tho proby would like 180 cc runner heads tho

Hey, if I could find a 165/65, I'd jump on it. The 180/65 was the best thing I found to this point. I haven't bought anything yet, but if there's something better, let me know about it!

Why not the Vortec heads? 170/64...

have to swap manifolds..not worth the cost

Yes, but the lower cost of the Vortec heads, offsets the cost of the lower manifold needed. Combine the manifold & heads cost, and your at or cheaper than Darts, AFP, etc. Now, if the Vortecs were the same cost PLUS the manifold, I'd agree.

You just got a bad set then I think. I haven't heard of anyone else complaning about the quality of the AS&M runners. I had a set of AS&M semi-siamesed runners on TPI and they were pretty much perfect. Very light, and very fragile though. The aluminum is paper thin.

I did however have to buy some spacers to take up the slack because the lower bosses found on the original TPI runners were absent from the AS&M runners. I could have gone with shorter bolts, but the spacers were the easier solution.

Very few of the 18 guys who were
part of that AS&M GP have
installed their runners.

I think it was 5 or 6 out of the 18 who ordered them
who actually have them installed & running.

The holes that bolt from the manifold out to the runners
have also been incompletely tapped on some runners.

I think AS&M just didn't give a **** about us. PERIOD.

It's always nice for TGO members who ran into trouble
to give us slow guys a heads up on what to expect.

Yes, but the lower cost of the Vortec heads, offsets the cost of the lower manifold needed. Combine the manifold & heads cost, and your at or cheaper than Darts, AFP, etc. Now, if the Vortecs were the same cost PLUS the manifold, I'd agree.

Yeah, but overall there are many more people who have owned, and installed the AS&M runners over the years than just this group purchase. Mistakes happen, I'm not saying you shouldn't be upset at QC issues, but thats something to take up with the mfg.

I had no problems with my set. The SS runners are just the large tube runners but they have had a section cut out and a new flat piece of aluminum welded in. So there is more chance for something to slip by QC.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/at...-upgrade02.jpg

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/at...-upgrade01.jpg

i purchased my as&m runners threw this group purchase, after i polished mine i noticed one of my flanges were a bit off not flat, almost 1/4 inch off. i sanded mine and was an easy fix with no leaks. i will only buy gaskets from them...nothing else

Vortec heads are not as cheap as they once were. Plus it is not just the purchase price you need to factor in. There is also the machine work you should have done. Such as screw in studs and machining for guide plates. Sure you can use self aligning rockers, but why would you when the cost more? I found a good set of aluminum heads (non Vortec) for around $1100. With some bowl blending and a little clean up of the ports, they have made over 400hp...and that was with a Accel Super Ram. Why spend $600 for a set of iron Vortecs and another $400 0n an intake?

True, but used Vortec heads can be bought CHEAP. Like, 2 barely used for the price of 1 new head.

And you don't HAVE to upgrade to the screw-in studs, guide plates, high lift springs, etc.

Small resurrection.

Too bad you didn't throw them on with them 30 out. I finally just pulled mine back off after months of chasing an idle surge to find that mine are warped about 25 out. The gasket should've more than made up for this but your thread came to mind. I just dropped mine off at the machine shop.

On a side-note: I didn't have any surge problems until I put my AS&M's on. The only reason it took me so long to finally pull the runners is cause very close to the same time I originally installed them, I burned a hole through one of my pistons.

I'll post back on the outcome once I get them back and installed AGAIN.

Viprklr,

Did machining them flat fix your surge?

Nope.
Prom tuning did.