Toehead

madmax

Yea I remember you posting earlier now. Ok... so a few here then.

I'm still waiting for someone to ante up and post up. Surely that claimed 2MPG at $4/gallon will make this a wash after a typical 12k mile year and a benefit thereafter... so which of the proponents is gonna jump in? Sounds like they're not too sure....

dirtywhiteZ28

on second thought, now that i've had a chance to smoke a ciggarete.
Owen of ARD in Houston seems to have made his shop available to the 3rdgen crowd.

Whoever thinks they will send me a FREE copy of this publication, then send it to 2505 SW Frwy Houston, Tx, 77098

I have an '84 Z28 Camaro with approx. 288,500 miles on the original LG4 305 ComputerControledQuadrajet, TH700R4 Automatic transmission, 3.23 rearend, 275/50/15 Defender Tires...

I am quite sure that after installing this SUPPOSED gas saving system that it will fall short.

I will sacrafice my motor on Owens Dyno if that is what happens.
I am sure he won't be thrilled but. 3rdgen rules. Put up or Shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

titan

Wow. As far as I know, this is nothing more than a thread discussing something questionable. If it is, then I'd like the other users to know I have nothing to gain from looking into this. I'm a carpenter. I frame houses. I don't work for any advertising agencies, or any companies that may be selling this. I just think it has potential. I'm building one now, and may possibly finish it this weekend. I'll post pics and instructions on how I did it (all for free) and we'll go from there.

XxCoLTxX

I want a video of a 3rd gen converted and running on this....until that happins its all BS to me.....

titan

There's really no conversion. You add this. Fuel is still the main source, this just helps that fuel burn more efficiently.

XxCoLTxX

I use to work for www.nationalfuelsaver.com they claim ther device that inducts platinum in a liquid form through the pcv valve creates a more efficiant burn to,22% more to be exact...but Ive never actually seen results....I belive the goverment has us right were they want us,and no new technology will be introduced until they want it to be.....

lvbg1435

odd

North

this seems kinda fake right now to me. but i would actually like to see myself proved wrong. if this were true gas prices could go down because of supply and demand, and i wouldnt have to pay 3.95 a gal for my 9 mpg car

though i wouldnt put all that junk under the hood of my car...

chevyman45013

titan

I've had this generator finished for about a week now, but it's not going to be the one that I will ultimately test out in the car. I am going to build another, with a different set of plates, and arranged in a different array. But just to get a little something out there... Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jowMOgXhq8

cameron7710

ok now i see what u have been doing titan i subscribed to ur videos some time ago and didnt quite get what u where doing with the what videos but this theard has made more seance of it but still not to sure a car would burn this stuff

__________________

www.cardomain.com/ride/2986708
http://www.cascadecrew.org/

oil pan 4

Platinum closed to day at 2,176.30/oz, I believe they use troy ounces.
I don't think any of those gagets that claim to use it contain any of it.

fallenleader

I think everyone should be moving on and looking into the "in use" products, run your car on KFC, cheap and smells like chicken. Isn't bio diesel the big thing now?

NJ 3.81/Gal for reg unleaded.

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Mjohnson24266

Well guys sorry to bust the bubble, but when converting an engine to run on hydrogen u need to get a non rust coating on the engine, cylinder heads, and u need a stainless steel exhaust system from manifolds to tail pipes. I have read the book and its a waist of time and 100 dollars. it will work but the time and money of getting everything prepped is a lot of work and may not be worth it.

musclecarz19

1985WS6transam

Apparently the MAP sensor is the "computer sensor which auto manufactures have installed in all vehicles since 1995 which pegs your MPG not to go up higher then the mfg and oil companys want it to."
"Water4Gas has defeated this supressive limit which your car is supposed to be held under."

I should REALLY trust Water4Gas now that they said something like this

88305tpiT/A

If you draw a control volume around the car in question and you only add water to the car and expect to drive around forever - you are wrong. Eventually you will run out of charge on the battery to electrolyze the water. Endothermic reactions (breaking down water into H2 and O) dont sustain themselves no matter how many batteries you add to the car or how you run the alternator. 2nd law of thermodynamics is very clear on this.

If you add gasoline to the control volume as well as water then the claim is that the combustion event is more efficient? Supposedly more energy from the exothermic reaction of the gasoline is used in mechanical work with the hydrogen combusting as well than is lost in separating the hydrogen in the first place.

Considering that the losses in an otto cycle engine running on gas are almost all thermal (waste heat into cooling system, waste heat out of exhaust) and that hydrogen addition to this cycle would only serve to replace some of the gasoline volume with hydrogen, I dont see how it would make the thermal losses any less and improve engine efficiency.

With gasoline, combustion efficiency (how much of the fuel gets burned and contributes to work addition to the crank) is pretty good but I suppose hydrogen could speed the reaction and you could run less timing and the chamber pressure profile on the crank could work on the crank in a more efficient way. But I thought adding hydrogen to gas would lower the octane rating very badly and you would get severe knock?

All in all the bottom line is that you draw your control volume around the car and if what goes in is not exothermic in nature then it does not bring any heat to the cycle. You cant run an engine by raising somethings internal energy state (H2O -> H2, O) and then lowering it (H2, O) and get any gain in energy. 2nd law of thermo says this is impossible.

IF, (big if) you bring an endothermic catalyist (hydrogen in the water you are electrolyzing) as well as an exothermic fuel (gasoline) into your control volume, and the improvement in cycle efficiency nets more work than you spent making the catalyst (hydrogen), then you have something. Only problem is no one has yet said how the otto cycle is so improved by the addition of hydrogen to gasoline.

Of course all my statements above are an exploration of this idea from a thermodynamics standpoint. As madmax has stated many times - go out and build one and provide some sort of proof of concept and you probably wont be arguing about it on a message board. you will be selling the concept. if you really violate some patent - please post a link. That way when you quote that the big oil corps are keeping the idea down we will have a way to check.

super_kev

Quite the topic here. I just saw this pop up on LS1Tech, but not as discussed. For those looking for more legitimate proof, you guys might want to check out these three links (two are large companies that market to truckers, last is a DIY guy).

1992_white_rs

Its not a scam and it doesn't defy any thermodinamic laws. It is a fairly simple process that for some reason took year to become public knowledge. Basically through electrolosis, you break down the 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom that make up h2o or water, and convret them into a separate gas called HHO, or Oxyhydrogen, also known as brown gas or klien gas after the inventor. As most of you know, seprate, oxygen can burn and hydrogen is combustable, however in the form of water, they cannot burn and are not combustable besides an experiment where a man got salt water to burn by passing radio waves through it or something like that. but basically the HHO is created on demand, instead of being stored in a tank, where it would be more dangerous. It is then ran into one of your vacuum lines, into your intake where it is mixed with your normal air/gas mixture. This caused a longer power stroke, much like higher octane gas does as opposed to a quick burst as with low octane. The only biproduct of HHO is water. That is all that results from it so it burns clean. You do not RUN your car on the HHO, I'm sure you could if you wanted to redo your entire car and rebuild it as a hydrogen car or something like that, but that is not the point of HHO. HHo is not meant to run the car, only supplement its fuel consumption. you will still be running a gasoline vehichle, but it would be like you were running much higher grade fuel and it will improve mileage. I don't know about 25%, I will let you know when I get an HHO system installed on my car, I just need to find a weekend where I'm not already doing something else to it lol. but it will improve mileage and I'm not sure about horsepower, but at $4 a gallon driving a V8, I'll take my chances with even a 5% increase in fuel mileage... now if only I could learn to control my lead foot and not drive it like I'm racing at every stop light.....

fallenleader

someone should install this on a car with an OBDII so they can hook up a scan gauge, and make a video for proof. My only car is the Fbird, my womans was too expensive to tinker like that, plus we need one working car...

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92rs85berlintta

Guys this hydro system does increase mpg and its by far nothing new. We made one a year ago out of outlet plates, and a home water filter system and it shows a 2mpg increase on the highway. It was installed on a 2004 sebring and it does work. I called bs on this at first too untill i saw it work. You can add baking soda to get the proper amperage drain from the alt.

Guro 305

It's already been done here locally in West Palm Beach by one of the local news stations. They tried it with their news van before and after. The before was getting a lousy 9-10mpg. The after I think climbed up to about 23mpg. That's a 60% increase which is friggin' fantastic. Let me see if I can find the video link and I will post.

Guro 305

As promised:

http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story...1-939c4bb13a28

DirtyCanadian

Anyone know if those tornado things or what ever they r called, they fit in air cleaner and funnel air into carb or tb? also if you really want to save on fuel consider natural gas im sure your city would have pumps, and it is cheaper than propane.

Pyroviking

Here's the math behind this concept to try to save some of you a little bit of wasted time and money:

There are wild claims made on TV and the internet everyday that try to milk decent, honest people of their hard earned money. It's a rare occurrence that there is any validity to them and it's really hard to tell whats for real, and what's a veiled attempt to separate you from your cash.

In the world of science, there is a concept called "peer review". When you make a claim of an innovation or a discovery, all of your colleagues try to disprove it, whether they believe in it or not. If they are collectively unsuccessful in disproving your claim, then you are credited with the innovation or discovery.

In this case of adding hydrogen, there is well-established math that disproves this concept, as you will see below. The bottom line is that in EVERY step of this process, energy is lost to friction and heat that can not be recovered.

First, taking a step back to clear up a popular misconception in this thread, an alternator does not generate electricity that is not used. The greater the electrical load on the alternator (i.e. how much electrical power the rest of the car requires), the greater the mechanical load it puts on the engine. You can see this concept yourself very easily with an alternator removed from a car and a headlamp. By hand, spin the pulley on the alternator with and without the headlamp connected to it. You'll see that it's easy to spin the pulley with no demand for electricity, but very difficult to with the headlamp connected.

Now, working backwards in the process for ease of explanation, let's start with the actual hydrolysis reaction that separates the water molecule and releases the hydrogen. The efficiency of the electrolysis is very poor, meaning that only a portion of the electrical energy consumed in the reaction remains in the chemical energy of the hydrogen. The practical efficiency for this reaction in a laboratory is 50%-70%.

Next, factor in that alternators are typically around 55% efficient. That means that for every watt of electrical power generated by the alternator, another watt of energy is lost to heat, and nearly two watts of mechanical energy have been spent from the engine. Granted that high-efficiency alternators are available, but even they are only around 70% efficient.

Thirdly, factor in where the kinetic (mechanical) energy is coming from to generate the electricity for the electrolysis in the first place. You car engine is simply a mechanism to convert the chemical energy from gasoline into mechanical energy in your drivetrain. Ever notice that your engine generates heat when it's running? A lot of it? This is because internal combustion engines are terribly inefficient at converting the chemical energy in gasoline into kinetic energy, but is wonderfully efficient at converting chemical energy to heat energy. A stock engine will be around 20% efficient, while a highly-tuned race engine may approach 30% overall efficiency.

Now that we have all of this in front of us, let's calculate how much of the original chem