safemode

iTrader: (1)

dyno it before you put it on, then after. If it works, it should noticably increase hp/tq in the dyno run. Nothing less is going to be worth mentioning.

Though, what you will see instead is a decrease if anything at all.

Also, consider this. If the alternator is recieving constant power regardless of it's output (based on rpm of course), then you'd get the most heat with the least amount of electrical draw, since by definition, any increase in electrical draw (like turning the megawatt stereo on) would lessen the amount of energy available to be heat since it would be going into the electrical energy used in the stereo. So, your alternator would cool down with the more load it's under at a given rpm. Does that make sense to you? cuz that sounds stupid to me.

The extra energy the alternator gets comes from the magnetic field the alternator uses to correct the voltage for the load it's under, as the current draw increases, the magnetic field increases causing the pulley to get harder to turn, which in turn causes the engine to have to increase fueling to maintain rpm.

Now you may say, will if this is true, then there must be a point where the alternator can't reduce the drag of the pully anymore (since maybe the magnetic field is very low) and the engine can't get to a low enough rpm and the pully is absorbing more mechanical energy than the alternator requires to produce the current needed. You'd be correct, but this waste energy only exists while the alternator is under no load, because it's extremely small. The minute you put a load on the alternator, you've introduced a magnetic field that begins to make it harder for the engine to do its job and thus you are not operating in the "wasted energy" zone you thought you were.

All in all, i dont think you'll see a difference either way in the grand scheme. And i dont think you'll get it dynoed to prove it. So this stupid topic will get repeated over and over again.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

correct me if im wrong but isnt HHO a retarded way of putting down H2O? as in water? That being said wouldnt logical thought say that 1. that site looks kinda iffy, and 2. they are making up a "fake" term to spice up the idea of water? i dunno i dont believe it'll work all i could think of when i first heard of it was....what about hydrolock if something goes wrong????????? THe claim of no engine modification and running it on water just doesnt seem right or else we wouldnt fear water in our engines so much

askulte

HHO is Brown's gas (check wikipedia). Basically a mix of H2 and 02 gas.

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

isn't H2O2 hydrogen peroxide?? Brown's Gas is really 2H2O (2 parts water) separated into 2H2 and O2 (4 Hydrogen, 2 Oxygen). if you take half of that, you still get H2O...i don't see where the gas is coming from. I also don't see how you can break down water, use energy from it, and still come out with water as a byproduct?? where did the energy come from then??

http://www.brownsgas.com/brownsgaswaterasfuel.html

i don't think it would be that easy.

CHAMARO

Your question here is valid and I dont think I am quilifed to answer. I would venture to guess that efficiency would not increase significantly, if at all. However in addition I would ask what affect water vapor would have upon the mechanical workings of the engine. Namely the cylinder walls and piston rings. Water vapor is mixing with oil, or sitting in the combustion chamber while the engine is not running would not be a good thing. Also, would the weight of the added components in the vehicle overcome any added boost in efficiency by reducing the power to weight ratio? I am by no means an engineer, just addin fuel to the fire. Oh also there are a lot of hydrogren converson plans going around right now that are similar to this in concept. I have read them and it is a croc of sh*t.
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Oh, also, creating a hybrid fuel source in a vehicle will significantly change the octane of that fuel and therfore ignition timing and compression ratio should be taken into account.

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

http://waterpoweredcar.com/hydrobooster2.html

safemode

iTrader: (1)

when you mix hydrogen gas around with oxygen gas, your hydrogen's pair up together and oxygen's pair up together. So you have this solution of hydrogen and oxygen gas, it's not a molecule like water is, or a compound, it's just a solution.

But yea, it's all BS. It relies completely on the assumption that your alternator is wasting energy that can be reclaimed by putting it under higher load, and this reclaimed energy can be transferred from electricity, to the separation of water and then the subsequent combustion of the hydrogen and oxygen gas along with your normal air fuel mixture. You lose a lot of energy in the process and its source energy (the electricity from the alternator) is only around 300watts. So even if 100% of the energy we use for hydrolysis can be reclaimed, we're only talking less than half a horsepower. Now the real BS is that they claim that what they really do is allow you to burn fuel that you normally wouldn't be able to, thus providing more than half a horsepower in gains. If your car is tuned and operating like it should, then their claims fall apart.

So moral of the story is.
Less than half a horsepower doesn't equal noticable gains. (not unless you're a top dragster)
Doing hydrolysis to make up for a badly tuned car is retarded.
If you want to save fuel, hypermile and get things thrown at your car, or buy an electric one.

But by all means, waste your money and try it out. Drive it around and convince yourself it's working but never take it to a dyno to prove yourself wrong. While you're at it, use acetone in your fuel too and the tornado and dont forget to mist your intake with water vapor, cuz god knows you're not getting enough water in that E15 regular grade crap fuel that everyone uses now.

It's amazing how much people are willing to spend on stupid idiotic ideas to save a little money when the free alternative (drive like grandma) works 100% guaranteed.

fychelio

well i make and sell hydrogen cells the basic one costs $150 a more high end model i make runs about 350 if anyones intrested. email me ill send pics

safemode

iTrader: (1)

this topic has nothing to do with hydrogen fuel cells, or it's use.

89RS_82Z

iTrader: (2)

he aint going to dyno it, he dont really care about HP, all he wants to see is if it will actually make a diff in the MPG's, but more HP can get more MPG's , but pretty much he just wants to see if it can gain any MPG's, either or result will not mean a darn thing to him or me its just a test to see if it can get anymore MPG, but i will post up what we find out........ i predict no change

safemode

iTrader: (1)

the thing is, he's going to alter how he drives either consciously or subconsciously when he is trying to save gas and show his results. Thus the only worthwhile measurement for more efficiency is seeing the increase in hp on the dyno which would have to result. Any other test is worthless and proves nothing because it's not controlled in any way. driving behevavior has a thousand times more of an effect than anything he can add to his fuel.

89RS_82Z

iTrader: (2)

his car has two speeds.......stop, and go

we are going to work up an average of over 5 tanks of gas each way. atleast get a close idea..........unless someone will pay pal the $$$$ for the dyno

black89ws6

Camaros are green. Gas is bad for the environment. Camaros burn up the gas. Therefore, camaros are good for the environment.

Prius is such a gay looking car. I'd rather get 27mpg in a camaro, with $4 gas,and no ****s in my ***, than drive a prius.

DCOWBOYS1975

Thats what I am talking about!!!! I get about 15 mpg and I wouldn't change it for nothin'! V-8 Chevy here on out!!

Trey

micktroup

Guys, a basic law of physics- you can't get MORE energy out than you put in. Having said that, have you noticed that Detroit is losing BILLIONS as we speak? Don't you thing that the first car company that installed a device the increased fuel efficency would make MILLIONS before Labor Day? Follow the money- this idea is SNAKE OIL...

DirtyCanadian

there has been inventions that improve mileage but the oil companies are rich enough to buy the patent, dont believe me look it up. and off topic a new hydrogen station in my city just popped up.

micktroup

See my first sentence... other than that, GLAD TO SEE THE ALUMINUM HAT FITS JUST RIGHT!!

resinlake

Well I have some free time being off from Delphi and all, so I might as well put this all together and there's a dyno down town so if I can, I'll run the dyno before and after. I've gone over the system a few times and it looks plausible on paper, real life results? We'll have to wait and see. There is a part about the O2 sensor and a thread in sleeve that keeps it about 3/4 to 1 inch out of the exhaust stream as with the HHO system 'the ecm starts to see extra hydrogen which it interprets as oxygen.' Can't tell the difference? One of my concerns was the water vapor and back flow so my solution as I've come to find others have put into place is to just use an inline water/oil separator like that which I use with airbrush/paint work and a check valve to keep the hydrogen from flowing back into the container where the hydrolysis takes place. I didn't read all of the posts but something to keep in mind also is that the hydrogen can increase your head/intake temp, I was told around 40+ degrees so I'll be watching that close. If anyone else has already put this to work, please feel free to pm me with any thoughts or suggestions on safety/effectiveness.

Thanks
-Res

titan

The O2 sensor isn't seeing the hydrogen. The O2 sensor is expecting to see a certain amount of oxygen coming out of the engine. If it doesn't, it will instruct the ECM to add more fuel. Basically, it thinks your running lean, and tries to compensate. This in return may in fact increase power, since the ECM has told the engine to use more fuel. Without modifying the sensor you will not see optimum mileage gains. I'm not so sure about the sleeve. It seems like a hit or miss attempt to change the reading from the O2. Everyone is using a piece called an EFIE, which introduces voltage to the signal already generated by the O2 sensor, thus tricking the ECM into thinking the sensor is still seeing the usual amount of oxygen. It's adjustable for precise tuning. There is also a way to trick the MAF/MAP to achieve the same effect. Lastly, this is for mileage, not power. I see alot of dyno requests, and don't see how that would prove anything. Personally I think setting up a container with say 4 cups of fuel in it. Crank car and let it idle until it burns all 4 cups. Time it. Now do the same 4 cups but with the device running, and compare idle times. If you're really burning less gas, it will idle longer. Takes out the "you subconsciously drove slower" idea. Make sure the engine is warm before you begin both tests. Simple enough...

Toehead

Laws of thermodynamics are pretty much the bottom line. If it doesn't conform to these laws, it won't work. You can't get something from nothing.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

You are not getting something from nothing. Thats like saying when you fill up your car with gasoline, afterwards when you turn it on, you're getting free energy to drive down the road from this liquid in your tank. Believe it or not, you are acctually adding energy when you fill your car with water and/or gasoline.
As for how to split the water, research the Voltage Intesifier Circut. Voltage is said to hold a huge amount of potential energy, which has been claimed to be used to unlease the true power of water for the last 10 years or so. Does it work like that? Who knows. I have never seen a car that runs on water but who am I to say that something does or does not work. I have been researching hydrogen powered vehicles for about 2 years now. Some very interesting things have come to my attention over that time, but its just skepticle criticism because I dont really know. Behold the beauty of the internet.

Josh

DCOWBOYS1975

Dude, All of a sudden this is a science forum. I thought only red necks drove Camaro's not metaphysic genius's. Anyway this is all quite intriguing. Does it kill HP or performance with the whole running on water thing??

Trey

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

In equal quantities, hydrogen is much more volitle than gasoline, meaning it packs more "bang for the buck". If you have not seen the commercials, they make cutting torches and welders that run on water that burn pure browns gas (hydrogen and oxygen). If you were to ignite pure browns gas inside of an internal combustion engine, I'm thinking over a period of 5 minutes you would have a molten chunk of steel sitting on your driveway underneath where your hood used to be. However, introducing ambiant air (breathable air) into the browns gas retards it from igniting at such a rapid rate thus controlling the burning process.
All in all, I would say that "running a car on water" wouldn't hurt your performance in the least. Its adding fuel that is several times more potent than gasoline. The only thing I would be worried about is replacing conventional steel valves with stainless and definatly a stainless exhaust system. After all, the by product of burning browns gas is water vapor, which has been known to "customize" some exhaust's over the years.

Josh

DCOWBOYS1975

I am way too stoned for this. CAN IT WORK?? That is the question, and if it can PROVE IT!!

Trey

Guest

Wow months later, still zero proof. Gee, I wonder why.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

How easy would it be to sit back and "nay say" everything all the time.

You should try and be constructive to the idea. Unless you endorse the idea of paying arms and legs to fuel your vehicle.

Guest

Constructive? Ok:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...4-post146.html

I guess when people without background start understanding there's no free energy being used to break water down they'll start understanding that its a losing battle. Making silly arguments that adding gasoline is adding energy doesnt help either if you dont understand the difference between a stable and a volatile substance.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

I am not talking about conventional electrolysis. All those calculations taken were based on a system that is inefficient and we already know that.
People have claimed to tap into harmonic occilation and resonate freqencies to produce the gas with only the very least of effort via electricity. Its a completly diffrent concept all together.
As they say
Only time will tell

Toehead

water is a STABLE molecule. It has no potential chemical energy that we can use. None. Adding gas to the car is completely different, as it has more potential chemical energy that we can use.


When you split it, you actually use electrical power to break chemical bonds, a process that is not entirely efficient in itself, just to get it in a form that has chemical potential energy (hydrogen and oxygen). This is a no win situation. The second law states that in every reaction entopy either increases or stays the same (in a perfectly reversible system). In this case, you are turning something of the highest form of energy (electricity) into a lower form of energy (chemical potential). This WITHOUT QUESTION lowers the amount of useful work in the final product. The second law demands it.


Hydrogen does have more BTU's per pound then gasoline, but consider the space requirements. Hyydrogen takes up 190 cubic feet per pound at STP.
Compare that with gas that takes up 1/50 of a cubic foot per pound, and think of how many cubic feet of hydrogen you need to consume to get something even remotely comparable to the energy contained in a gallon of gasoline.

Area 51

I have tried to go other all of this thread but it gave me a headache. I did see where someone wanted some proof of a third gen running on one. Well I do and have for a few months now, I have a 1989 Trans Am. I run what is called a Smack booster. It's a free design, I also have one on my truck and my tractor. Anyway I have been getting roughly 20% better mpg's with it. I have a video of it on Youtube, check it out if you want. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqRzUo5twC0

Also today I just converted my TA to run on E85 Ethanol, I will do tests on this as well. Does anyone on here have a Third Gen running on Ethanol?

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

I have a question about your addative cell. Mainly about the way you produce gas. Did you happen to make the circuit that the document is supplied with? I have heard of numerous people doing this and ending up with something that doesnt do anything. Or are you just running current through the water?

Area 51

I am just running current thru it, the design calls for 20 amps warmed up. I only run about 10 now. I do have a MAP sensor enhancer in it but I don't think it's doing me much good. The O2 sensor is the one that needs tricked. I recently got a OBD I plug to hook up my laptop to see what the computer is doing. Now with my E85 conversion it will read a lot different, so I will be starting all over again.

Toehead

How are you controlling current?

Guest

Who cares what the process is? You said yourself "only with the very least of effort". Thats more than zero. That means you spent more than you get, as is typical with breaking apart water.

And yet another noob with all of 3 posts, saying it works. Another salesman.

Area 51

MadMax; Typical response by a typical run of the mill forum *****. I have been on enough forums to know the routine. I bet you have a degree in something, don't you?

To answer Toehead's question; I control it by how much NaOH that I put in it. Usually about 1/3 teaspoon does it. I run the positive wire from the fusebox so when I turn the ignition off it's is too.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

For some reason this reminds me of someone leaving their refrigerator door open to try to air condition their house on a hot summer day.

Now what I want to see is biomass derived ethanol and diesel thats yeilds several orders of magnitude more engergy out than in and doesn't drive up food prices...

Area 51

Well there is other sources other than Corn, there's Switchgrass and Jatropha both yield alot more than Corn. Corn is actually a pretty low Ethanol producer.

Guest

Typical response eh? How about you post up the energy equation that disproves laws of thermodynamics or physics for that matter? Or better yet post up some video of your car getting 20MPG off the BS and 24MPG on it?
They sold this junk 30 years ago, nothing has changed since then. It still dont work.

The most defenseless people I've ever seen are the ones that go to attacking a person, whether they are degreed or not, or how many posts they have or dont have as if that makes them any smarter or dumber. I find it funny you posted once to an E85 post, and then come in here, and thats all you've done here... but people are supposed to believe you with zero proof and zero knowledge of who you are aside of the fact you're new and you're trying to help sell this device. "It works." See, I can say it too. I just wont connect that statement with adding hydrogen to an engine and saying it adds energy that was not there previously.

Area 51

I have a video of it running, didn't you see the link? I didn't attack you, you made a sarcasic post directed at me. Yes I did post to a E85 topic, and today I got my E85 conversion installed so I got on here to tell everyone. Then I came across this topic about hydrogen before I got to it. Since I have one on my car I told people about it. For the record, I am NOT selling anything. Where in the previous 5 posts have I said I was selling something?

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Madmax has this overwhelming sureal reality that everyone that says something works, or something could work is trying to milk your hard earned cash out of you. I never read once that anyone was trying to sell anything to anyone.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Are you going to disconnect your hydrogen system from the e85 system and take some measurements before reconnecting it?

black89ws6

Madmax is trying to help you chumps. He, and the others that have tried to explain this, are nicer folks than I. If I get flamed like these guys have been, by the folks I'm tryin to help, I quit helping. These hydrogen kits are bogus. It has been explained several times over in this thread. If you don't think so, than you do not understand the science behind it.

This really reminds me of a good joke I heard on the radio:
"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves."

If you can figure out why it isn't going to work, using the information given in this thread (here), then go pee on the fence already. Be sure and post back your results, as everyone that has tried to explain it to you, and save you the money you'd spend on one of these kits, really deserves at least a good laugh for the trouble they have gone to.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Scientists helping inventors, hardly.
There may be some things that science simply cannot explain right now. The natual phenomenon of harmonic oscillation of a water molecule (as has been claimed) is not likly to be understood. Dont get me wrong, all this stuff sounds like a huge load of BS, but the same things were said about AC current and Radio Waves. It may work with the right circuitry, or it may never work. It has been claimed to work and a man was issued SEVERAL pattents for specific procedure. That is more of an iclination to continue looking at it than your numbers.

Area 51

Yes I will.
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Well I guess you are one of the last ones then?

black89ws6

I don't need to try it. I already know what will happen. I would rather enjoy watching someone else try it, though.

Formula_Fire

Ok this may or may not have been mentioned but after reading most of this post I remembered something.

On diessls a company named "bullydog" makes a propane injection system thats basically the same idea. I've seen it on hotrod and 4x4 offroad tv. They did dyno tests and gained power and mileage. Also propane is VERY easy to convert over to a gasoline car (about $1000 for a carb conversion kit) but the reason no one used it is that there arn't very stringent regulations on the quality of propane and one tank you can get a good one and another it can be a bad one. Hotrod magazine did a story on it about 10 years ago because alot of hot roders in austrailia use it because gas is so exspensive over there.

Alternators CAN put out more than they use. They are regulated and only put out what is needed most modern alternators generate around 100ish amps and only use like half that normally unless you have everything going at once.

In theory this hydrogen suplimental system could work I guess. The real question in could it generate enough hydrogen to make it worth it. Probably enough to effect the milage a few points I guess but not the massive resaults that these scam ads are claiming like make our cars suddenly jump from 18ish to 30 MPG. Also you would need the have the computer retuned most likely to take advantage of it.

One thing for pure hydrogen guys if they hadn't heard Honda is bringing out a pure hydrogen mass production vehical in 09. The hydrogen cell produces electricity (100Kw) and is a little bigger than car transmission (it sits in the trans tunnel). http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...rformance.aspx It uses the electricity to drive electric motors to propel the vehical and has like a 270 mile range. If I could power my bird with an electric engine and have the same performance I would do it. How long do you think its going to be b4 we start seeing crashed ones in the junk yards and people start swaping engines like when the LS6's came out?

Pyroviking

iTrader: (4)

asting

LOL this thread is embarrassing. I read it a few months ago, and laughed. Reread it and all those defending, and had another great chuckle. THINK ABOUT IT. You're breaking up water then just putting it back together. IT Doesn't do jack ****!!!

Think about hydrogen cars. The premise behind this is that you use electricity from your house or a solar cell to recharge. So basically you're converting the coal/nuclear (nukeular to those bush fans out there)energy into hydrogen. You're not gaining energy, just using a different source. Apply those same concepts here. You're using your burned gas to run an alternator to seperate water to burn it to turn it back into water vapor at way less than 100% efficiency. How can this work?

I fear those investing may be a lost cause.

black89ws6

Not the same thing. That is adding additional fuel. The mileage increased because the propane was not included in the mileage calculation, even though it contributed to the engine output.

Although this is true, I'm not quite certain what you mean...You're average 105 amp alternator uses an amp or two to maintain the rotor field when at full output. An alternator that used more watts than it produced wouldn't be much use now, would it?
If what you meant is that they can put out more than their rating, well, that's just laughable, as pyroviking put it.

If that's the real question, then the real answer is no.

30 mpg is achievable on gasoline alone, on stock fuel injected thirdgen engines. Read the DIYPROM forum, or do searches for "highway mode". Some of the guys that have enabled that in their proms have gotten 30 hiway mpg with v8's.

Great. The problem with that sort of thing is that hydrogen is still not an energy source. You can't refine it from crude. You can't ferment biomattter to produce it. You have to take energy from another (fuel) source, and manufacture it, and there are energy losses in those processes, as well.

Anyone who would put any sort of Honda powerplant in their Fbody, should have their Fbodies taken away, and condemned to an eternity of driving Hondas.

Batass

There's a couple people around here that have come up with some pretty cheap transportation. Actually does run on water. The vehicles cost about 2000 bucks. Average speed is only about 25 mph though. They emit a bit of methane gas-horse and buggy.