Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
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Notice how DEEP the siamesed portion of the AS&M SS runners is. I lost zero torque that I could feel with these runners (before I eventually switched to the MiniRam). There are more pics of these runners and the extra little port work that I did in the root directory (extra port work was done by making the port more like a 'B' shape instead of an '8' shape (courtesy of Shane Sholdice)).
Tim
------------------ TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8) All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's after installing Hooker LT Headers and reducing weight.
-=ICON Motorsports=- Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org
Thanks alot Trax!! I had heard somewhere that the AS&M siamezed runners were worked over Accel large tube cast runners.... obviously not the case. Looks like they took their smooth wall large tube runners and modified those by TIG welding in the siamezed part. Thanks again
TRAXION, I need your comment on the the first set up you had compare to the mini-ram, like how does it behave on the street ,did you feel you lost some torque with the mini-ram,I realy need your input so I can decide wich set up to install on my car.THANKS
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1987 IROC w/T56 and a 383 TPI in the works
Tom: Have you measured the actual inside diameter on the Accel runners?? I have read they are 1.66". I also read that the SLP runners are 1.60" diameter and they are NOT. I am in the process of measuring them right now, and there are several places in the runner where they are less than 1.55" diameter. I am porting mine to open them up to 1.60" minimum(where I can reach) and increasing the amount of siamezing. I bought the SLP's because of the sale price of $199 from SLP which is a good price, but I am gonna need to do alot of work to get them to where I think they need to be. I may end up having them extrude honed after I am done with my work.
As far as “Why are the AS&M’s better than the SLP’s?” From the observations I have made from pictures and measurements, I think it is because of the larger volume in the siamese portion of the runners. The SLP’s barely have a siamese portion, about an inch, and it is “8” shaped, which doesn’t give much volume. The AS&M’s “B” shaped siamese portion simulates an extension of the plenum, and since the divider is down farther, the runner length is shorted more to build the upper rpm horsepower. Also, the SLP’s have a cast finish, which is rougher than AS&M’s extruded tubes. TRAXION, A possible reason why you felt no torque loss could be because the torque loss occurred at a rpm’s below the stall point of the converter.
I ordered the SLP runners last week and I expect them to come in any day now. I plan on porting them. Right now I am throwing some ideas around on where to remove material. Because I hear of such good results the expensive AS&M semi siamese runners, I think that I will try to copy that port design in my cost effective SLP’s. Right now, I plan on enlarging the overall diameter of each individual tube, B-shaping the entry(how far down???), and then polishing everything. I see the picture that TRAXION supplied of the AS&M’s, but it doesn’t show how far the siamese part goes down. I have a question concerning this divider:
Exactly how far is the divider from the runner/plenum-mounting surface? Anybody have a pic?
To reach the middle part of the runner to increase the diameter throughout, I am thinking of using one of those cylinder hones that look kind of like a tree: there is a flexible shaft that has wires pointing outward with grinding stones on the ends... I can't think of the name of them right now. Anyway, I need to find one that will work w/ a tube about 1.6" in diameter. The other problem is the stones will fill up w/ aluminum because it is softer that cast iron. Just an idea that I am throwing around, maybe you guys would have something to add to that.
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87 IROC 350
13.94@103mph
Stock cam and chip
I was running the stock torque converter when I switched from AS&M LTRs to the AS&M SSLTRs. So - it definitely wasn't a converter difference.
As far as the amount of siamesing ... check out the pictures posted above again. You'll see welds between the runner tubes. Where the weld stops ... the siamesing stops. Its about half way.
Tim
------------------ TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8) All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's after installing Hooker LT Headers and reducing weight.
-=ICON Motorsports=- Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org
If TRAXION lost zero noticeable torque by going to the semi-siamese runners, could that prove that the stock runner length on TPI motors is excessive? Take a look at Lingenfelter’s Super Ram. Compared to a stock TPI, the super ram runner length is much less and he claims zero or little loss in low speed torque. If we can decrease runner length 3-4 inches, loose zero torque and gain top end horsepower, why not do it? Why not have the best of both worlds... Or is this old news??
Those dividers on my SLP runners can take a hike
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87 IROC 350
13.94@103mph
Stock cam and chip
I agree that the SLPs are smaller than the AS&M but with a little work they are just as good. I have them on my car. Ported and extrudehoned and look at my #'s in sig.
Here are the other mods also though Displacement: 383 CID Compression ratio: 11.93:1 Induction: EFI (TPIS,LPE,BBK,SLP) Heads: AFR Stage 3 Emissions controls: NONE Solid Roller Camshaft 236/244 .590/.590 So over .600 with the 1.6's Rocker arms: Aluminum 1.6 RR's ratio Pistons: Lunati Pro Mod Connecting rods: Lunati Pro Mod Crank: Lunati Pro Mod Ignition: MSD 6AL, MSDdistributor, Coil Fuel delivery: In Tank Electric(225 lph) Fuel type: 93 and CAM 2 at the track Exhaust: Custom 3"Y-pipe & Mandrel Bent Tube Mufflers: 3" Flowmaster 2-Chamber RWHP (w/o nos) 439/407 ft lbs
RWHP (w/ nitrous 125 shot) 536/569 ft lbs
QUITE A FEW MORE ON A 250-300SHOT
NOS: 100-500 adj. HP (gross)
Feed: Single 10 lb Bottle, AN#8 line
I'd like to see either dyno or timeslips with just a runner change out. I like my SLP's which I ported out but if there is something better out there...
However I only paid $100 for my SLP runners used.
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Rob P
89RSconvtZZ4TPI
92Z28convt5spd
71Impala convt 402BB
BETTER DRIVING THRU SUPERIOR HORSEPOWER!
TPI383, 434 HP on a LTR set-up w/ out the bottle is very impressive. Your dyno sheet shows that you got peak HP around 6400 rpm, which is well beyond what I ever thought a LTR set-up would go. What did you do to your SLP runners? Did you siamese them etc?
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87 IROC 350
13.94@103mph
Stock cam and chip
I ported them as much as I could and yes siamessed em as far as as they could be done.. They are also EXTRUDEHONED. along with base and plenum...
Il be the 1st to addmit I should have just got a MR but i had this stuff already and my buddy JIM FORMATO said we could get over 400 RWHP with it so thats what we stuck with.
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Chris
1992 25th Anniv Z28 W/383 Stroker
536 RWHP 569 FT LBS
(chassis dynoed at Ramsies Perf.)
www.go.to/TPI383
Primary applications are air induction components for internal combustion engines, including intake manifolds, cylinder heads and exhaust manifolds. By smoothing these rough "as cast" surfaces in the induction passages, Extrude Hone dramatically enhances air induction and combustion chamber "swirl" velocity. The increased air volume and improved fuel/air mixture result in a cleaner burning, more powerful and more fuel efficient engine.
Extrude Hone's Powerflow processing of intake manifolds and cylinder head intake ports already has met the challenge for viability, reliability and cost effectiveness. Its value was proven in a four-year, $8 million effort supported by Ford, GM, and the Advanced Technology Program of the National Institute for Standards and Technology.
The process is applied to intake and exhaust manifolds, as well as cylinder heads, to remove rough cast surfaces that restrict horsepower efficiency. Powerflow enlarges and uniformly polishes air and fluid passages to maximize the flow velocity through the component. All polishing is performed parallel to the air/fluid flow. The result is a surface finish "grain" achieved in the same direction.
Superior results are reflected in the widespread use of Extrude Hone's Powerflow by professional race teams in NASCAR, NHRA, IRL, CART and SCCA. Production vehicles, such as the Ford Contour SVT, rely on Extrude Hone to produce the increased airflow required for the 2.5L V-6 to achieve 195 hp. Extrude Hone is responsible for annually processing thousands of intake manifolds and cylinder heads at its headquarters facility in Irwin, PA.
In addition to meeting the rigid requirements of professional race teams and production automotive manufacturers, Powerflow is an effective process for the performance enthusiast. Mustangs, Corvettes, muscle cars and high performance imports offer many excellent performance enhancing opportunities for Extrude Hone. Increased custom airflow can be tailored specifically for a Powerflow application. Results have demonstrated that such increases can exceed 30 percent on aluminum intake manifolds and 25 percent on cylinder heads.
Another popular application is strengthening a component. The process eliminates stress risers, such as burrs, from edges and surfaces where a crack can occur. Extrude Hone routinely processes gears and brake rotors to provide a uniform edge that significantly improves the dependability and life of highly stressed components.
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Chris
1992 25th Anniv Z28 W/383 Stroker
536 RWHP 569 FT LBS
(chassis dynoed at Ramsies Perf.) www.go.to/TPI383
[This message has been edited by TPl383 (edited November 15, 2000).]
So where do the $475 TPIS large tube runners fit into this equation? I've read that they make great mid range power. I'm planning a TPI swap and they would be part of it.
Scott, the TPIS large tube runners are the exact same as the AS&M large tube runners. Buy them from whoever has them for the cheaper price. I bet its AS&M.
I think its AS&M's design, and TPIS bought it, and they port-match them to their BigMouth manifold. In case you didnt know, Edelbrock makes the BigMouth manifold too.
i sold my SLP siamesed runners and edelbeock base to a friend and he(well claims anyhow) saw no improvement his car ran the same time . i went to a super ram and lost absolutely no low end power but gained on top. i cant speak on behalf of a MiniRam but i'm sure traxion will be glad to fill in the blanks.
TRAXION:
What do you plan on doing to make your car lighter??
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87GTA super-ramed 355, A4 ran high 12's with old school setup and radials, hoping for low 12's or better /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73,
i sold my SLP siamesed runners and edelbeock base to a friend and he(well claims anyhow) saw no improvement his car ran the same time . i went to a super ram and lost absolutely no low end power but gained on top. i cant speak on behalf of a MiniRam but i'm sure traxion will be glad to fill in the blanks.
TRAXION:
What do you plan on doing to make your car lighter??
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87GTA super-ramed 355, A4 ran high 12's with old school setup and radials, hoping for low 12's or better /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73,
Fiberglass hood, Coilovers, Lightweight Front LCAs, and AC Delete. However, I think that I can hit 11's without doing any of it The higher stall converter will drop my ET by at least 0.1. That means 0.15 in the 1/4. The long tubes with 3" Y and 4" catback should give me at least 2 tenths. That's enough to put me in the 11's.
Tim
------------------ TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8) All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's after installing Hooker LT Headers and reducing weight.
-=ICON Motorsports=- Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org
Is the Big Mouth base the same as the Edelbrock TPI "kit" contains? The kit that includes the base and runners is what I'm refering to.
So what you're saying is that TPIS takes other company's designs, calls them their own, and adds 50% to the original price? I have their catalog and insider hints book which make you think that they spend all this time doing research when in fact they are just researching our wallets!! TPIS can toss off for all I care!
Thanks again for the info!
BTW: AS&M quoted me $395 for their runners where TPIS wants $475 for the same thing.
Edelbrock makes the bases for TPIS. TPIS goes one step further and ports it (2 hours porting it yourself on the Edelbrock) I'd rather do it myself. and the runners are AS&M Its just TPIS puts there name on it.
hey traxion, surf the bone yard's for a front and rear re-bar from a satrurn, not only will they bolt up width wise but are also made of alum. if you have glass t-tops the newer(but cheaper) models had lexan/plastic(5 lbs each) ones instead of glass(10 lbs each) like ours. i have cowl hood also, (FYI 92-00 camry hood are about as heavy as a f-body hood ).
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87GTA super-ramed 355, A4 ran high 12's with old school setup and radials, hoping for low 12's or better /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73,
"front and rear re-bar from a satrurn"
What is that?
BTW, i am almost done with my "poor man's super ram" (slp runners w/ the dividers remove halfway). All I have to do now is get some abrasive rolls to do the polishing and cut my gaskets to fit.
Also, mom said that she'll get me the Xtreme cam that I want for X-mas
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87 IROC 350, 3:42 Torsen, pocket ported 083 heads, complete Edelbrock exhaust, Most free mods, Most little mods, aluminum d/s. Edelbrock STB, SSM sfc's, boxed rear suspension pieces, urethane bushings everywhere.
Stock cam, chip, runners, base, and trans
13.94@103mph, 2.25 60'
In the works: ported SLP runners, ported base, Xtreme Cam, homemade suspension pieces, and 27x10 Hoosiers.
Hoping for 12.999
re-bar: reinforcement bar that is attached to end of the frame rails behind the bumper cover if you take off your front bumper cover you'll see a black honey comb type plastic absorber attached to the rebar by clips this also is heavy and helps the cover retain its shape and dipurse ....hold on...
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87GTA super-ramed 355, A4 ran high 12's with old school setup and radials, hoping for low 12's or better /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73,
sorry had to switch to another computer sorry about the slang (rebar) too bad the bumper covers on our cars are such a pain in the *** to take off. i cant figure out why some models are heavier tham others for instance my '87GTA 3596 lbs(before i ever touched it) my '91 TA 3419 lbs my old '88formula 3360 lbs(now owned by my girlfriends sister) and a car i wish i still had my '84 Z28 3284 lbs... all these cars are t-tops cars. strange huh??? i also had an '85 mustang GT it weighed in the low 3100lbs
i dont know why our cars are such pigs.
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87GTA super-ramed 355, A4 ran high 12's with old school setup and radials, hoping for low 12's or better /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73,
The AS&Ms are too damn much. Is it possible to make the SLPs flow near as much as the AS&Ms with some work? Please say yes.
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'83 Firebird 2.8
'89 Firebird Formula 350
2nd owner, red/grey, t-tops, dual cats, and a 3.27:1 rear
K&N, TB bypass, No MAF screens, CAI
TPI383- Give us your 1/4 mile time and mph.
I'd like to see how it compares to mine.
Just an FYI,when I switched from AS&M LTR's to SLP's runners,without any other changes,my car slowed down 2 tenths and lost 1.5mph. This was on my 350ci.
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D&Z Performance
"Putting Power to the Pavement"
/91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73, 
