Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
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My friend welded these on for me with his ark welder for 50 bucks. I tried lifting the passenger side in the middle of the sfc and it started bowing really bad and I heard a few loud pops comming from the front of the sfc, I thought maybe a weld or the body broke but they looked okay. He told me one of the welds would look bad but it was because he went over it it a couple times because it kept burning holes in the sheetmetal.
Anyways, maybe someone here can tell me if these are legit welds.
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they definetly don't look great ,but i wouldnt say they are terrible either. I've saw worse anyways (mines) haha.
i would say they are not to the point that they are what i would consider unsafe ,but personally i'd like to see a little more welding coverage on most areas and more penetration in most as well.
They welds look like the surface metal was not clean at all. You should have taken the time to grind the paint and clean the dirt away before welding. If you were to take the time to do the cleaning you would have had a easy time welding plus it would look better. But anyways it is functional at least, and that is what counts.
6 of 10 is my score. They'll most likely hold up to what you'll throw at it. Not perfect though. They don't look good but it's an ark welder so it's gonna be more difficult than a MIG.
__________________ 1990 Eagle Talon w/ 4g63T 2.0L, AWD, 5sp manual
1987 Caprice 305 5.0L, HEI distributer & quadrajunk full mechanical swap.
They welds look like the surface metal was not clean at all. You should have taken the time to grind the paint and clean the dirt away before welding. If you were to take the time to do the cleaning you would have had a easy time welding plus it would look better. But anyways it is functional at least, and that is what counts.
Looks like they wer simply put into place & welded on. No surface prep, no paint striping, no cleaning.......
Arc welding is a bit too hot to be welding body sheetmetal with. Burns right through & I'd suspect teh majority of his "welds" are concentrated on the SFC, not the body.
They were not cleaned at all. The guy who did them said it would just burn through all that stuff anyways. The wire brush wheel he had was useless since I couldn't get it in any tight places.
What I'm most concerned about is that it is strong enough to keep the body from flexing. I don't really care how it looks.
considering that a stick welder was used,they don't look
too bad mig would have given cleaner results with
less burn through,also a lot of the underbody metal on
a third is galvanized,which is harder and messier to
weld cleanly(avoid breathing the nasty white fumes too ) If you are in a rust area,make sure to clean and paint
the welded areas
They were not cleaned at all. The guy who did them said it would just burn through all that stuff anyways. The wire brush wheel he had was useless since I couldn't get it in any tight places.
What I'm most concerned about is that it is strong enough to keep the body from flexing. I don't really care how it looks.
Sure a welder will burn through surface crap. The crap will also contaminate the weld intergrity.
Will they hold? Maybe. But judging by the creaking you heard, probably not for real long. I'd be willing to bet they will continue to flex, fail & eventually break. BTW, I'm speaking from experience & now have to reweld my stuff, 3 months later. He did zero cleaning. Just set the new plate in place & fired away, with his no gas MIG.
yeah, thats a pretty lousy job, i would get my 50 bux back. A arc welder has very little use on a car, and when you weld, i dont care what metal or with what kind of welder, you HAVE to clean the area first. It will NOT just burn through all that stuff. The welds will be contaminated and be weak and porous.
__________________ "with a big enough hammer, anything is possible"
"The one who dies with the most tools wins!"
looks pretty bad. The one pic you can see clearly where he punched thru in a couple of places that weakened that area.
The weld looked like he just gobbed it on. And if you heard stuff creaking and popping when jacking it iy won't last long.
As mentioned prep work is everything some times I sand blast the stuff before I weld and at the very least wire brush the area to bare metal before welding.
When I put the sfc's in my car I plan on practicing on welding thin metal to thick metal so I don't pop any holes thru the body.
So yall think I should grind and re-weld them? My dad is going to get me a stick welder for christmas and I was thinking maybe when I get some practice I could at least add some bridges to connect them to the pench or floor pan. Maybe even add some weld to those iffy looking places.
Grind, pull off....CLEAN both the the SFCs & the chassis at the meeting places, but don't try a stick welder. That is just a waste of time & effort. Get a MIG, learn to use it or have them done.
Last edited by Stephen; 10-29-2009 at 11:39 PM.
Reason: fixed mispellings
yeah, thats a pretty lousy job, i would get my 50 bux back. A arc welder has very little use on a car, and when you weld, i dont care what metal or with what kind of welder, you HAVE to clean the area first. It will NOT just burn through all that stuff. The welds will be contaminated and be weak and porous.
I'd be taking back my $50 then charging him $50 for the hassle of doing it over again to do it right.
From my experience, the area of the car thats the weakest is where the trans tunnel/floor pan joins the rear of the chassis. My tunnel is wrinkled in that area. Under the car, the rear subframe rails are also badly wrinkled from having to resist the torque from the engine. As such, there will be a lot of load transmitted to the area where the rear LCA bolts up. This area needs to be fully welded. In the pic above, there are just a few weak welds holding it in place. Those will almost certainly break when you turn up an incline or hit the gas.
I welded mine in with a flux core. Not the cleanest way to weld, to say the least. I directly welded each of the SFCs (Spohn SFCs, not UMI) directly to all three layers of the pinch-weld on both sides as well as to the front sub-frame rails and rear sub-frame rail/LCA mount. PITA as it takes multiple welds to build up the thin sheet metal enough to preven burn through. But, it really makes the car stiff when its properly welded. The car gives a nice, firm ride and no longer creaks and groans over bumps and I can jack the entire side of the car up from the SFC to change a tire.
Last edited by dimented24x7; 10-30-2009 at 06:22 AM.
Also, where are they welded? In the photos, it just looks like they attach at two points at the front subframe rail and rear LCA mount. To work properly, they must also tie into the floor pan area as well as the floor pan is the lower structure of the car. The way they are now, the SFCs wont provide any additional stiffness.
I was kidding......the car is NOT ruined! You learned something, which is good. We all make mistakes and learn from them. I have a 70 Chevelle and I have made more mistakes on that car than I ever care to count...........
__________________ Thanks!
Tony Z
1970 SS396 Chevelle with a 580 BBC
1974 Corvette Convertible
1992 Camaro B4C (SOLD)
1993 Firehawk
1998 Kawasaki ZX-9R
1997 Mazda Millenia
From my experience, the area of the car thats the weakest is where the trans tunnel/floor pan joins the rear of the chassis. My tunnel is wrinkled in that area. Under the car, the rear subframe rails are also badly wrinkled from having to resist the torque from the engine. As such, there will be a lot of load transmitted to the area where the rear LCA bolts up. This area needs to be fully welded. In the pic above, there are just a few weak welds holding it in place. Those will almost certainly break when you turn up an incline or hit the gas.
I welded mine in with a flux core. Not the cleanest way to weld, to say the least. I directly welded each of the SFCs (Spohn SFCs, not UMI) directly to all three layers of the pinch-weld on both sides as well as to the front sub-frame rails and rear sub-frame rail/LCA mount. PITA as it takes multiple welds to build up the thin sheet metal enough to preven burn through. But, it really makes the car stiff when its properly welded. The car gives a nice, firm ride and no longer creaks and groans over bumps and I can jack the entire side of the car up from the SFC to change a tire.
Exactly what I was planning, build up the thinner metal with multiple passes. I just bought today a Lincoln Electric migpak 180. And have started practicing already.
Elano this maybe the the type of work that if you want it done right ya gotta do it yourself. A fella could rent a mig welder for a week end at a time and practice and build up experience. All those holes he punched thru your better off as mentioned previously to pull it all off clean it good fill those holes and get her done right.
good luck man part of fixing up your car is the learning experience and skills you can aquire
__________________ I started racing when I was 7 years old and here I am now... KONI Yellows | Pro-Kit | J&M Strut Mounts | Edelbrock STB | Spohn SFC | 9-bolt disk 3.27
36mm/24mm | UMI Adj LCA/PHB/LCARB | Corbeau seats | plus more ...and I'm only 18
But anyways, I know this is a noob question. How should I go about grinding this off without tearing up the sheet metal? I have access to air tools and lots of different cutting bits. I want to do what the above poster said and rent a welder and mig it myself with a few weekends of practice beforehand.
For the record these SFCs have been on the car for over 4 months.
Also, where are they welded? In the photos, it just looks like they attach at two points at the front subframe rail and rear LCA mount. To work properly, they must also tie into the floor pan area as well as the floor pan is the lower structure of the car. The way they are now, the SFCs wont provide any additional stiffness.
Yes, they are only welded at the 2 front mounts and rear lca. The rear LCA is also welded on the inside of the mount, not just the little tacks that the picture shows.
Get you a 3.5" angle grinder & start grinding down the welds. With a 1/4" thick wheel, it'll take material off rather than simply cutting through (especially if you grind at an angle, not directly on the wheel edge) unlike a 1/8" wheel, like what I used to cut the sheetmetal for clearance for my 315s.
Well, all lessons cost money and if $50.00 is the most you ever spend for a lesson on getting others to work on your car you're doing great!!!! I'd suggest you take the car to a real welding shop, preferably one with a hoist or at least a tall ramp to get the car up in the air high enough to do the welding correctly. Another good place to check for a good welder that's used to welding overhead and out of position is an exhaust shop!!!! A lot of these guys have drive on ramps, which leaves the car "loaded" when the connectors are put in position. Proper surface preparation is crucial to good welding and with the junk GM treated theses cars with for rust prevention it takes a considerable amount of surface prep to get a decent weld. It would take a heck of a good welder with a stick and the car on jack stands to install the connectors correctly. When you're shopping for a "deal" on your car, it's best to consider "value" more then "price". or, in other words, you get (in this case got) what you paid for. Chalk it up as a lesson learned and hire a competent welder to do it correctly.....
__________________ Of course it's for sale!!! Everything is for sale!!!!
Camaro and other projects pictures can be seen at:
FOR GOD'S SAKE PLEASE nobody type in "angle grinder" in google images. It will show you what happens when the blade breaks and you don't have eye protection. **** I am never doing anything without eye protection again. No more sunglasses are good enough BS. Wow talk about wakeup call, I was drilling out motor mount rivets earlier today with no eye protection.
The guy I got to do this welds day in and day out. It's his job and I have seen many of the welds he's done on aluminum and steel and most all of them were "dime" welds. Too bad he half assed mine. It's been 4 months so getting my money back is out of the question.
I did some UMI SFCs, I did modify the passenger side piece that welds between the SFC and the subframe, the part that goes above the exhaust. This way it has a little more clearance. In the pic, I just used it to jack up the SFC (car on 4 post, couldn't get straight under the SFC)
I ground off the powdercoating just so far that the SFC can be welded on with the weld penetrating bare metal. Here's how it looks if you prepare the stuff properly and then weld it on. Make sure you grind all the way down to bare metal, there's a zinc coating on the steel and you have to remove it or it'll pop & spatter terribly and the welds will become contaminated and look like crap. The yellow and white residue you see in your pics is exactly that...zinc coating that burned away
If I had SFC's welded on and they looked like that, I'd sell the car........
One the other hand, you learned something. The prepwork on stuff like this is everything.
I was kind thinkin the same as you. Im NO WELDER per se. But if i paid ANYONE to weld my stuff or something as critical to handleing as SFC's i would expect nothing but perfection!!! But then again 50$ you get what you pay for. Good luck!!
__________________ 1986 Camaro Iroc-Z 350 TPI Corvette motor 700r4 trans, BMR strut tower brace,BMR adj.Panhard Rod,Energy Sway Bar links,Eibach Pro Kit,J&M street lower control arms,Accel Distributer,wires.Blacked out all lights.5% Limo tint all the way around.
Well, all lessons cost money and if $50.00 is the most you ever spend for a lesson on getting others to work on your car you're doing great!!!! I'd suggest you take the car to a real welding shop, preferably one with a hoist or at least a tall ramp to get the car up in the air high enough to do the welding correctly. Another good place to check for a good welder that's used to welding overhead and out of position is an exhaust shop!!!! A lot of these guys have drive on ramps, which leaves the car "loaded" when the connectors are put in position. Proper surface preparation is crucial to good welding and with the junk GM treated theses cars with for rust prevention it takes a considerable amount of surface prep to get a decent weld. It would take a heck of a good welder with a stick and the car on jack stands to install the connectors correctly. When you're shopping for a "deal" on your car, it's best to consider "value" more then "price". or, in other words, you get (in this case got) what you paid for. Chalk it up as a lesson learned and hire a competent welder to do it correctly.....
EXACTLY!!!!!
__________________ 1986 Camaro Iroc-Z 350 TPI Corvette motor 700r4 trans, BMR strut tower brace,BMR adj.Panhard Rod,Energy Sway Bar links,Eibach Pro Kit,J&M street lower control arms,Accel Distributer,wires.Blacked out all lights.5% Limo tint all the way around.
FOR GOD'S SAKE PLEASE nobody type in "angle grinder" in google images. It will show you what happens when the blade breaks and you don't have eye protection. **** I am never doing anything without eye protection again. No more sunglasses are good enough BS. Wow talk about wakeup call, I was drilling out motor mount rivets earlier today with no eye protection.
The guy I got to do this welds day in and day out. It's his job and I have seen many of the welds he's done on aluminum and steel and most all of them were "dime" welds. Too bad he half assed mine. It's been 4 months so getting my money back is out of the question.
Oh God! Why do I never listen when someone says don't?! That's disgusting... Also, I no longer feel that my normal glasses are good enough... Gonna get me some safety glasses.
I've grown up around machinists and in all kinds of garages so it is natural for me to wear safety glasses. Whenever I'm working, it actually doesn't feel right when they aren't there and sometimes I'll forget I still have them on. Heck, even my sunglasses are approved safety glasses. I mean it's not like they are uncomfortable. The designs have changed with the times so you don't have to wear the ugly box style safety glasses. I even wear safety glasses under my welding helmet.
__________________ I started racing when I was 7 years old and here I am now... KONI Yellows | Pro-Kit | J&M Strut Mounts | Edelbrock STB | Spohn SFC | 9-bolt disk 3.27
36mm/24mm | UMI Adj LCA/PHB/LCARB | Corbeau seats | plus more ...and I'm only 18
At least when I grind the sfcs off now I will know exactly where I need to clean for when they are welded on again.
I should be able to get a lot of it with the angle grinder, but I don't think it's going to work in the tight spots such as above the LCAs. Maybe I can get some of those with a grinding stone in a dremel. Anyways, these are definately comming off.
A dremel isn't going to cut it, you'll need something more powerful and a die grinder is going to take ages too. Zip discs are your best bet. You'll probably go through the original metal and will have to do some repairs first before you weld the SFCs back on. If I were you I would weld some nice base plates over the affected areas. Make it a patch larger than the area that your buddy destroyed and then drill some holes in it and do rosette welds and a full weld along the outside. Then after that is done, weld the SFCs back on. No sense on welding them back onto a weakened substructure.
Your buddies 50$ welding hackjob turned into a nightmare for you lots of work and possibly a lot more expenses. I feel for you, too bad you live half across the planet..I would have gladly helped you out there.
A dremel isn't going to cut it, you'll need something more powerful and a die grinder is going to take ages too. Zip discs are your best bet. You'll probably go through the original metal and will have to do some repairs first before you weld the SFCs back on. If I were you I would weld some nice base plates over the affected areas. Make it a patch larger than the area that your buddy destroyed and then drill some holes in it and do rosette welds and a full weld along the outside. Then after that is done, weld the SFCs back on. No sense on welding them back onto a weakened substructure.
Your buddies 50$ welding hackjob turned into a nightmare for you lots of work and possibly a lot more expenses. I feel for you, too bad you live half across the planet..I would have gladly helped you out there.
This sounds like a great idea......anybody close enough to help this young man?
__________________ Thanks!
Tony Z
1970 SS396 Chevelle with a 580 BBC
1974 Corvette Convertible
1992 Camaro B4C (SOLD)
1993 Firehawk
1998 Kawasaki ZX-9R
1997 Mazda Millenia
__________________ I started racing when I was 7 years old and here I am now... KONI Yellows | Pro-Kit | J&M Strut Mounts | Edelbrock STB | Spohn SFC | 9-bolt disk 3.27
36mm/24mm | UMI Adj LCA/PHB/LCARB | Corbeau seats | plus more ...and I'm only 18
So yall think I should grind and re-weld them? My dad is going to get me a stick welder for christmas and I was thinking maybe when I get some practice I could at least add some bridges to connect them to the pench or floor pan. Maybe even add some weld to those iffy looking places.
Its going to take more than a grind and reweld. Never go over a weld twice, if you do that, it will be way too brittle and snap in no time at all.
Stick welders are completely useless on a car PERIOD. Stick is for really beefy thick **** like 1/4" plate, not .095 sheet metal. The best all around welder for a car is a MIG (Metal Inert Gas) welder. It feeds a wire out and runs a set amount of current through the wire to get the proper weld.
Based on those pics, my opinion is that you'll need to cut out the SFC's, weld in patches everywhere there was a weld holding the SFC to the car (make sure the patches are the same thickness material as the cars floor pan), then do a proper prep of both surfaces before welding.
Your best surface prep would be a really good grinding/wire wheel for steel and grind both the car and SFC until you see bare metal. Then use a properly setup MIG welder to weld the SFC into place. Then heat treat the welds to relive any stress incurred by welding. A proper heat treat should be done in a dark area and the metal should just turn a dull cherry red. Thats your sign that the weld is now "Normalized".
Crap that sucks. For the price of labor to do all that work, I might as well just get a mig and do it myself. I'm looking at the Hobart Handler 140 since it is relatively inexpensive and can run off household power. I've been wanting to learn how to weld anyways.
I cant belive someone can do it so badly and not feel guilty about it. You should get your money back!
Don't confuse lack of knowledge with willfully doing something wrong. Alot of people think that the only way to weld is with a stick welder. You'd be surprised how many people don't know that there are other welding methods.
Alot of this stems from the construction industry where almost all the welding is done with a stick welder. Very rarely in a construction fab shop setting will you see a MIG welder (they call it a wire welder). Those guys are great welders, but they only work on thick stuff. The thinest stuff they might weld would be .125" steel.
Take a look at umi and spohns site some of the weld pics are not that pretty as long as they hold thats important.Grind them down a little then I would weld a little more were he did not.gind it all clean I welded mine with a mig I did alot of prep work first. using a grinder,dremel for a couple real tight spots.my welds look crappy but there solid.put some paint over all the welds and bare spots when your done.
Take a look at umi and spohns site some of the weld pics are not that pretty as long as they hold thats important.Grind them down a little then I would weld a little more were he did not.gind it all clean I welded mine with a mig I did alot of prep work first. using a grinder,dremel for a couple real tight spots.my welds look crappy but there solid.put some paint over all the welds and bare spots when your done.
Looks like they wer simply put into place & welded on. No surface prep, no paint striping, no cleaning.......
mig would have given cleaner results with
