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Old 03-13-2011, 09:22 PM   #1
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Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

so has anyone else on here bought a headliner from this place.... apparently i am the only one EVER that has had a problem with fitment. here are the pics of how it fits. there will be more to this story im sure as im in contact with him and it seems as though its going to be a battle. am i wrong in thinking the only reason it is this far off is due to a bad part or a mold that is getting old?

wish i had noticed how off the part was before i covered it..that was my bad.

i bought two of these one for me and one for another member of the boards, he is going to fit his tomorrow and ill have pics of it to. mark wants to see pics of the other one in that car i guess to prove that somehow my car is that far off...wonder what hes going to say when both parts in two different cars fit the same...

my car is a 1992 camaro
the other is a 1987 formula bird

any opinions guys?

in these pics all interior parts are connected except for the dome light...which with how off it is there is no possible way for it to go on
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg Headliner 1.jpeg (655.9 KB, 397 views)
File Type: jpeg Headliner 2.jpeg (775.2 KB, 333 views)
File Type: jpeg Headliner 3.jpeg (698.8 KB, 304 views)
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1992 Camaro RS 25th Anniversary
3.1L~3.4L t3/t4 Turbo Conversion
5 Speed Conversion
3.1 = 133hp and 178 tq =)
3.4 = 174hp and 210 tq N/A 3.4Turbo = ?

Last edited by Pillsbry10; 03-13-2011 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:26 PM   #2
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

There are two different kinds of T-tops, factory and aftermarket... they are not the same size... could that be what's going on here?

Yours looks like the aftermarket T-tops (Cars & Concepts).
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:35 PM   #3
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

No those are factory tops.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:51 PM   #4
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Check you body tag in door frame and see if it says body by fisher
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:28 AM   #5
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

They are factory T-tops, guys.
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:45 AM   #6
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

You can find allot of threads about fitment with glass liners from different folks, which makes me wonder if half of them didn't make a real mold from a car, but just a copy of someone elses glass liner that didn't fit either.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:52 AM   #7
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

WOW! It's way off!
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:45 AM   #8
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

According to mark it was a mold from an original headliner. If I push the center of it up into place everything lines up as it should but that takes a lot of force. I searched last night and didn't find a single review on fiberglass headliners. All the bad reviews were on the abs plastic ones which was a reason I went with these.

When deadbird's headliner doesn't fit we will see what happens but so far I'm not thrilled
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1992 Camaro RS 25th Anniversary
3.1L~3.4L t3/t4 Turbo Conversion
5 Speed Conversion
3.1 = 133hp and 178 tq =)
3.4 = 174hp and 210 tq N/A 3.4Turbo = ?
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:54 AM   #9
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

He offered a refund if I send them back at my expense which makes zero sense. It's not my car that's off. Shipping costs 140 dollars and it's 90 dollars with my discount. So I'd be out 180 in shipping for 250 dollars in refund not counting the material used.

Am I wrong in thinking he should just refund my 250 and I'll toss them in the trash?
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1992 Camaro RS 25th Anniversary
3.1L~3.4L t3/t4 Turbo Conversion
5 Speed Conversion
3.1 = 133hp and 178 tq =)
3.4 = 174hp and 210 tq N/A 3.4Turbo = ?
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:34 AM   #10
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

There is another thread about a turn signal switch, same exact situation....he wasn't satisfied with product, but they ask for him to pay return shipping plus 25% re-stocking fee. He even went so far as to contact the BBB and still no dice. It's a screwed up world we live in...the customer isn't always right anymore. You go to any store front, they are almost always willing to bend over backwards to please a customer...you go online and they are ruthless, sort of a "either you want it or not, take it or leave it" type attitude at times. Tell them that you are out all the money you spent on covering it already, and that you'll go half on shipping back to them. They have to realize your invested interest in this thing working in your car. Your not just an unruly customer.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:06 AM   #11
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

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Originally Posted by 84redta View Post
There is another thread about a turn signal switch, same exact situation....he wasn't satisfied with product, but they ask for him to pay return shipping plus 25% re-stocking fee. He even went so far as to contact the BBB and still no dice. It's a screwed up world we live in...the customer isn't always right anymore. You go to any store front, they are almost always willing to bend over backwards to please a customer...you go online and they are ruthless, sort of a "either you want it or not, take it or leave it" type attitude at times. Tell them that you are out all the money you spent on covering it already, and that you'll go half on shipping back to them. They have to realize your invested interest in this thing working in your car. Your not just an unruly customer.
nah, if you used a credit card, dispute the charge.

The problem is that most on-line "retailers don't really stock parts. They are just a web presence who advertises the productsd and sets up a web store. When they receive an order, they ask for payment in full. They then in turn must pay their supplier who stocks the items and they have a no return policy or a very punitive restock charge.

So, the "vendor" who "sold" you the item tries to cover their expenses.

stockinteriors.com carries the t-top headliner that fits and I believe 1A also sells the exact same item as stockinteriors.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:13 AM   #12
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

I won't pay to ship that back he guarenteed they fit it doesn't... The turn signal switch was crap too but on the other hand that part at least would fit and work it just looked different. I asked if he would make me two new ones if the other doesn't fit and he said he wouldn't waste the time or labor to do so that his mold is right and that's it.

This isn't like a hood or fender that could be off due to my car being off the roof isn't 4 inches to high

It took awhile to good my fiberglass hood lined up right I expected that, there's no way to make this fit wouthout cutting it up and re glassing which I shouldn't have to do
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3.1L~3.4L t3/t4 Turbo Conversion
5 Speed Conversion
3.1 = 133hp and 178 tq =)
3.4 = 174hp and 210 tq N/A 3.4Turbo = ?
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:19 AM   #13
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

These are made to order by marks company and are not the same as the abs ones from 1a auto
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3.1L~3.4L t3/t4 Turbo Conversion
5 Speed Conversion
3.1 = 133hp and 178 tq =)
3.4 = 174hp and 210 tq N/A 3.4Turbo = ?
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:53 AM   #14
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Pillsbry10--

Thanks for the tip!!!
If either of the 2 originals I tried to fix don't work, we were going to go with this company.
I'll be watching for the next install up date!!

Sounds like his mold is over-used & he needs to get another true fit OE piece to start over.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:25 AM   #15
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Don't worry I'll post everything good or bad I'm not out to screw anyone I just want a headliner that fits

He told me he's used the same mold for over 20 years and I'm the first to have a problem. Deadbird might be the 2nd we shall see
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3.1L~3.4L t3/t4 Turbo Conversion
5 Speed Conversion
3.1 = 133hp and 178 tq =)
3.4 = 174hp and 210 tq N/A 3.4Turbo = ?
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:17 PM   #16
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillsbry10 View Post
According to mark it was a mold from an original headliner. If I push the center of it up into place everything lines up as it should but that takes a lot of force. I searched last night and didn't find a single review on fiberglass headliners. All the bad reviews were on the abs plastic ones which was a reason I went with these.

When deadbird's headliner doesn't fit we will see what happens but so far I'm not thrilled
could of used a ABS one to make a mold, since it would be easy to pop out

Has to be a reason why so many from differnt folks don't fit though.

they either have just copied each others work, or its not really different people, or there are just allot of morons building parts.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:47 PM   #17
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Marks is the only fiberglass one I've seen.... All the fitment issues have been linked to plastic ones. The issues of the plastic are not the same as I'm seeing on this fiberglass one

If I push it up it fits perfect... Seems like a warped part more than a badly made part
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3.1L~3.4L t3/t4 Turbo Conversion
5 Speed Conversion
3.1 = 133hp and 178 tq =)
3.4 = 174hp and 210 tq N/A 3.4Turbo = ?
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:24 PM   #18
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Quote:
You can find allot of threads about fitment with glass liners from different folks
Of 249 posts, from present to dating back to 2003, I found none.
Only a few posts reference Mark's as a place selling fiberglass and even less referring to when TACreations sold them. Any 'fiberglass' posts about fitment are referring to the ABS ones. Similar to how people call the SMC plastic body parts 'fiberglass'.
Most any other question is asking if a fiberglass one is made and the rest are related to fiberglassing a broken/disintegrating stock liner.

Unfortunately, it seems that hall-assed made specialty parts are all that the market is willing to make for these cars. I can see the reasoning behind that as well, though.

As soon as I get all the loose parts out of my p.o.s. and clean up the shop a bit, I'm going to start with fitting mine (less the cloth )

I don't have hopes for a better result than Pillsbry, though.

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Old 03-14-2011, 03:06 PM   #19
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Cleaning but, here's mine. As it's easy to see, it came pre-twisted so chassis flex from high HP doesn't break it
More later...
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File Type: jpg !cid_197.jpg (25.5 KB, 158 views)
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:08 PM   #20
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Reading this thread is making me glad I have not purchased one yet. My head liner is in fair condition and when I get to that phase of restoring my Camaro, I wanted something more durable as a suitable replacement.

Has anyone had a GOOD expierence with an after market T-Top headliner?? Also is anyone able to compare a factory one next to Mark's Fiberglass one?? I'd be curious if there are just noticable differences between them sitting on a bench or on the floor.
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:21 PM   #21
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbird View Post
Cleaning but, here's mine. As it's easy to see, it came pre-twisted so chassis flex from high HP doesn't break it
More later...
What? pre twisted?

Ok I make special tires that come pre flatted so you don't have to worry about flats
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:26 PM   #22
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

subbed. i want to know how this turns out
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:47 PM   #23
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Maniac View Post
Reading this thread is making me glad I have not purchased one yet. My head liner is in fair condition and when I get to that phase of restoring my Camaro, I wanted something more durable as a suitable replacement.

Has anyone had a GOOD expierence with an after market T-Top headliner?? Also is anyone able to compare a factory one next to Mark's Fiberglass one?? I'd be curious if there are just noticable differences between them sitting on a bench or on the floor.
haha me and deadbird both did the same thing to our old headliners YEARS ago...they sagged...we fixed...they sagged... we fixed...they sagged....

we tore them out and threw them in the trash i havent had one since around 2003 lol so itd be hard to compare

there are a few threads on the plastic ones where people got lucky and got good ones, i havent seen a "recent" one lately though
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:02 PM   #24
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

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haha me and deadbird both did the same thing to our old headliners YEARS ago...they sagged...we fixed...they sagged... we fixed...they sagged....

we tore them out and threw them in the trash

You can say that for every GM I have owned.

The neatest but most cruel fix was using thumb tacks for that "quilted" look, till one falls out and lands on your seat, pin up and you don't see it.

in the trash it goes......
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:05 PM   #25
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

haha i used paper clips and staples once
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:07 PM   #26
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

While im not suprised at this point, it is a bit disappointing of the lack of quality, and with the headliner, too...
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:09 PM   #27
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

My phone takes pretty bad images...
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:13 PM   #28
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Overall, the fit is a far cry from good...
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:15 PM   #29
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Clamped as tight as it can go...
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:18 PM   #30
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

well i feel like that is proof enough that somewhere in the process something went wrong...two headliners two different cars...same result
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:23 PM   #31
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

The fit is far enough off to make it useless to even cut it apart and mod it back into something usable. The labor/time and material (glass/resin) alone would make it a $$ loss, even with a refund.

It's kind of a shame, really...
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:28 PM   #32
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

yeah i was going through that in my head earlier i feel like a full refund is needed including shipping at the very least... if he wants them back ill gladly ship them with my discount at his expense
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:23 PM   #33
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

well i have the email ready to go to him tomorrow im going to send the pictures and then call as i have his cell phone number. ill be sure to post how it goes...im sure ill have to take some kind of loss on this which is bull crap but im going to fight for every penny. wish me luck
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:47 PM   #34
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Good Luck
Pillsbry10 & deadbird!!

SIGH........
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:04 PM   #35
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-top havoc View Post
Good Luck
Pillsbry10 & deadbird!!

SIGH........
so i hope for your sake your not going to use that company for a headliner
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Old 03-15-2011, 01:54 AM   #36
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

With all the crap I have heard lately on how a nice aftermarket headliner doesn't exist that fits good, I am DEF recovering my original to put back into my car. My brother just bought a 91 firebird with one of the ABS headliners in it and it looks like crap in a few spots. Doesn't fit tightly up to the roof at all, and in spots that are in plain sight too. It really is a shame that you spend that much money on something that was designed with all the technology we have in this day and age and it looks like complete crap. Maybe these cars will get the quality parts they deserve someday...

Best of luck to you two on resolving the issue and getting at least part of a refund.
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:16 AM   #37
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

I'm just going to pop in with one of those "rare" good ABS headliner stories.

Found a berlinetta in the junk yard...looked around it, saw a mint black headliner, went to drop it, and it is made of plastic, thought great. Well it seems that this is really thin plastic...not thick as I would assume the "abs" ones are, but it fits nicely, and if i wasn't lazy throwing my ttops in the back seat and using the right tools to put my overhead console in, it would be perfect still.

I just need to figure out how the hell everyone else has an easy time wrapping ttop headliners around the corners and I'll probably reinforce and re-wrap the plastic backed one i have. Otherwise, I think i'm just going to resin my factory headliner in my camaro when I again...figure out how to wrap that one.

Moral of the story...there are good ones out there...I just couldn't tell you where to get it, either that, or if the ABS ones are as thin as my headliner backing is, then I'm one of those fluke ABS backed perfect headliners.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:11 AM   #38
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

You know. I have been on marks site and never ordered because it looks as if the molds he are using are from 20 years ago. The site looks as if it is from 2O years ago, and his prices definatly reflect a time when fiberglass was a little less comman and a lot more work was involved. Short of his headliner of course. It does seem priced about right if it was a good product.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:47 PM   #39
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

they are from 20 years ago and he swears up and down that its a good mold.

talked to him today and he is paying shipping for the parts back however im not real happy with it. i still feel i should get shipping back that i paid for his crap part. here are the emails from today. once i get money back im doing a huge write up in the vendor review for everyone.

my first email to him


On Jan 12, 2011, at 4:20 AM, "Mark Scrivani" <mark@markscustomkits.com> wrote:

I wouldn’t still be in business after 20+ years if I sold crap….







From: pillsbry10@aol.com [mailtoillsbry10@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:30 PM
To: kittbuilder@embarqmail.com
Subject: Re: fiberglass headliner



hows the fitment on those things....and be honest lol i realize fiberglass parts arent always perfect, looking for something better than the crappy plastic rolled up one that is available
Steve



now todays

Please box up both headliners back into the same box as they were shipped. I have issued a Return Label with UPS. You should be receiving an electronic label you need to print out and hand to driver upon pickup.



Once the box is received, a credit will be applied to your card.



Sorry this didn’t fit. Hope you find one that works better.



Mark

(wrote that instead of calling me back after our phone convo this morning)



I'll box them up asap and get them out. However that still leaves me at a loss of 154.00 on a part that didn't fit be it your fault or GM. Two different cars installed by two different people. It'd be different if I just didn't like the product but it's advertised as fitting and it didn't and was nowhere close. I refuse to eat all that loss and I shouldn't have to. We need to work this out before I ship. Feel free to call me back as I'm available at all times.
Steve

Sent from my iPhone



If you order a fender, do you paint it before fitting it onto the car? No.

I cannot reimburse you for having the headliner covered BEFORE you attempted the fitting.



I am eating the cost of return freight myself, plus the loss of labor and material for making them. I will not be able to use the one already covered, because no one uses that color, they all want Tan.

So I am out far more than you.



I will refund your original purchase, but that’s all.



Mark

p.s.
And when someone orders a part “out-of-the-mold”, cuts it, modifies it, etc. to install in their car, or ON their car, and then for whatever reason wants a refund, I do NOT give refunds.



Ya know I'll agree I shouldn't have trusted that the product would fit and covered it. However the shipping charge is refundable and should be. Any other company that sells you a product that doesn't fit(clearly) would offer a new or refund full cost of part and shipping. Since your un willing to make a headliner that fits I'm requesting the shipping charge back as well. I don't know how many t-top cars I need to put these in before you realize they don't fit. The fact that your going to reuse one that doesn't fit is bad business. If you want I'll put it in another car just to prove the point. If it doesn't fit in two totally different year cars y would it fit in another? The problem is on your end not gm's

PS.
In order to see clearly if it would fit I had to cut the required holes in the headliner for final fitment. Holes that should have been in the headliner anyways.

Sent from my iPhone



so no response back from the last email there and i honestly dont expect one...beware of buying his headliners... more updates as they come
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:20 PM   #40
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillsbry10 View Post
so i hope for your sake your not going to use that company for a headliner
At this point I agree.
How many has he sold to satisfied customers in the last 3 yrs??
I can in all honesty say " my 'glassed headliners are guaranteed to fit-
I've done it for 2 yrs with no complaints or returns! "

However--
Nor have I tried to completely install either of the 2 'liners yet, just held them up in place & they *appear* to be very close to spot on...LOL!!!
Couple more weeks before I get a day to devote to putting interior back together. One of the better ABS installs I've seen pics of was by
Caveman305.

I would imagine someone with a near mint headliner & skill could make a dozen from 'glass or carbon fiber & sell them for a fair price and still make a decent profit!!
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:58 PM   #41
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

I think alot these bad parts that are coming out are from companies that A) don't own and test fit on the specific cars the parts that are made for. They get there hands on a part and make a mold and sell it. Get it out the door is what my last boss would say. B) Have the part made somewhere else at a lower cost so they can make more profit( made in china or the far east) and where there is lower quality standards.

I own 2 thirdgens and if i ever made parts to sell i would make sure it would fit either(or both depending on the part) before it was sold to the public. I have always took pride in my work but i have found out as i've got older seems no one else does. I used to work for a company that built cooling towers and air strippers and we'd load metal platforms with wet paint onto flatbed trucks to be shipped out immediately. The plant manager said it will dry along the way. I would be p***ed off if i bought something that had dirt, pepples and chips in it as it was delivered.

This is the attitude we face in this day and age. Nobody can fess up to their own mistakes and try to make things better.

Goes back to the old saying..."Buyer Beware"
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:57 PM   #42
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Quote:
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I used to work for a company that built cooling towers and air strippers and we'd load metal platforms with wet paint onto flatbed trucks to be shipped out immediately. The plant manager said it will dry along the way.
Unfortunately pride, quality and craftsmanship are in short supply these days due to many reasons not thirdgen (or vendor review) related. Sadly, it's not going to get better either.

Even classic resto parts are, mostly, junk.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:48 AM   #43
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Id hate to say it but the fiberglass parts world has that attitude allot of time that you get what you get out of the mold.

And often they use the same mold 300 parts pasts it prime cause it "cost" to much to make a new one or have a high dollar one that won't change shape built.
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Old 03-16-2011, 07:54 AM   #44
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

His response

What part of “out of the mold” do you not understand. It is clearly described on the company website.
*
My decision stands; I will refund your original purchase price of both headliners ONLY.
*
Mark



I'm done responding.... But what part of your product is crap do you not understand?

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Old 03-16-2011, 08:01 AM   #45
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

At least I know I'll get my money lost by knowing no one on this board will buy from him. If you search google this thread pops up first page so everyone will see. Thanks TGO
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Old 03-16-2011, 09:58 AM   #46
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

have you logged a dispute with the credit card company?
There are avenues to pursue and a dispute is one such avenue. In fact, it works quite well.

Oh, and my 3rd gen is not a t-top but I have ZERO fitment issues with the ABS headliner resold by stockinteriors.com
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Old 03-16-2011, 10:46 AM   #47
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Right now I'm getting part price back but not shipping and i paid shipping in cash so no hope there.

The t-top ones have been the issue

The fact that he is going re sale that junk is some and I hope everyone reads this and stays away
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Old 03-16-2011, 07:48 PM   #48
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-top havoc View Post
At this point I agree.
How many has he sold to satisfied customers in the last 3 yrs??
I can in all honesty say " my 'glassed headliners are guaranteed to fit-
I've done it for 2 yrs with no complaints or returns! "

However--
Nor have I tried to completely install either of the 2 'liners yet, just held them up in place & they *appear* to be very close to spot on...LOL!!!
Couple more weeks before I get a day to devote to putting interior back together. One of the better ABS installs I've seen pics of was by
Caveman305.

I would imagine someone with a near mint headliner & skill could make a dozen from 'glass or carbon fiber & sell them for a fair price and still make a decent profit!!
the biggest problem with making them is they cost sooooo much to ship
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:35 PM   #49
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

Shipping can be $$!!!

Ok, so I have a set back myself!! Somehow, " No body "& " I don't know " got into my headliners & broke the driver side windshield arm or wing or whatever it's called on both of them!!! Rant rant..........
I guess I'll be spending a few hours trying to fix them!!
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:49 PM   #50
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Re: Fiberglass Headliner - Marks Custom kits

the qoutes right now for that big of a box are around 135-145 just in shipping costs
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1992 Camaro RS 25th Anniversary
3.1L~3.4L t3/t4 Turbo Conversion
5 Speed Conversion
3.1 = 133hp and 178 tq =)
3.4 = 174hp and 210 tq N/A 3.4Turbo = ?
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:49 PM
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1992 Camaro




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