Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
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Hey Shagwell - Yea, I finally got it late last week. I have a few more small parts to get, but I'm not going to pull the motor until after Christmas. I just don't have the time right now, you know how it gets around this time of year.
I know how that goes. My Christmas present was to me, in the form of my new motor. I'm still tunning, but just from playing you can tell this things gonna thump! I went carbbed for the moment though. I'm saving up for the Stealth Ram. - good luck!
Nothing really new here - yet. The Holidays have had me very busy, so I haven't had any car time in the past 5 or 6 weeks. I just today ordered a new double roller timing set, Magnum push rods, and 1.52 roller tip rockers from Comp Cams. All that stuff should be here in few days. I'm going to start out with 1.52s all around, and then move up to the 1.6s (that I currently have) if I think that it will help any. I'm hoping to do the cam change within the next few weeks, when I can get a couple of days free to work on the car. I'll keep you updated on my progress.
Yes, as 86 IROC quoted from my sig, I have a SDPC TPI intake. I received one from the first batch they shipped out to the public. I have done no additional porting to it (not yet anyway), but it still has perfromed very well for me to date.
hey guys wondering if you could help me out a sec, i've been throwing around ideas of what to do with my car lately, i want mid 12's with option to build further later on, i think i might go with a similar setup to your's, mike crews. i can buy a stroker kit that includes Scat 9000 Crank(good to 550 hp), Forged 4340 rods, KB Hypereutectic Pistons, all bearings(crank and rods),all i need are piston rings, for 700 dollars, wondering if that's too much? or a good deal or what?......that's not installed
Just noticed your initial post.
What are cam specs (@ .050")?
Flat power partly due to long runners on TPI. I'm thinking up a doable way to reduce length a bit . I think such a change would be worth 30 HP to you...
Jason, it sounds to me like 300 for the crank, 200 for the rods, and 200 for the pistons = $700. It sounds OK, but not like a "great" deal (at least to me). The guy that built my shortblock did not want to use a Scat crank or KB pistons, but I think that was just his own personal preference. Sorry that I'm of no help.
Axlenut, it sounds like you've got a lot of reading to do to catch up in this post. Read through it if you like, and it will answer a lot of the questions that you might have. My LPE 74211 cam is 221/219, .499/525 w/1.5s, but I am switching to a CC XR269 in a week or two. No more new runners for me - I'm sticking with the AS&M SS LTRs.
I know its kinda late in the subject to be chiming in , but....
I was just curoius if anyone has performed a cranking psi test on there engine? I know that is a good way to tell if you the correct duration setup compared to your static compression. but i will be honest all my knowlege when it comes to high performance is mostly book related . though i do have little hands on experience , do to a 3yr auto/hi.po college i attended . I hope to see what all my research and schooling will do for me when i get my engine built .
hey Jason , 700 for crank , rods , kb pistons sounds prettty good .
I just bought 9000 crank for $190.00 , 4340 6 inch scat rods for $250.00 and plain on buying k.b pistons . I have some friends that are over the 600hp with that setup . I plain on getting my crank turned .030 under to increase its strength , and lower my bearing speed . Also i would reccomend a 6 inch rod to get your rod ratio back to a more optimal level . :lala:
yea the rods are 6 inch, supposedly they're pretty good, the price that he laid out for me of what he paid for everything goes like this....
crank - 350
rods - 479
pistons - 335
that seems a little high, but i know him pretty well and don't think he would try and rip me off.
mike crews - have you had to beef up your 700r4, or is it stock? right now i have all this stuff planned and money is going to be tight but i should have everything done by spring time, (engine, interior, and exterior) but i don't have enough budget right now to rebuild the tranny, probably going to break the second i get on it, but oh well we'll see. thanks.
I had my 700R4 rebuilt to pretty much 4WD specs, in order to handle all the torque. It was the only type of rebuild that the guy would warranty for me, knowing that I was going to run a stroker motor. He had to do some machine work to the internals in order to increse the number of clutches in the trans, but it is basically very similar to a 700R4 that you would find in a 4WD truck, just some more high performance parts on it. I think that it was about $900 for my rebuild. I've been runnng the tranny hard for at least 3 years now with no problems at all.
I still have not had time to get the new cam in. I'm waiting for some warmer weather, so it may still be a few more weeks.
I have been looking into cranks myself. I wanted to do a cast steel, because steel cranks are harder on bearings. I have been doing some research and have been hearing a lot of horror stories on Scat cast-steel cranks(9000 series). I have a couple of friends who just bought them and have had a lot of balance problems. Our local shop is really good and has been in business for years. He had serious problems trying to get either crank to balance, and said that he wouldn't put either one in his ex-wife's car. He had to take like 15 grams off the front and 160-200 of the back! WAAAAYYY to much varience. - I ordered a new 4340 forged steel for $420 from Ohio Crankshaft.
- sorry this is soo long and off of Mike's post, just my $02.
Also, we called Scat and they said " we're sorry, the cores must have slipped during the machining process. We can sell you another one w/ a 10% discount..."
just wondering , I was going to build a 350 for my 91 camaro ( 305 TPI right now ) Do you all feel That a 383 would be a better choice. I been trying to come up with a setup , 10.0 - 1 compression, Edelbrok heads 60 cc . 216 int. 228 exh. for my TPI.
Now I have been looking for Tq in the low to mid range. TPI is known for. Just is it worth the extra effort ( & money) to set it up as a 383 ?
Well if you are attempting to internally or neutral balance a crank all kinds of stuff can pop up and make it a big ordeal. You can pretty much count on having to add a bunch of heavy metal to it at about 50$ a puck plus about 25$ install. If you are gonna spin big rpm and plan on switching between auto and manual transmissions this is the way to go. If you have a plan to run on the street and keep your trans for awhile just buy an external balance crank. If you are on a budget there is no need to get caught up in the hype of running full forged and internally balnced. Case in point: my buddy runs a 1250$ race crank that he bought for about half price but still ended up putting 350$ into balancing out his assembly. I on the other hand just bought the Eagle 383 kit. I bought it when Jegs had 10% off for the holiday and got it delivered for 840$. With this I got KB pistons, eagle rods, the eagle cast crank, new bearings, auto flexplate, 8 inch harmonic balancer and yes the kit came externally balaced out of the box. Plug it in and go, no need to drag it to the machine shop. Alot of guys just buy the crank for like 300$ but then have to lug it with the rods and pistons to be balanced which is about 150$ if all they have to do is drill it out. So now you got 450$ plus 250$ in new pistons 100$ in rods 60$ in 8inch balancer stock rods reconditioned ???$. Anyway you see where I am going with this. If you got a bunch of money to throw around then buy all the best parts you can afford. If you want a seet motor that will hold upto 500hp just spend the lousy 930$ on the Eagle kit and put the rest of yopur money into other areas of the car. Anyway just my .02.
Well the Scat 9000 series cranks must be getting better. The one I just had balanced with my rotating assembly was so close to being balanced the race shop I took it to made a comment and asked were I purchased it. On the down side, the GM powdered metal LT1 rods I bought were not so good. I purchased a set from SDPC that was supposedly shot peened, polished, and magnafluxed. The shop said that there was considerable variances in the rods. I was under the impression that these powdered metal rods were more uniform. I was reading the latest Hot Rod and the had a picture of a speed pro piston that looks like the ones I purchased, but in the caption they call it a hyper. It prompted me to go look at my short block. The number on the piston is L2256F. I hope SDPC did not pull a fast one on me
I had my 700R4 rebuilt to pretty much 4WD specs, in order to handle all the torque. It was the only type of rebuild that the guy would warranty for me, knowing that I was going to run a stroker motor. He had to do some machine work to the internals in order to increse the number of clutches in the trans, but it is basically very similar to a 700R4 that you would find in a 4WD truck, just some more high performance parts on it. I think that it was about $900 for my rebuild. I've been runnng the tranny hard for at least 3 years now with no problems at all.
I still have not had time to get the new cam in. I'm waiting for some warmer weather, so it may still be a few more weeks.
Later - Mike.........
Hey Mike, I have been reading this topic for quite awhile and there is quite a bit of useful info here. One thing I am kinda wondering is messing with a good thing bad in this case? Your motor is very strong as is with the exception of the upper rpm's. As we all know we understand the flow charactistics of the LTRs so getting the HP up isn't gonna happen without a swap or something and that is something you have eluded to not doing (understandable) So why not maybe like you said earlier try lower gear ratios or even go to a larger tire? To run a 11.99 right now you would have to trap about 110-112 roughly going off your other timeslips. Which you eluded to the fact that you were at 5K going through the traps correct? It's a long thread and I may have mixed info up? Anyways, if that is the case you will never get the topend pull from the motor if it is over geared. I would maybe think about putting a set of 28" slicks on it if you know somebody that has a set that would fit on your car and try em out if you go back to the track before your cam swap and see if that drops you down alittle. Your motor has the low end to pull 28" tires I'm sure as well you are.
I just did some calculations and here is what I am getting for trap speeds in relation to rpms taking into account that 3rd gear is 1:1 with both 26" and 28" tires and I threw a comparision of 3.45's in there too.
107 mph with 26" tires and 3.27's = 4525 rpm
110 mph with 26" tires and 3.27's = 4652 rpm
110 mph with 28" tires and 3.27's = 4320 rpm
110 mph with 28" tires and 3.45's = 4433 rpm
I don't know if this is any help, but I hope it is anyways.
That is some very interesting information. Variations of gear ratios and tire sizes are a little out of my area of expertise. So far I've stayed with mostly stock sized stuff. I have tried the 3.70 gear in the car, and it likes the 3.27 much better, so it goes to reason that it might also like a larger tire. It's funny that you mention this, because I am looking into buying a set of "bigs & skinnies" to run on the car after I do the cam swap (like a set of Telstars or Convo Pros with MT ET Streets). I could obviously get a 26 or a 28 inch tire. I'll have to think some more about that.
Anyway, I want optimize the peformance of the engine first (with my LTR setup), then I'll play with the drivetrain (plus I've already bought all my parts). I know that I am cheating myself out of some hp with the 211 intake on the LPE cam. The 74211 cam is a great cam, but it is just a little too small for a 383 (imho). LPE used this cam in most of his old LTR 383s, but even they have stepped up and now use a bigger cam, but they don't list the specs. GMHTP recommends a 215/222 cam for a LTR 383, and they are usually pretty conservative with LTR cams. I am expecting to pick up "new" hp starting at about 3800 rpm, and going all the way a new peak at about 5300 ish with the XR269. This SHOULD equate to about 40+ more usable rwhp right across the entire LTR powerband. My torque #s should remain basically unchanged, but will move up the rpm about 300 - 500 rpm. My plan is to keep all my low end and mid range, but pick up the extra higher end hp that I need (to get my mph up as you mentioned). My current torque converter should still work fine with the new cam. This is relatively a low dollar investment to pick up the kind of N/A hp that I am expecting. I will probably do the cam swap next weekend, (as I'm re-roofing my house this weekend ). I guess I'll know more after I get the new cam in, dyno the car and get it to the track. Hopefully I won't fall prey to the dreaded "messing up a good thing" that you speak of, but that's what makes alll this stuff so much fun!! If I do mess up, at least I know where I need to get back to (plus I'll already have the parts) .
Here is a gear ratio and tire height calculator. You can plug in different gear ratios and tire heights to see what the net effeect would be on yout rpm range as you change them out. Also the new cam might bump your rpm peak up a few hundred rpm. 2600rpm seems a little shallow as far as your converter is concerned. Are you still in your window to have it adjusted with PI? I am about to order a 3000rpm Vig for my Superram combo but still tossing around the idea of a 3200rpm unit.
Slp_firehawk - Yes I have t-tops. I kind of wish that I didn't, as I seldom ever use them. When I had my car painted, I had all the weather stipping replaced, so they don't leak or squeak. The car used to flex like crazy until I welded in the Spohn SFCs, and that fixed the problem.
Ominous_87 - Thanks for the calculator. I'll play around with it to see what I can learn. I called PI, and the girl that I spoke with said that she wasn't concerned with the 2600 stall in my new combo. The two primary factors she discussed with me were the 3.27 gear that I'm still running, and the fact that my car is making so much crazy torque that I'm probably already stalling in the 2800 - 2900 range. I told her that I'm still shifting at 5500. However, I'm still in my adjustment window if I feel the need to have the stall changed.
I will start on my cam change this afternoon, but I won't finish it until next weekend due to time constraints and other commitments.
good i was afraid that my car was going to still flex like crazy even with subframe connectors.
i'm starting to strip down my motor today, clean stuff up, and probably start grinding away the clearances for the 6 inch rods.
mike, what did you have your machine shop do to your block to change over to 383, like bore, hone, mill....etc....i don't know what most of those things mean. i want to make sure the place i go to doesn't rip me off or something, i've never dealt with one before. also is it possible to have bigger valves put onto vortec heads? worth it?
I had my machine shop build (assemble) my longblock for me. I bought all the parts, and he put it all together (because I am certainly no "expert" either). This included tanking/boiling the block, .030 cylinder bore, clearance the block for the crank, resize and recondition my stock rods, grinding the rods bolts to clear the camshaft, bowl blending the heads, instaling screw in rocker arm studs and new Manley valves, installing/degreeing the cam, and all the other little stuff required for assembly. I basically let him do what he wanted, because said he would warranty his work (against any "catostrophic failure" for 1 year) if I followed his recommendations - and the engine has help up perfect. I didn't do a lot of fancy stuff to my short block, it was basically just a budget buildup. He recomended NOT installing bigger valves in the Vortecs (I wanted to). He just recommended moving up to a stock size Manley valve for strength and reliability (plus maybe a bit more low lift flow). My guy has had a lot of experience with vortec heads, and he said in his experience moving up in valve size would make little to no difference (so I didn't do it). However, I know that it is possible to put 2.02/1.60 valves in Vortec heads if you want to do it. I think there are some people on the board who have done it.
Hopefully that answers some of your questions. Oh yea, watch out for the metal shim in the oil pan gasket hitting the rod bolts, as it will sound like a rod is hitting the pan (the left rear corner of the oil pan). You may have to grind off a bit of the shim (I had to).
I agree on the vortec valve size. Vortec heads have a very small 64cc combustion chamber. You have to be able to get the air out from behind the valve, and larger valves get shrouded to much by the small chamber size. If you grind on the chamber much, then you might as well run regular L98 heads. - Stick w/ the 1.94/1.5's. - Good luck! - and to Mike, Good luck...again...!
Poorly designed combustion chambers and shrouded valves have nothing to do with combustion chamber size. Installing larger exhaust valves is one og the biggest hop ups you can do for the vortecs as increasing the intake valve proves to be a waste of money. Vortecs need something to free up the exhaust flow because out of the box they leave something to be desired.
The reason the vortecs or so great is the price vs the performance . If you keep working with changing valve size , porting . Than the price vs performance goes down . At that point you could step up to a aluminum head and be at the same point as the ported vortec but with stock aluminum head .
I have been reading this post for ever "wow its long" but very interesting. I was just wondering if you wanted to sell the LPE 211 cause im getting ready to buy the same cam for my TPI 350 buildup? If so shoot me an email Cedoe@msn.com with a price.
I paid $400.00 for my heads (a REALLY big favor to me), but my heads have EVERYTHING done to them that would make them the best that this casting has to offer. (They came from a circle track car with a 350ci SBC that made over 500+ HP).
Wellllllllll - I was almost done (putting the intake stuff together) with my engine re-assembly after my cam swap, when I dropped a coil mounting screw into the engine. The screw fell all the way through the engine and landed in the oil pan - amazing actually. After a few minutes (and drinks) to calm my nerves, I had to pull the engine back out of the car and extract the screw from the oil pan. Right now the engine is sitting on the stand in the garage (again). I will put it back in this weekend, and I'll dyno test right after that. Oh well.
And I know this sucks to suggest this AFTER you pulled it already, but I did almost the same thing, 'cept it was a small bolt I was using to mount a delay box on a race car...it fell in the distributor hole and went all the way to the pan......
After cussing ALOT.....the guy who owns the car called his Uncle. He said to get a big magnet. then he said drain the oil, and sometimes you'll get lucky at it will come out with the oil.......it didn't. So we used the magnet and just kept making slow passes towards the drain hole until we heard something move. Took about an hour and alot of beers but it came out.
__________________
Chris
85 IROC - Rebuilt T5,TPI 350, Hedman headers, and few other mods. Possibly for sale, email or PM if interested, LOTS of MODS and EXTRA parts included......
'03 GMC Z71 5.3 POSI..... stock for now
I was putting a cam in my 90 silverado when I dropped a lifter! It ende up in the pan. I tried to see if I could drop the pan, but it got hung up on all the 4wd stuff. In disgust I hit the the bottom of the loose pan. The lifter popped out and hit me right in the family jewels. I was never so happy to feel that bad.
I've been following this thread for some time now and it's awesome. I just bought a 350 (4-bolt w/ 1 piece rear main seal) block and a set of vortec heads for a build up. I'm in California, so emissions are an issue. Being a total n00b in this area, I'm wondering if I can expect to pass emissions with the Comp Cams XR269HR-12 that you guys have been talking about.
Also, I'm going to have to pay someone to do my prom tuning so I called a shop near LA... called TurboCity . They charge $250 for the chip + $50 per hour for tuning (have to take your car to them). Their programmer told me I should be looking at 24lb injectors to start. I'd really like to buy the right size the first time. Supposing I do a similar build up as you guys with regards to induction and head work, can you guys shed some light on the injector size I should be running?
ctandc - Before I decided to pull the motor, I was able to stick my little "magnet on a stick" in through the oil pan drain hole and grab the screw. Unfortunatley, the screw was too big to go through the drain plug hole. Then I was going to jack up the motor and try to pull the pan, but it was just as quick to pull the motor out, plus I was scared that the pan might leak if I went that route.
vexter - I can't really say if the XR269 would pass emissions or not, as I have never dealt with any emissions testing issues. As far as the injector size goes, I'm pretty new to this too, so I just searched the board, read all I could find, and settled and a set of Bosch 24/25 pound variable flow injectors (for a 383). I've seen 350s with injectors from 22# to 30+#, but so much of it will depend on matching your PROM tuning to your injector size.
hey all...I havent been following this thread lately but thought that I could contribute. Mods are in sig.
I have got some nice numbers with my Vortecs and GREATLY increased the flow on the exhaust running a Holley 1.60 exh. valve. These valves are take offs from their systemax head.
Out of the box with ZERO tuning and a crappy 1.95 60' it went 13.13 @106 mph. I also broke 3rd gear in my stock 700R4 on that pass and the car bucked and did all kinds of weird stuff through the traps.
My mph tells me that w/ the new trans, tuning(which I am currently working on), a tire and a good stall I will be mid 12 EASILY....hoping for low 12's actually.
When the car was a bolt on car (headers being biggest mod) it went 11.72 w/ a less than 150 shot.
Now, with all mods it has went in the 10.80's but the trans was on its way out...slipping real bad in third and finally blew up. Again, those 10.80's were with crappy 60' times due to the stock converter, traction, etc. The track I go to MMP in West Palm Beach is the biggest POS track in the country....yes I am serious. I run 26" tall slicks and at other tacks run 1.5-1.6 60's at this track i run 1.9's...YOU do the math .....lets not forget tho...the humidity is so ridiculous that the track is LITERALLY "wet", so that accounts for most of the "slowness".......they shouldnt even allow cars to run on nights like these
well, the whole "sleeper" thing I was going for is now gone. It sounds like it runs what it runs. Granted, there are still some small tuning issues throughout so that is a factor as well.
On the upside, brakes are good still....plenty of vacuum.
I think this is most probably THE best cam you can get for a set-up like mine. P.S> no I'm not bias, I'm educated on the matter.
To chevyboy07 91 - the XR269 being the "best" cam for a ~10:1 vortec 350 to 406 isn't actually correct. It is a good choice, but you have to look at how much your heads and intake flow and where it flows it at in the RPM range (flow bench) in order to make a more wise decision. If your intake only breaths to 4,800 r's like a stock TPI, then the XR269 would be a bad choice (too big). The XR269 makes power upto 5,500 r's. With an intake that flows to 5,500, it would be a good choice.
Then you have to look at whether you can tune your PROM to properly optimize your combo. Believe me, that in itself is a BIG job!! Tuning the PROM for a big cam sucks!
Anyways, I went bigger than that and even though I still have many more PROM changes to make as I tune and I need gears bad (stock 3.23's), I still put 7 links on a lid and cat-back (bolt-on)LS-1 TA (I shut it down at 100mph) and I ran 11.80 @ 112 on a g-tech (yes, I know the g-tech isn't perfect!!).
So, to all who plan on using the XR269 or the XR276, plan to do a whole bunch of computer tuning. On a brighter note, it's well worth it!
:lala:
Oh yea,
To Mike Crews - good luck with the swap! Cant wait to compare notes!!
Mike (1bad91Z)
__________________ 1991 Z-28 (Black - Hardtop) 355ci TPI/SLP, Ported Vortec heads, Comp XR276HR-12, Hooker 2210 Longtubes / custom 3" Y-pipe with 3 1/2" mufflex cat-back, Borg Warner T-56, PROM tuned by me!, 3.73's, Hotchkis suspension, custom high-flow lid and ram-air, ALL the bolt-ons, custom Boyd Coddington "1bad91Z" Billet Wheels.
91 Z...absolutely right. I have MAJOR friggin tuning issues from what I keep hearing. Anyway, I do have a PCM sponsor right now and we are working on this matter.
When this trans gets in, we will be able to get back to testing and dialing this thing in some more. Right now the best I had the car running was on an SLP prom....so that should say i have pretty good room for improvement.....**I HOPE**
wouldn't www.fastchips.com burn a good chip for you if you asked them to? if you told them all the specs about your car, wouldn't it come out to close to perfect?
No. They are guessing at best. My father has a farily mild 350 TPI in his 68' Chevy truck, from initailly running the new motor - it's going to take quite a few adjustments to make it run better. BTW - it has an Ed Wright chip.
__________________ 2001 Camaro SS - M6 #4948 4XXRWHP/4XX RWTQ
1972 SS 454 Chevelle - F/S build in progress.
2000 Z28 A4 - 10.777 @ 124.94 MPH - 1.511 60' - 10 second street car. SOLD
1991 Z28 5.7L - Sold, and missed.
how's your 383 afr miniram combination run? have any dyno numbers and track times? i'm still toying around if i should go strictly track, or go with vortecs and do budget street/strip
). I guess I'll know more after I get the new cam in, dyno the car and get it to the track. Hopefully I won't fall prey to the dreaded "messing up a good thing" that you speak of, but that's what makes alll this stuff so much fun!! If I do mess up, at least I know where I need to get back to (plus I'll already have the parts)
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