Casey Butt

Recently, I paid $340 on Ebay for what I naively thought was a Vigilante 9.5" 2800 stall torque converter. I know, $340 for a Vigilante, I should have known something wasn't right. In fact, I suspected it was a scam, so I emailed the seller (ellie082687) and he/she assured me it was a lightly used Vigilante bought in 2009. The auction is here...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261540941271?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Yesterday I received the package and opened the box to find a very used, beat-up GM 12" torque converter painted purple - piece of scrapyard junk worth maybe $15.

...Yes, I know I was a fool and should have known it was too good to be true, but I took a chance based on the emails and description. Yes, I also know that of the three photos in the auction only the first one appears to be a real Vigilante, I didn't notice that until after I had paid for the item. I asked the seller about it as soon as I noticed but he/she then stopped corresponding with me citing that he/she was distraught about a recent death in the family and will be out of town for awhile (he/she didn't mention that before I paid for the item).

The seller (ellie082687) won't refund my money and "don't accept returns".

Consider this a warning if you see ellie082687 selling anything.

87350gtanj

Wow that's horrible i'd get in contact with Ebay immediately because they have the buyer protection thing that if you don't get what you ordered there suppose to give your money back.

Casey Butt

I did that immediately upon receiving the torque converter. Had it not been an obvious scam job I would have contacted the seller first, but there's no way anyone could accidentally paint a 30-year old stock GM torque converter purple and mistake it for a Vigilante. It was deliberate. The thing I received has the old style mounting pads, is rusted around the hub and wasn't even painted well - you can see the rust and original blue paint under the purple in a few places. It's obviously a high-mileage, very old GM unit pulled from scrap somewhere and painted up to scam someone (me).

ellie082687 won't accept a return, won't refund my money, and is now saying I have buyers remorse and probably found another Vigilante somewhere else for cheaper (like I'm going to get a Vigilante somewhere for less than $340 ). Her/his 'proof' is the argument that he/she couldn't have painted a GM converter purple because that color is patented by Precision Industries and you can't even buy that color paint.

I checked her/his feedback and she/he seems to be selling used car parts on Ebay regularly.

Casey Butt

This is one of her/his responses to my request to return the item and get my money back...

Seller's message:

"im not lying or twisting my way out of nothing this is a 9.5" convertor not a 12" like you say as you can see that clearly in the pics. I don't accept returns, you will be wasting your money sending it back to me, you left abusive feedback before even working out the case I think its clear whos trying to scam who here. why ask me after you bought item about pictures and details after the fact you bought it if the info and pictures were in ad before you purchased it. if you had felt it wasn't original then all you had to do is move on not purchase convertor. "

"why did you not ask the needed questions and ask for needed pictures before you purchased item, thus leading me to buyers remorse as you found it somewere else for less then comeback questioning the details of the auctions which were all present and listed before you hit BUY IT NOW. I did not force you to make purchase without asking for more info simply put and now you want me to refund you for a mistake you mad not knowing the type of convetor you purchased is just absurd. then implying and that I falsified it by painting it PURPLE a color that's pateneted by Vigiliante that cant even be duplicated anywere cause its pateneted that's just crazy."

"I don't accept returns cause I was burned already due to a member sending me back a box full of rocks instead of the actual item shipped thus I don't accept returns. im not hiding any info as all those emails between us are recorded and cant be deleted to show you asked me questions about convertor after you bought it. So why didn't you ask me those same questions like the other ones you asked before hitting buy it now???? I basically told you there would be a delay due to a death in the family and with tht being said I even shipped out convertor sooner then was expected on ebay. youre trying to rip me off for the convertor and the total cost of it, all details were listed in auction ad, why ask me if convertor was what it is after the fact? that's what I don't understand. Its the same convertor shown in all 3 pictures. I even lowered price to help you out some as you seemed interested and were quick to jump and buy."


Looks like this piece of **** doesn't intend to refund my money and it will be in the hands of Ebay's 'Buyer Protection'. This dirtbag should also be banned from Ebay, because this was clearly a deliberate and successful attempt to scam someone out of their money (me).

Restrorob

iTrader: (7)

File a dispute with Paypal as well right NOW, That will put a hold on their account until this rip-off madness is solved......

Casey Butt

I tried. PayPal is tied in with Ebay now and you can't open a dispute in PayPal if there's one already open in Ebay for the same case... otherwise I wold have had the hold put on right away.

I really hope I'm not screwed here.

Casey Butt

...And notice that in the pics in the auction the cover photo does appear to be of a Vigilante, but the other two photos are not. And the person is measuring the spacing between the mounting pads at roughly 9.5" and using this as proof that the converter is a 9.5" Vigilante. Of course, all 700r4 torque converters have ~9.5" spaced mounting pads.

Incidentally, I don't think those photos were included with the original auction, they were added afterwards... just shortly before I bit and bought it. When I did notice them I emailed the seller and got the "sorry, can't talk now, I'm distraught because someone in my family just died" brush off.

Casey Butt

Sellers response when I pointed this out...

"pictures clearly show it as 9.5" if you wanted a 9.5" diameter then you bought the wrong convertor I never stated it being 9.5" diameter I listed measurement as 9.5" as shown in pictures if you felt this was the wrong measurement I would've supplied you with new picstures with the measurements you would've asked for."

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

Not that I doubt your word, but the last revision to the listing (adding pics) was 9 minutes before the purchase. Maybe you had the listing opened up before the revision was made and completed the sale after.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...p2047675.l2569

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

Get some screen shots while the images are still up in case you need them.

Casey Butt

I believe that was probably the case because when I bought the item there was only one photo... the cover photo. Then after I hit Buy it Now and paid I saw the other two photos when the page refreshed.

In any case, what I was sent was not what the auction was for. I bought what was listed as a Vigilante and received a fake painted purple. And incidentally, the torque converter they sent me wasn't in any of the photos.... it is the very old GM style with the small mounting pads.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

I edited my reply so you may not have seen it but get some screen shots in case you need them.

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

Just be sure to point that fact out in your dispute. Get good pics comparing what you had to go by and what you received. It still may work against you though.

Casey Butt

I saved the webpage and got the screenshots. I can't see how those two photos would make any difference though - what I got was not a Vigilante as was listed and clearly described. It was a scam by any estimation.

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

True, and it's clearly not the same converter in the first and subsequent two pics. The mounting bosses are round and on the very edge of the converter in the first and square with a round boss on it and inside the edge on the next two. You should be able to presnt a good case it is not as represented.

Casey Butt

...and what I received is neither of those converters either. What she/he sent was the older style GM converter with the small round mounting bosses. Like this (but sloppily painted purple and more beat up)...

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

will take 2 weeks. but it works! have all you ducks in a row. this is a bait and switch.pain and simple..ask any maker how they size a Tq convtr.
send email reply to ebay.from maker
ebay will know the photos will have been added just a few min before it ended..

by the way a true 9" convtr will fit in a flat rate priority mail box (larg)
and ship for under $17 sold off 2 back up convrts (9" body diameter) a few weeks ago $200 ea

and so ya know..
pay pal is owned by ebay

Casey Butt

I think this ***** probably bought a Vigilante recently, took one photo of it (the cover photo in the auction) and sold his old stock converter to me as a Vigilante hoping I wouldn't know the difference if he painted it purple. He mentioned in email trying to recoup his money after a transmission swap.

Casey Butt

Here are the messages we exchanged in Ebay...


Dear ellie082687,

Do you know what type of vehicle this came out of and how it was used?

- casey_butt


Dear casey_butt,

1995 chevy camaro z28

- ellie082687


Dear ellie082687,

Do you know if it's working up to spec or was raced hard?

- casey_butt


Dear casey_butt,

YES IT WAS WORKING WITHOUT ANY ISSUES and up to spec it wasn't raced hard I only used car on weekends not even 1000 miles I swapped to a manual transmission

thanks you and let me know

- ellie082687


Dear casey_butt,

are you interested in the convertor?

- ellie082687


Dear ellie082687,

Yes, I'm interested... just trying to figure out if it's what I need.

I have a 1988 700r4 ...30 spline, lockup.

- casey_butt


Dear casey_butt,

yes this will work on all 97 and older 700r4's and 4l60es that what i was running in my camaro a 700r4 this is a lockup convertod

- ellie082687


Dear casey_butt,

there are only 2 types of convertors for 700r4s the new ones for ls motors this will not work and the older ones which is the model you have and which this came out of. let me know i had another member message me about it as well since posting last night for lower price.

- ellie082687


Dear ellie082687,

What was your original asking price?

- casey_butt


Dear casey_butt,

425
for the free dhipping im offering it now at a real good price. let me know just trying to recover from my t56 manual transmission swap. im not a racer i just wanted economy to shift six speeds.

- ellie082687


Dear ellie082687,

Do you know how many clutches it has? I believe they have 3, but I'm not sure if they did in 2009.

- casey_butt


I BOUGHT THE CONVERTER AT THIS POINT.


Dear casey_butt,

hello im unsure but will try and find out for you if i can. thank s again

- ellie082687


I NOTICED THE TWO NEW PICTURES ADDED TO THE AUCTION AT THIS POINT.


Dear ellie082687,

I don't know if you're aware of it, but the last two photos you posted with the auction weren't of a 9.5" Vigilante converter. Vigilante's have a billet cover and that converter has a stock cover, and is over 12". The first photo looks to be the Vigilante though, so you probably just mixed the photos up.
.
- casey_butt


Dear casey_butt,

good morning i will be out of town till this upcoming wednsday or thursday as i had a family member pass unexpectedly on this thursday and i am.the one handling the formalities. i will get back to you then as im a little distraught over this at the time.

thank you

- ellie082687


I don't see how she/he can get away with this. I'll update this thread to let everyone know what happens with Ebay's "Buy Protection" process, though.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for the heads up. I blocked him.

Don't worry, you will get your money back. I've had to deal with this a few times. Ebay always sides with the buyer.

Casey Butt

...but now I have to pay full price for a new Vigilante. So much for the deal I thought I was getting.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Yes that does suck a$$!

beths91camaro

iTrader: (35)

Having experienced my money locked up when a case was opened against me a month after the item was purchased- even though the buyer got the item, and left me glowing feedback, you will find PP will have held the funds already when the case is open, even if you don't have it back.
Good luck!

rusty vango

exactly why I refuse to buy ANYTHING from "fee bay" there are far too many scams going on. and ,to me, e bay is getting like craigslist. I don't like to buy anything I cant see for myself. sorry for you being had. but , sadly this is not the first time I have heard of someone being scammed on e bay. apparently they suck

DeltaElite121

You could be paying full price AND lose your *** on this deal.. I'd consider you lucky because you'll be getting your money back on this one. I'm all for getting used parts, however I've always felt the torque converter is one of those few exceptions.. Honestly, a converter is not something ANYONE should be buying used if this is a daily driver.. and even then, I still don't think it's a great idea unless the person you're buying from has proof/documentation on the service life of the converter. The last thing you want is to install a faulty torque converter, or something that has been beat on it's whole service life and you're getting stuck with footing the bill.

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

Casey Butt

I know. I don't disagree with you. But I went on the assumption that Vigilantes are well-made and even a used one is likely to be a fairly safe gamble. I know people who have bought used Vigilantes and were fine and I've even seen Dana (ProBuilt) recommend used Vigilantes over other new options. I let the $340 price tag and his assurances dupe me into taking the chance... my mistake.

But what a predator he is. Had I known nothing about torque converters I could have put that mystery piece of junk in my car and took out my transmission with it. You'd need to be quite a fool to do that, though... even the purple paint job on it was done poorly, with bubbles and streaks in the paint and cracks where you can see the rust and original blue paint through it. It's just an old scrap GM converter that he sloppily painted purple. He obviously has no conscience whatsoever. A predator.

Casey Butt

He's trying to offer me partial refunds now (first $50, then $75). That would leave him with $265 to $290 in hand for a piece of scrap that he scammed off as a Vigilante. He's obviously doing that because he knows Ebay and PayPal will realize he's a scammer and probably block his accounts when they realize this was a deliberate attempt to defraud buyers on Ebay. In the meantime, he's trying to come out of it with as much money as he can and appear to the Ebay arbitrators that he's willing to work it out. But none of that fixes the fact that I'm left holding the bag and out $265+ for a worthless piece of junk that was sold to me as a Vigilante. If he really wanted to work it out he'd let me return the item to him for a full refund, but he's repeatedly told me not to send it back to him.

I think this is probably standard tactics for scammers when they get confronted.

Casey Butt

I threw my stock converter out. Little did I know they're worth $340 if you paint them purple. Mine was in better shape too.

DeltaElite121

30 cents or $3000 ... makes no difference. No compromise with disgraceful thieves. I seriously hope they remove him from ever using PayPal or Ebay, but that probably won't happen.

Casey Butt

I know of a few people who had their PayPal accounts frozen and Ebay accounts deleted because of things like this. One was a guy selling guitar parts in Detroit and the other was selling computer parts. The guitar parts guy was just misleading about the qualify of the parts he was selling (not outright lying, to my knowledge) and he got kicked off of Ebay and the money in his PayPal account locked. I'm not sure about the computer parts guy, other than his account was deleted and Ebay said they took "disciplinary action" against him. And, no, I didn't open a case against either of them... I went back afterwards to check their feedback and info pages, they were gone, and that's what I was told by the Ebay people when I asked because I suspected as much.

I think they'll do the same thing to this guy. I don't think they have any tolerance for outright predators running scams like this. Sellers and buyers having disputes over 'details' is one thing, but deliberately using Ebay to defraud victims is quite another. Enough abusers like this could tarnish Ebay's reputation beyond repair.

I find it sort of amusing how much confidence this guy had in his purple paint. He kept going back to that again and again in the Ebay Resolution Center, saying the torque converter has to be a Vigilante because that color purple is patented by them and cannot be bought or faked. Then how do you explain the fact that he sent me a 25+ year-old GM 12" converter with a stamped front cover that was, indeed, painted purple over the original light blue? It's 2.5" bigger in diameter and 15 lbs heavier than a Vigilante as well... the patented paint must have caused it to swell.

Other than this, I've had pretty good luck with Ebay over the years... been using it since 2000 and never gotten any negative feedback in those 14 years. I've only gotten burned once or twice, but never to this extent. They were only small stuff (a DVD and an old laptop) so I let them go. Not this time.

Casey Butt

He seems to have given up on the paint as his 'proof' that the scrap GM 12" torque converter he sent me is a 'real' Vigilante. Now he's going with the bolt spacing...

"item was as listed and described you were expecting a 9.5" diameter convertor no where in my auction do I list diameter as the measurement taken in those photos, as you can clearly seeim not measuring diameter of the item. item was shipped as described you just dreamt of reciveing something else."

Pathetic.

rusty vango

THESE are the kinds of people that are giving e bay. a bad rep. you would think that e bay would do EVERYTHING possible to not be compared to craigslist.

IROC315

iTrader: (9)

Just read this. I hope you get your money back and the dirtbag gets banned.

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

No return policy is a big red flag, but not a deal breaker. I always scrutinize a sellers feedback before any purchase. Go right to the negative feedback and get a good idea of what type of items they are selling and their practices in doing so. Take it with a grain of salt because some people are never happy and there are as many scamming buyers as sellers. If they have less than 1,000 sales or it is a short term account, put them through the wringer and ask tons of questions. If something goes awry you will have all you need to make a case. I would think you have this one locked up.

IrocRoadRacer

I think this person is an Ebay RESELLER! These are the type of people that buy things from people "cheap" then resell it for a higher price on Ebay. They probably bought the converter from a classified ad not knowing it was a fake then resold it to you going off what the fraudulent seller did. Look at their selling history, they don't look like con artists.

Casey Butt

I don't think so. His behavior clearly shows he's a con artist and that this was deliberate. I think he's probably sold a bunch of shady merchandise and the purchasers simply never knew better. He got braver and braver with each successful con job.

Not only that, the converter he sent me isn't either of the ones shown in his auction photos... meaning he has another converter painted purple and is/was probably planning to try and sell that as a Vigilante too. If not, why does he have another converter painted "Vigilante purple"?

And he seems too experienced at this. A previous buyer had to open a case against him not too long ago because he never shipped the merchandise and wouldn't respond to emails (no doubt another family member died then as well ). Then, when I offered to return the item he refused and said someone shipped him a box of rocks before as a return, so now he doesn't accept returns. I think that's bullshit. Why would somebody pay shipping to 'return' a box of rocks when the moment he opened it he'd see what it was and not refund their money? He never shipped anything to that other person he conned and then lost the case because he couldn't provide a shipping reference number. So now he caught on and shipped me a scrap converter painted purple so when I opened the case against him he'd at least have a shipping number to show he sent me something. He's hoping that, the "patented" purple paint, and as much distraction as he can create over the bolt hole spacing photos will allow him to defraud me out of $340.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

when you set up your paypal acct:

have a 2nd bank acct.. that you link to your paypal acct too... never ever link it to your primry bank acct..always send the funds from paypal to your bank acct asap keeping your paypal at a 0 bal..

this way there is never a charg back.. scammer buyer doing somthing stupid.
tryn to rip ya off!

you set it up with your bank.. so paypal can only take money out of the 2nd bank acct if you have it in there.. for them to remove..

as soon as the money shows up from paypal (3work days) when you send from paypal.. you take it out and put it in your 1st bank acct.
this is all done on your phone or PC..

by doing it this way.. you can still shop. and buy stuff.. even with a 0 bal in your paypal acct.. as they bill your bank acct. i have been doing it this way from day 1. if i spend $300 on a part or anything.. i just move the money from my 1st acct to my 2nd acct.. then in a few hrs (weekdays) paypal will debit the money from the acct. but the seller is paid the sec i send funds or pay..buying stuff on the weekend. takes paypal till mon to take the funds..
but you still shop and buy.. as norm..

this will cover you.. your bank works for you! not paypal.. they can take nothing from you! if you do it this way..

also get the paypal mastercard with your paypal acct.. you can spend your money the sec you get it.. works like a debit card..gas food..anything.
it's a master card.. and ya get cash back.. just sold off a sphon K meber and a arms $725.. then did the buy with UMI with the paypal debit card.. made $6.80 cashback..

any time you send anything back to a seller..you have to get tracking.. if the seller did not update his shipping address= you sent it to his old address. not his new one..thats his loss it's up to him to cover is A$$..ask me how i know..lol
iv had to open 2 cases with ebay in the last 2 years... iv always won.. with 100% refunds..
just cover your self guys..it's your money. dont get ripped off!!

and hope this also helps
below is what a 9" converter looks like see how the lugs stick out from the body.. this is B&Ms 9" for the 700R4 30 spline.also fits 4L60(tranny)
they are small.. and fit inside a flate rate priority mail box.. under $17 to ship..
but i did sell one to a guy on this site and pay $55 so it was coverd..thats was with a selling price of $210... from almost $500..

This is B&M's newer 70421 converter 3000 stall. the body is just at 9 1/4 wide. under 10".. but is sold as a 10" converter. and with a big small block making gobs of TQ will stall in the 3500 to 3800+ rpm ball park.
the older 70421 was a 10.5 in body..and was a fantastic part. DONT know why they went smaller on the body.
the one i sold on this site.was test run as it was a back up part and worked fantastic with my old 383...

this is what comes with this B&M converter
to take it from lock up to none lockup simple..(yes the pan gasket fell apart) from sitting for the last few years..lol

rusty vango

that behavior is in itself a "con"

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

so buying a good part like say a msd billet dist. for $50.
sending it to MSD for a refurb.. making sure it's a 110% for $65
then reselling it for $150 shipped is a con??
it's how i do things.. and it's not a con.. it's called profit!and it rocks!!


ya need to know what your buying..before ya pay for it!
even the pic with the convrtr the op posted is not a 9.5 or even a 10"... as the lugs are even with the body..

rusty vango

that's not exactly what I meant. but its buyer beware on e bay . example... you may THINK youre getting a NEW wiget but in fact you receive a dogged to death rebuilt wiget. ... THATS what I meant.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

if it's sold as new.. and in fact. i'ts used...yes thats a prob.and scabs like that should be band.. (have had it done to me) i did get 100% of my money back..

but even when you buy a used part...you must know what your getting..
that would put a stop to about 50% of the rip off type sales that go on..
when the seller posted the 2nd set of pics showing him with a tape.. with it at the mounting bosses = proof hes lying in his add!!(seller is)

Casey Butt

The additional photos showing him measuring the bolt spacing were added in the last few minutes before I bought the item. I didn't see them until the page refreshed after I paid. Had I saw them earlier I would have realized something was wrong. Then, when I emailed him asking about it, he pulled the "death in the family and won't be available to talk for a week" bullshit. I figured I just gotten scammed at that point, but still held out hope.

Then, as articwhiteZ outlined, he waited four days before shipping the bogus item - so he'd have a shipping confirmation number and time enough to transfer my payment out of his PayPal account so a hold couldn't be put on it when I realized I was scammed and opened the case against him.

Selling refurbished brand name parts is fine, as long as that's what they're listed and described as in the auction. That's not what happened to me. I paid for what was clearly sold as a Vigilante torque converter, but I received a 25+ year-old GM scrap converter painted purple instead.

This was a blatant, premediatated, deliberate scam, by an obviously experienced con man.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Just let the claim run its course. Ebay should side in your favor if it was not as described. There is a grace period before the case gets escalated where the seller gets a chance to resolve the issue. Don't take any deals and let Ebay make the decision. One caveat is that Ebay will tell you to return the item on your own dime so be prepared to spend a few bucks to ship it back.

Casey Butt

I read the details of the Buyer Protection thing, and I have to ship the item back if it's a counterfeit. But does this thing even qualify as a counterfeit? Other than he painted it purple (badly) it has nothing in common with a Vigilante. If I paint my car red, does that make it a counterfeit Ferrari?

Of course, I'll ship it back if Ebay requires it, but it's just scrap, not a "counterfeit".

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

It was not as described. He misrepresented it as a particular brand and it is not. I think that qualifies as a counterfeit. It does not have to be a perfect rendition of the real thing. The definition of counterfeit is a fraudulent imitation of something else. It was fraudulently passed as a Vigilante, albeit a poor imitation, but it does meet the definition.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I agree, be prepared and gleefully willing to ship it back to strengthen your claim

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

call Vigilante. ask if they have a part # or markings on there stuff..
but i would just say

it's not a 9.5 converter but a full size one.. this with his add. should get you your money back from Paypal..

they will contact the seller he has 2 weeks to get back to you or ebay.they then look at everything..

you wanted a small converter not a full size 13" boat anchor. plain and simple.. ask them at ebay when ya should send it back (if ya should send it back)
most of the time the guys selling that crap will tell ya to keep it...as it will also be there dime in the end.

padak

iTrader: (10)

I am a avid seller on eBay, you CAN'T edit descriptions/price/photos/ETC once the item is bid on.

Also, You should win the case easily. Doesn't matter that he doesn't accept returns, etc. Doesn't matter you didn't ask BEFORE paying, if what he sent you IS NOT what is described in the auction it's a breach of contract/fraud.

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

I said page opened, not item bid on. Looking at the page for a few minutes before choosing to pull the trigger. Page would not refresh until the sale was completed. Just bad timing.