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Originally posted by anesthes Shaved the bungs down a little more. Injectors now sit about 1/8" into the runner.
Made some new fuel rail brackets. Bolted to the intake with 1/4-28 bolts + lock washers. will prolly weld it once its in it's final location.
Now I just gotta work in the regulator, and make up some fuel lines.
machine shop envy
Nope, it'll never work.
machine shop envy
I'll give ya 50 for it as it sets.
machine shop envy
Doc says plus shipping.
machine shop envy
I can tell ya how many things I've mocked up with wood and styrofoam. LOL
I can't wait to see how it works for you.
There's just something so neat in running what you've created.
Originally posted by Grumpy machine shop envy
Nope, it'll never work.
machine shop envy
I'll give ya 50 for it as it sets.
machine shop envy
Doc says plus shipping.
machine shop envy
I can tell ya how many things I've mocked up with wood and styrofoam. LOL
I can't wait to see how it works for you.
There's just something so neat in running what you've created.
The adapter is done. Fits nice. Put studs on both it for the throttle body, and on the intake for the adapter.
I'm not happy with the fuel rails. They don't have the clips like astock rail, so if you mount them too low the injector looses its seal. I dunno what to do about that. It made me pause working on it last night.
Then again, maybe some large E-clips just to bottom the injector out into the rail so the seal still seats?
I finished up the lines and the regulator last night. Ended up using a regulator from a Supra. It can be made adjustable easily.
So its almost done. I'll prolly bolt it in the car this weekend. I just wanna be "happy" with the fuel rail/injectors.
With my homemade fuel rails what I ended up doing was to put the clips on the injectors and then cut the rails and mounting holes so that it essentially sandwiched the injectors in between the manifold bungs (bottom bevel on injector) and the rail (clip hits the rail!). This worked like a charm. Just have the rail hit the clip on the injector, and adjust your mounting holes accordingly.
Originally posted by Craig Moates With my homemade fuel rails what I ended up doing was to put the clips on the injectors and then cut the rails and mounting holes so that it essentially sandwiched the injectors in between the manifold bungs (bottom bevel on injector) and the rail (clip hits the rail!). This worked like a charm. Just have the rail hit the clip on the injector, and adjust your mounting holes accordingly.
Thats what I was thinking about doing with e-clips. Guess you allready rulled out the regular injector clips work fine.
Whats pissing me off is the angle of the injector bungs (also known as 1/2" ID aluminum pipe.. They aim inward, so the fuel rail brackets have to be bent. I'm seriously thinking of drilling them all out, and putting *real* injector bungs in.. I know the "prefered" angle is twords the valve, but even straight up would make me happy at this point.
Plus, I think the thin aluminum tubing will leak at the o-rings. From machining them down, the heat distorted a few of them..
Sooo.. I might be drilling them out and getting some real injector bungs.. What did you use, Craig?
Well, what I used originally was that 1/2" tubing like what you are talking about. There was some balls of aluminum here & there on the bores that I had to clean up from the sloppy welding job, plus the thin wall stuff tended to burn through a bit easily. That being said, I was never real happy with the workmanship. Can't really complain to the craftsman though ;^).
If I had it to do over again (sounds like you're almost there), I'd do the following:
1) Get some 1" round stock of aluminum. Mock up exactly where you want the injectors to sit.
2) Put the manifold on a mill, and mill out 1" bores exactly where you want them (straight up and down or at desired angle, cleaning out the stuff you have in there right now for bungs.
3) Slice the 1" stock into 1" plugs, and drop them down into the bores you just made until they stick in just enough to have the edge right out by the intake port flush. Then seal weld them from the outside.
4) Come back with the mill and cut the holes in the roundstock plugs, 1/2" I think is about right, a little tighter if I remember. Cut them down lower if needed to get the injector tip positioned at the desired depth in the ports.
5) Hit the top of each bore with a reamer to give them a bevel, and come back with some 320 and 600 to clean up the bores.
6) Come back with a die grinder and carefully transition the roundstock where it's hanging in the ports, giving yourself a smooth interface where the injector hangs in.
Another thing I've seen is some screw-in bungs, that looks like a pretty slick deal too! It's tough to get them to hang into the port like you think they ought to though, guess that's the finesse part of it...
I ended up having some crooked bungs, they weren't all straight up and down. One was this way, another that way. And one of the fuel rail bores had a bur on it that cut an oring and leaked some. Plus the welding on the rails sucked and they leaked fuel. Good bit of JBWeld patched that up though. Basically it was a mix, partially looked cool as all heck, partially looked like a real rig. Worked though, ran low 12's.
Also, regarding the regular injector clips, yes, that's what I'm using and they work fine. I had to flatten them with a hammer whack on the concrete and then tighten em up a little with some pliers, but they work just fine. You figure they don't really hold much force, since you usually have fuel pressure pushing the injectors down onto the manifold. Just keeps em from riding up in the bores.
One thing of note is that on the last set of homemade rails I made, I milled down into the rail the right depth for allowing a little shelf for the injector top to hit, and then bored through that to the middle of the rail with like a 1/4" hole. This kept the injectors seated. On the new ones, I went right through (like you probably did), and ended up using the clips instead. Certainly easier the new way!
Whats pissing me off is the angle of the injector bungs (also known as 1/2" ID aluminum pipe.. They aim inward, so the fuel rail brackets have to be bent. I'm seriously thinking of drilling them all out, and putting *real* injector bungs in.. I know the "prefered" angle is twords the valve, but even straight up would make me happy at this point.
This is exactly what I used, and I'm not really happy with it either. My O-rings wouldn't seal up in the tubing, so I used RTV around the base of the injector to make sure it's sealed. Since it's sealing vacuum for the most part, and isn't submerged in fuel it works great.
If I do it over again, I'd buy the premade bungs or make my own like Craig is saying. I don't have access to a lathe or mill though, so I'd probably buy them
On my setup I am using the TPI rails and regulator. For the bungs, I cut them off of an old TPI base. I might use these to just weld to the new manifold. I dont have the parts in front of me, but I recall them not being 1/2" exactly. I thought a 1/2 bore would work, but its not the stock dimension. I also bought about 8 feet of 7/8 round aluminum stock to turn bungs from. (I have a lathe). I'm not to that stage yet, so Im still undecided on which bung type I will use. I want it to look nice, but I need it to be simple and quick too. My wife complains I have too many projects already.....
*finish painting the Vette (needs color sanding/buffed)
*replace the burned 2nd gear band in the Nova
*repaint the other Nova
*re-roof the house
*resurface the swimming pool
* and on, and on, and on......
Maybe she's right
Well. So .551 rather than .500. Intersting! Guess I'll hone it out just a little bit and try it.
I tried Craig's method but didnt like the injector clips. So I used 3/8" e-clips which worked like a charm!
I then re-made part of the brackets. I'm not totally happy, but its enough to get the thing fired up and use as a template to make REALLY nice brackets.
Anyway. I put the felpro 1205 gasket up to it. Top to bottom, side to side it lines up perfect. Only difference is the intake has really rounded cornors, and the felpro is square. Curious if I should square them off to match the gasket, or leave 'em?
Originally posted by anesthes Well I cleaned it up today and polished the inside of the injector bungs. Test fitted everything should be good.
This week I'll bolt it onto the car. Maybe by friday if I'm not to busy fire it up with the scanner and see how it runs.
Doc was screaming he'd just seen you'd post and was hoping for some final pics.
Guess he'll just have to wait..........
The fuel rail brackets look a little ugly cuz its a rough fit. (using washers to get the height right). I want to remake them again, now that I have exact measurements but I ran out of aluminum stock last night. I might still bolt it up and run it, since it is tight, strong and most of all safe. Just ugly rough cuts. Now that I have the final measurements, I'll cut and drill 'em out on the drill press rather than the bench.
I'm happy with the way the adapter came out. I cut out a 1/2"
passage for the IAC which seems to be the same size as the hole the pintle seats in.
I'll post pics sometime between tonight and tomorrow of the final setup. Only thing I forgot was, the 3/8" npt (feed) + 5/16" npt (return) fittings won't fit my car's fuel hoses, so I'll need some sort of GM to 3/8 adapter.
...AND I need to drill out the center holes. Forgot to do that last night, but that will take all of 5 minutes.
Anyway. THe fuel rails are off cuz I was just test fitting. Once I make the holes a little wider in the center, I just gotta tap the MAT and 2 other vac fittings and it should be ready to fire up..
Originally posted by Z69
Also, the old single planes don't flow near as well as the newer designs. Look at the port to head alignment. Not to mention the runner shape and size. [/b]
Just wanted to comment on this now that I have it test fitted.
The port alignment looks fine actually. The manifold and my heads line up pretty darn well to a Felpro 1205 gasket. All in all, its not a bad manifold.
Later on, I realized that was a street dominator. The front fill hole threw me.
I was actually refering to the runner angle as it meets the head.
The manifold generation prior to yours had a near 45 angle at the head junction. Now they have a nice curve to them.
Grumpy's probably seen what I'm talking about.
__________________ 89 GTA 355 A4 4 sale
69 rS 383 A3 4 sale
68 SS 468 M4 4 sale
Base is in, injectors + rails in, wiring all hooked up.
I took some hard lines outta a 2.8 MPFI motor, cut 'em down and flared them to make adapters (to use the existing rubber hose). So for feed I have the rubber hose into it, flared with 3/8 NPT brake line into the fuel rail. Wrapped with heat wrap taken from
a 4th gen fuel line
Return line is 5/16 NPT brake line. Using a regulator from a Toyota supra. Fuel pressure should be close stock. Once I know the setup runs and doesn't leak, I'll weld a nut on the end for an adjuster screw.
I could have tied the two rails together with a 3/8 brake line, but I needed a -4an for my gauge - so I ordered some adapters, and a foot of -8an braided hose. That will show up tomorrow, so that will complete the fuel system.
Tomorrow i'll make a gasket for the TB, and snug it down. I should be able to fire it up, and idle it.
Remaining things:
1) Need to finish the throttle cable bracket.
2) Need to bend up a 2.5" pipe from the blower to the TB, and find a 2.5 - 3.5" rubber coupler
3) Need a radiator neck with a swivel, cuz I need it to point straight forward instead of off to the side.
Originally posted by anesthes
2) Need to bend up a 2.5" pipe from the blower to the TB, and find a 2.5 - 3.5" rubber coupler
While you can get by with about anything for a while, long term you'll want to get a reinforced piece. Might try Jack, if he doesn't have it, he can probably get it, and not goof around getting it.
Sides, he's just good people.
Cotton's Performance Center - Jack Cotton
105 Walnut Street, Agwam, MA 01001
1 (413) 789 0531 Sales and service
1 (413) 789 2848 Fax
1 (413) 789 0401 Tech line turbo38gn@aol.com www.cottonsperformance.com
Originally posted by Grumpy While you can get by with about anything for a while, long term you'll want to get a reinforced piece. Might try Jack, if he doesn't have it, he can probably get it, and not goof around getting it.
Sides, he's just good people.
Cotton's Performance Center - Jack Cotton
105 Walnut Street, Agwam, MA 01001
1 (413) 789 0531 Sales and service
1 (413) 789 2848 Fax
1 (413) 789 0401 Tech line turbo38gn@aol.com www.cottonsperformance.com
Anyway.. Heres todays pic. Ready to fire. Just need to do an oil change in the am, and I'll fire it up. Tested rails and everything, They hold pressure. The Denso FPR out of the supra is 50psi vac disconnected.
Just gotta finish up the blower piping, and extend 2 wires for the MAT/IAT.
Looking good I'm curious to see how it runs when it's not under boost. I never could find difinitive answers on optimal plenum volume for different displacement/induction. Maybe if yours runs well my next step will be a monoblade and adapter plate similar to what you're running. Maybe I can improve even more doing that
I hear ya.. I dunno.. I think it will run great. Maybe my education on manifold design is wrong but.. This particular manifold is rated 2-65k with a carb. I figure with the added spacer, it should work out nice.
I made a mistake of using an air ratchet on the carb studs. Pulled all the threads out.. whoops.. Heli-coiled them to the same size. Funny thing is, now they're "straighter" than the taps where from the factory. hah.
Prolly shoulda heli-coiled the fuel rail mounting points. if the bolts start to pull out, I will. Seems the heli-coil is about 4 times as strong as just taping cast.. odd, since they themselfs screw in.
Set timing to 10d. Really really smooth idle. No skips, no vac leaks.. Fuel pressure running is actually higher than I thought. around 55lbs.. So in theory its getting more fuel, however o2 seems a little lower. SO I can only asume its using more fuel too.
Throttle response is much smoother. No hesitation. When you back off, throttle drops. No floating.
We let it idle for 40 mins.. Not one hickup.. Even when the fans kick on its smooth. And i'm talking a 700/800rpm idle, not 1100 like some people recommended.
I drove the car in and out of the shop, carefully.. Seems just so smooth.. I'm very happy.
WHen I finish making the intake tube, Myself and the laptop will go for a cruise.
Like I said above. Idle, and part throttle light accel seems fine. Need to scan it, though.
If I mash the throttle from idle, and let off quick it will backfire through the TB. Dunno whats up with that. surely, the ve is all wrong.
I bent up some tubing for the blower, but then I couldn't close my hood.
Guess I'll try something else tomorrow. the TB hat fits with 1/2" of clearance, but thats not enough to get a rubber coupler around it.. Coupler hits the hood.
Oh btw.. When I set min air/IAC, I couldn't get it to run at first.
I had to disconnect my PVC to create enough vac leak for it to idle. It idles kinda stumbly/rough with the set screw ALL the way in. I'm thinking maybe add another hole or two to the throttle body.
Of course, with IAC corrections, it idles pretty damn smooth.
I guess my motor requires more air at idle than a Vortec 5700.
(or maybe the additional 5-8psi of fuel pressure is causing an issue?) I'll scan idle tomorrow if I get a chance.
Before I got my VE dialed in, my car would do the same thing with a throttle punch. I leaned it out some in the lower RPM/hi kPa and it seems to be gone for the time being.
Originally posted by onebinky Before I got my VE dialed in, my car would do the same thing with a throttle punch. I leaned it out some in the lower RPM/hi kPa and it seems to be gone for the time being.
Yeah. I was planning on scanning the car today, but I'm kinda angry over the height of the hose.. Everything fits except for the coupling. Might have to get a new TB hat afterall.
OK. Plumbing is fixed (for now). Need to weld a BOV flange cuz I get crazy compressor surge off boost. But anyway.
It runs GREEAAAAAAT!.. if Rbob, and Grumpy are reading this - they will remember some hesitation, bucking, etc problems I had before that we spent months trying to "tune out".. Its all gone..
If someone smarter than I can point out why these problems do not exist in the single plane, PLEASE lemme know!
Only problem is the regulator. The fitting I used for a return causes high idle fp (55-58lbs), but once hte motor starts using fuel (i.e, heavy throttle under load) it dives down to what the regulator is rated at (around 38-40lbs).. So I need to drill out the fitting to the max size, then add a set screw over the diaphram to make it adjustable.
For anyone interested. It's in datamaster, csv, and excel format. Theres 3-4 restarts in the log from backing it in and out, driving around the lot, forgetting to hook up brake booster, then the actual drive down the street.
I used a bonniville regulator. It has welded hard lines into it, So I flared the 3/8 inlet, and 5/16 outlet.. Idle FP around 40ish psi, vac disconnected is around 45ish.
I'd like to make it adjustable, but the diaphram is cramped inside the shell, and I don't think taping the thin metal on top is a good idea. Then again, it *is* only vac up there.. (suggestions?)
So the car runs. Needed to up the bpw in my $58 bin. Huge lean pop when I mash the throttle. Added some AE and it helped a little. Gonna start over with a fresh $60 bin tonight.. My timing, ve, and ae for the old $58 bin worked for the TPI system, but I'm finding these setups are night and day!
I'll end up getting 42pph injectors by the spring I'm sure now. heh
Originally posted by Craig Moates Here's a pic. I might have a better one...
:yourock: :hail:
(Ken's jaw dropping) AWESOME SETUP!!!
I have a couple of questions here.
1.) How did you weld the bungs onto the manifold? I have seen threaded bungs too. Would those work as well?
2.) Where did you get the fittings for the injectors? I wanted to do the same thing, but I couldn't find the correct hose fittings. Got a part number or a start point for a source?
I'd like to make it adjustable, but the diaphram is cramped inside the shell, and I don't think taping the thin metal on top is a good idea. Then again, it *is* only vac up there.. (suggestions?)
I wouldn't, unless you're 100% sure it won't leak. If the diaphram ever ruptures, you're gonna have gas all over the hot engine bay. I've already had one "minor" engine fire on my manifold setup from being careless, and I can definately say that it's not fun It'll get your heart going pretty good though...
Originally posted by onebinky I wouldn't, unless you're 100% sure it won't leak. If the diaphram ever ruptures, you're gonna have gas all over the hot engine bay. I've already had one "minor" engine fire on my manifold setup from being careless, and I can definately say that it's not fun It'll get your heart going pretty good though...
Yeah.. LIke when you use tranny lines as fuel lines. Make sure those are TIGHT! Yeah. had a few gas leaks this week. All set now.
I had issues with the hard brake line leaking some too when I originally did all mine with single flare. I redid them with 45* double flare and they've been fine so far.
Glad to see you got it all running though. Have you had much more drive time with it yet?
Originally posted by anesthes Yeah.. LIke when you use tranny lines as fuel lines. Make sure those are TIGHT! Yeah. had a few gas leaks this week. All set now.
Fp just is a little on the low site, IMO..
-- Joe
What year Bonneville did ya get the regulator for? The newer ones are rated at 48-55 PSI, where the earlier ones are 40.5-47 PSI, which therefore, *SHOULD* get you a few more PSI. It seems the SC and non SC use the same fuel pressure and the part number is the same (at least whwn looking up a 99 Grand Prix).
Originally posted by JP84Z430HP What year Bonneville did ya get the regulator for? The newer ones are rated at 48-55 PSI, where the earlier ones are 40.5-47 PSI, which therefore, *SHOULD* get you a few more PSI. It seems the SC and non SC use the same fuel pressure and the part number is the same (at least whwn looking up a 99 Grand Prix).
HTH.
JP
Aww heck I dunno.. They had a spare rail in my buddy's engine shop off a bonneville they did, so I grabbed the whole thing. I have the part # for the rail at my shop. Where can I run it to find the year?
The "regulator" comes out of the socket with a snap ring. Think I can just buy a replacement regulator at like autozone with the higher pressure, and it fit into the socket? Cuz the socket is allready flaired and all for my setup.
Originally posted by onebinky I had issues with the hard brake line leaking some too when I originally did all mine with single flare. I redid them with 45* double flare and they've been fine so far.
Glad to see you got it all running though. Have you had much more drive time with it yet?
Yep, I'm using $60 base bin from Bruce. With some minor changes here and there, its running like a top.
Tinkering around, boosting to about 140kpa in the parking lot, inj dc is like 70% right there. Which tells me I need more fuel pressure, or more injector, or both.
I think it runs a million times better than my TPI. Once I get the plumbing a little better, and the bov welded in then I'll get some good scans for you folks. for now:
On a n/a setup, now sure how it would run. I can tell you this, on mine. take off, part throttle, cruise is 100% better. And hard accel is just peachy. Go straight to boost. No lag.
They aim inward, so the fuel rail brackets have to be bent. I'm seriously thinking of drilling them all out, and putting *real* injector bungs in.. I know the "prefered" angle is twords the valve, but even straight up would make me happy at this point.
