Alternative Port EFI IntakesThis board is for tech discussions and questions about aftermarket port EFI such as the HSR, MR, SR, BBK, FIRST, etc.
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I decided to sell off my TPI setup and get a single plane EFI setup.
I picked this up. Its diy convert, a little rough so I'll prolly do some welding to make real fuel rail brackets but, you get the idea.
I'm planning on making an adapter with some 1/2" aluminum to use a 75mm vortec truck throttle body I have. I hope the IAC and TPS is compatible with the '749 setup. (anyone wanna step in your welcome).
I'll use the vortec TB hat plumbed right outta my centrifigul blower.
Any coments?
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Last edited by anesthes; 07-12-2004 at 09:07 PM.
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The bungs are welded at an angle. You can tel in this pic. I would have tried to angle it a little differently, but I guess it would have interfered with the mounting flange. This prolly won't cause the best atomization possible but, I think it will work nice.
I have a theory however, that the center mounted monoblade will have better throttle response than the long runner setup.
I fabbed up something similar, but it was a fair amount of work and was never quite right. Idle quality suffered I think due to injector positioning/angle. Finally went ahead and got a manifold designed for it to start with and worked from there (see pic)...
It's only with the latest tall narrow ported heads that the injectors even get close to being pointed at the intake valve.
FWIW, it vaporization that gets the floor primarily off the runner floor.
Alot of your atomization takes place at overlap. The exhaust blasting back past the intake valve acts to atomize it. Ford's got some films on this, but none public domained that I know of.
There's also an interesting SAE paper about the *waxeyness* (sp) of fuel at low temps..
For what your doing close is close enough. Not being sarcastic.
Originally posted by Craig Moates I fabbed up something similar, but it was a fair amount of work and was never quite right. Idle quality suffered I think due to injector positioning/angle. Finally went ahead and got a manifold designed for it to start with and worked from there (see pic)...
Yeah? What did you end up doing with it?
I paid $90.00 for the manifold. I figure its worth trying. I was gonna go with a victor efi, but I'm afraid that below 3000rpm that manifold woulda been tough.
Anyone have any input on the vortec TB and electronics?
Originally posted by Grumpy It's only with the latest tall narrow ported heads that the injectors even get close to being pointed at the intake valve.
FWIW, it vaporization that gets the floor primarily off the runner floor.
Alot of your atomization takes place at overlap. The exhaust blasting back past the intake valve acts to atomize it. Ford's got some films on this, but none public domained that I know of.
There's also an interesting SAE paper about the *waxeyness* (sp) of fuel at low temps..
For what your doing close is close enough. Not being sarcastic.
Interesting. You give me confidense.
My theory of better throttle response than the long runner (tpi) setup. Is that correct, or you think i'm dreaming?
Originally posted by Craig Moates Still have it. I can try to take some pics and send them along...
That would be nice. I'd like to hear what you used for a regulator and such as well. I was thinking of a lt1 regulator, but i'd kinda like to retain adjustability.
Then again, lt1's seem to run about the same pressure I run on my setup.
I am building a single plane EFI intake right now too. I looked at single planes, and chose the Team G. I have a Victor Jr also, but it was too tall to fit under the hood of my Vette. I have the plenum pretty much done. Mine will use the factory TPI style TB. I kept part of the TPI plenum just for the look, but it was actually harder to do so. The injector bungs are next. I know I can get them at least vertical with no probs, Im looking for some angle towards the valve even if its only slight. My engine is Procharged, so the actual flow wasnt a big concern. Im sure the SP/procharger will way outflow my TPI. I have some pics at Cardomain.com/id/sbnova if anyone is interested.
Originally posted by SBNova I am building a single plane EFI intake right now too. I looked at single planes, and chose the Team G. I have a Victor Jr also, but it was too tall to fit under the hood of my Vette. I have the plenum pretty much done. Mine will use the factory TPI style TB. I kept part of the TPI plenum just for the look, but it was actually harder to do so. The injector bungs are next. I know I can get them at least vertical with no probs, Im looking for some angle towards the valve even if its only slight. My engine is Procharged, so the actual flow wasnt a big concern. Im sure the SP/procharger will way outflow my TPI. I have some pics at Cardomain.com/id/sbnova if anyone is interested.
Good luck and keep me posted.
Thats cool! I'm glad I've gotten you guys to speak out on this. I know a bunch of members have done this type of setup. But searching the boards finds very thin results. Found a few posts on "how cool" the victor efi would be, but noone whom actually used it.
Like I said, one of the first things I wanna do is fix the brackets for the fuel rails. I dont like that plate. I'm thinking maybe weld a bar going accross the intake front and back, bolted to a welded stand off.
hey ford knows something about good fuel mixing ??? nmew to me thee answer to fuel distrobution is more catalytic conveters look at any of there cars lots and lots of catalytic converters. trust me there chambers and pistons are anything but efficient.
As for atomozation on your port EFI setup. i find pointing the injectos striaght into the floor perpendicular like has the fuel basically bouncing back up to the upper portion of the runner and the air stram comming in creates a nice shearing action. aim it at the intake valve if possiable the heat from teh back of the valve and the stem most definately helps to vaporize fuel in a much more efficient manner. but if your in a injector positioning pinch straight into the fllor work pretty good.
im not sure your gonna get better throttle response but you most certianley will have a more responsive engine once the manifold starts working in its range of efficency. biggest concern at this point is the wet vs dry desing of the intake and the implacation therin.
i just hope your gonna eb speed density. mafs will struggle with such a setup.
Like it was stated, injector angle being slightly off will have little effect on drivability.
Also, the short runners and a single plane design with port EFI does not have the same loss on bottom end that it would have with a carb'd setup. Remember that the runners are only flowing air now, they don't have to worry about mixing fuel with it as they pass down the runners.
I'll attach a pic of mine. It's a victor Jr, using stock rails and stock TB currently. It's still a bit rough, but it's very much a work in progress still. The plenum volume is somewhere around 130 cui.
Here's some links that I found pretty helpful when I was designing my setup:
Good luck with it, and remember to have fun even when you want to burn the SOB down. That's what it's all about, is stupid fun... Just remember that
I've gotten it to idle about as good as a car can with 14" vacuum at idle, but I am still fighting with some tuning issues at lower RPM's. Those seem to be ironing out now though, with the MAP conversion.
Some of the upcoming changes are going to be new rails with aluminum fittings welded in, as opposed to the brass fittings threaded into the rails. As well as stainless lines running back to the tank, and a larger TB, afpr, and fuel pump.
EDIT: If you do a search under my name, you should find at least a few threads on problems and issues I've had, and how they were corrected.
Good luck
__________________
1987 IROC-Z 305/5 speed
------------
-305 block .040" (312 cid), Speed Pro hypereutectic pistons, stock rods; shot peened/polished with arp rod bolts
-Hedman shorties and Y pipe
-Hooker 3" Catback minus cat
-Edelbrock Vic Jr converted to MPFI; gasket matched, mild port and polish
-Holley 750cfm throttle body (modified)
-26lb/hr delphi fuel injectors
-Comp Cams Hyd. Roller cam 262hr-12
-Holley Annihilator CD ignition
-Holley LaserShot Pro coil
-Summit 8mm spiral pro wires
-Fluidamper 7" balancer
-Cast aluminum timing cover
-March Billet underdrive pulleys
-7730 ECM conversion and DIY PROM burning using TunerProRT and PPII
-World Products SR Torquer heads, full port and polish, Manley stainless 1.94/1.50 valves, high flow valve job
-GM 3.23 gears
-T5 swap
-Centerforce dual friction clutch
-VDO and autogage instruments in custom acrylic gauge panel
-Minor weight reduction including: A/C removed, smog removed, front sway bar removed, undercoating removed, stereo removed, most carpet padding removed, and wonder bar removed.
-255gph walbro in-tank fuel pump
-edelbrock fuel rails
PARTING OUT, CHECK OUT MY THREADS ON THE CLASSIFIEDS BOARD
And from the research I've done, running with no plenum doesn't seem to be an issue if you are running boost. But, if you are N/A you are gonna have some idle and drivability issues under part throttle.
The TPS should still be 5v reference, so that should be OK.
Not completely sure on the IAC, but I think GM used the same design for most of there vehicles.
Thanks so much for the responses. I feel better about the injector angle now. Just want to make that bracketry more ridgid.
I've been reading a ton of books on intake manifold design, differences between dual and single plane, theories, etc, and thats why I went this route.
The plenum concept on the n/a car is interesting.
I know this is apples and oranges, but I'm trying to understand why my vortec truck is just so. Smooth. Throttle response is great, etc. Could it simply be because the components are only a few years old vs almost 20? Or is the manifold design just superior?
Something strange about the vortec is the external plenum. You got this throttle body "hat" right. It has 2 3" hoses. One to the air cleaner, the other to like a plenum of sorts. I was going to eliminate that on my setup (using the vortec TB), but I'm curious if that helps non-boost driving?
Now if the TPI setup would just sell on ebay, I'd be really happy since i'm close to bankrupt!
My car is MAP btw, running a '749 ECM. I'm curious of Craig's problems were simply with his MAF?
I'll do the searches as suggested. Thanks again. I appreciate it.
It looks like the injectors sit up out of the manifold a bit. See what you can do to get the injector bungs re-worked so that the tip of the injector is closer to the top of the runner. Don't really want the injector shrouded.
that plastic 'plenum' that you have on the vortec motor that hands towards the back of the engine is very similar to the LT1 engine intakes on the impalas and camaros, I think they are more of a baffle for intake noise than anything else. Maybe they help performance, but most aftermarket cold air kits, etc remove all that crap anyway, and supposedly pick up power, so who knows.
as for the smoothness of the vortecs, I'm betting its in the cam timing, matched with the runner lengths of the manifold, the whole GM 'system' that makes them run so smooth. The cast iron manifolds also quiet the motor down some, so it sounds smoother.
I wouldn't worry too much about the injector angle, but you will need to put a bit of a plenum on that manifold (think gn type plenum). Similar to what onebinky has there. And I agree with beefing up the fuel rail mounting, even if its making the plate thicker, or part of the plenum. As for a regulator, if you have the cash, aeromotive makes a killer standalone regulator that you can plumb in.
let us know how it turns out. looks like you are gettin there.
I can vouch for the Aeromotive unit. You can see it off to the right on my setup.
Same for trying to drop the injectors down in there as much as you can. If I had it to do over, I would take some like 1" round-stock and re-cut the holes for the bungs 1" ID. Then drop the round-stock down into the holes, mark them up, and pull em back out and profile them nicely. Put them on the lathe and cut them for the injectors, giving a nice bevel and what-not. Then bring the profiling up by hand to match the injector tip. Then double check all your measurements and tack it in place.
Check this out (pic attached). That's what you want I think in terms of how the injector comes into the port.
In the pic I posted it can be seen how there is a plate between the top of the TB mounting pad and the TB. This serves two purposes: add plenum, and provide a place to anchor the fuel rails.
RBob.
P.S. fired that engine/EFI system up this past weekend. It really runs nice. Smooth idle, great off idle, guy was amazed at how smooth and tractable it is.
I used a 1/2 carb spacer to attach to the carb mount on my intake and serve as the start of my plenum. It's thick enough to mill if it gets warped and its beefy enough to weld my rail mounts to. Best of all- it was $5 brand new at the big Daytona Beach swap meet last March.
I know my plenum is rather long looking, but for the simplicity of the Procharger setup I wanted to keep the TB in the stock location.
I'm gonna use a 1" peice of alum as a spacer. Since i'm using a Vortec TB, i'll need to drill out the correct passages for the TB itself, and the IAC using a vortec gasket as a template.
Heres the TB i'll be using..
Its 75mm, which should work great. I'll just need new IAC and TPS connectors since they are different. The throttle cable is the same. I'll prolly use a TPI throttle braket bolted to the intake.
If you look at this view, you'll see the throttle body hat doesn't use a band clamp, but uses a hold down bolt like a dist so it shouldn't blow off under boost (like my vortec tube was doing).
And as I said before, the mono 75mm is larger than the twin 48 I was using, and larger than a twin 52. Infact, its larger than the vortec discharge pipe by a half inch so I really think it will be a nice combo. Only thing I find odd is the lip machined into the backside of the blade. I dunno what its purpose is, other than to serve as a restriction?
Not a restriction as much as a silencer I think. If you've ever heard a monoblade run with the intake duct off you'll know what I mean....it whistles pretty good when you crack the throttle just a little. The turbulence around the edge of the blade seems a likely cause, and I can see GM using that ridge to effectively "thicken" the blade to reduce that effect.
Originally posted by TheGreatJ Not a restriction as much as a silencer I think. If you've ever heard a monoblade run with the intake duct off you'll know what I mean....it whistles pretty good when you crack the throttle just a little. The turbulence around the edge of the blade seems a likely cause, and I can see GM using that ridge to effectively "thicken" the blade to reduce that effect.
I feel really good about doing this.. The car has been really frustrating me lately.. I had a bunch of "tuning" problems. that i've been chasing around for a long time. I got most of them squared away, then when almost giving up I found out the whole time my valves have been floating. wrong springs.
And it appears one of my inner exhaust springs broke, which made things worse.
BUT.. (after new springs). This combo I think will be fun to build. After grinding down the bungs, making rail brackets, modding the bolt holes to line up to straight (87+) heads, etc. I think it will be neat.
Ok. The IAC and TPS uses the same plugs / wiring as a '90-92 3.1 fbody. So that's easy enough.
Was thinking of using an lt1 regulator for now. With car running, vac disconnected, whats the fuel pressure of a stock lt1 regulator? I did a search and got enough different answers to play tonights lottery.
Cool I was wondering what its purpose is. I guess for those who use a real race valve cover w/out fillers.
I was measuring the stock TPI baseplate today I had in my shop. The bungs are fairly high on that too. I'll compare it when the manifold shows up friday and mill the bungs down to match the stock tpi height.
I compared my vortec TB to a holley gasket. It wil just barely fit there, but require some minor grinding to the manifold maybe.
The only problem I forsaw was this..
If you look at the picture, I drew where the TB hole would be, and where the IAC rectangle would be. Think having it not "centered" int eh manifold will matter, or am I getting too picky too soon about things?
IAC really doesn't matter since it's really just a metered vacuum leak.
Optimally though, you'd want the TB centered over the top of the opening. If it's off a bit it can effect cylinder fill some, that's one of the things I am currently fighting with. My first plenum was massive, almost 400cui. and it set back a couple inches behind the opening in the back. My cyl's 1 and 2 were getting starved to the point where I could actually grab the header pipes with my hands and hold them for about 5 sec before burning myself. It is much better with this current design, but I think it still isn't optimal.
So if you can, get the TB as close to centered as possible, it'll save you some headaches in the long run.
If you don't have room anywhere else to mount the IAC, I was reading on one of the lists that remote IAC's were available in some mid 80's GM cars, as well as some mid 80's bmw's that used the lambda plates.
Originally posted by onebinky IAC really doesn't matter since it's really just a metered vacuum leak.
Optimally though, you'd want the TB centered over the top of the opening. If it's off a bit it can effect cylinder fill some, that's one of the things I am currently fighting with. My first plenum was massive, almost 400cui. and it set back a couple inches behind the opening in the back. My cyl's 1 and 2 were getting starved to the point where I could actually grab the header pipes with my hands and hold them for about 5 sec before burning myself. It is much better with this current design, but I think it still isn't optimal.
So if you can, get the TB as close to centered as possible, it'll save you some headaches in the long run.
If you don't have room anywhere else to mount the IAC, I was reading on one of the lists that remote IAC's were available in some mid 80's GM cars, as well as some mid 80's bmw's that used the lambda plates.
Here's a pic of my first plenum. It's a dinosaur
HI,
I can prolly center the TB hole itself, but will have to machine the adapter plate i make for the iac ports. Maybe what i'll do is, machine it so they dump into the TB hole?
for example, see attached picture.
The light blue represents the bore in the throttle body. The green represents the iac passage.
The thing under it is my adapter. THe red would be the area machined out of it. So a bore for the TB hole, then a passage into that bore for the iac.
Since it would be mostly centered, it wouldn't interfere with the black bolt holes you see in the pic.
So by making an adapter like this, I can center the TB bore on the manifold. Just have to machine out an IAC passage. IAC sharing with the TB bore hole (in adapter) isn't an issue right?
That looks like a much better solution. It may add a tiny bit of turbulence to the air flow coming thru the TB, but I'd imagine it would be negligable.
There are 2 people that I know of running the victor efi intake.
SDI and Camcoijb. IIRC, it's about $350 for mnifold and rails from Summit. Unless you're doing your own machine work and welding, it's cheaper/the same price to just buy an intake.
I was quoted 250 for cutting and welding.
Those big chambers on stock air inlets are resonance chambers for noise cancellation.
The early SBC's had solid valve covers and a draft tube back by the dist. Basically just a tube ported to the valley. The front tube was just for oil fill.
Also, the old single planes don't flow near as well as the newer designs. Look at the port to head alignment. Not to mention the runner shape and size.
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Originally posted by Z69 There are 2 people that I know of running the victor efi intake.
SDI and Camcoijb. IIRC, it's about $350 for mnifold and rails from Summit. Unless you're doing your own machine work and welding, it's cheaper/the same price to just buy an intake.
I was quoted 250 for cutting and welding.
Those big chambers on stock air inlets are resonance chambers for noise cancellation.
The early SBC's had solid valve covers and a draft tube back by the dist. Basically just a tube ported to the valley. The front tube was just for oil fill.
Also, the old single planes don't flow near as well as the newer designs. Look at the port to head alignment. Not to mention the runner shape and size.
If it doesnt work that great I'll get a victor EFI.
Remember this is a blown application. ANd regardless, it will flow better than TPI.
Anyway, Yeah I looked at Victor EFI.. Manifold is 300, rails are another 90 or so. Shipping 10.00. Then I still need lines, regulator, tb, etc, etc anyway.
This manifold cost me $90.00, and some time.
I have access to a machine shop, own welding gear, etc.
If you look where the arrow points, that normally presses into the fuel rail. What i'm going to do, is 1) see if thats possible with the new rails. If not, i'll try threading the inside and putting a connector on it.
I know my fuel rails are 1/2" id, with 3/8 npt threaded ends. This regulator looks liek a 1/2" press in inlet, but I dont have my dial calipers with me.
yep, should be an o-ring seal on that. Fine a close drill size that will give you a bit of crush on the o-ring, and drill out the end of the fuel rail and your golden, but you do need to attach it somehow, a bracket and screw should work nicely. I believe the factory had it crimped on with its mounting bracket. If that doesn't work becuase its already tapped on the end, you may be able to drill into the side of the fuel rail with a clean hole, and cap off the threaded end.
The 93 LT1 fuel pressure spec is: 41-47 without vacuum, and 3-10 less with vacuum.
The IAC and TPS will work, as long as you put the correct connectors on your harness.
What CAD program are you using? I have an adapter mostly complete in Inventor, all I have left is the IAC. I made it centered.
Looking at the Vortec TB I have sitting here, what harm would it be to cut a notch in the TB bore where it would mate to the adapter for the IAC? Basically, make the IAC passage become part of the main throttle bore....
I never finished the model for the adapter after I realized it would probably not work too well without some plenum volume (N/A that is...) I have since decided that th Ram-Jet is going to be the way for me to go....
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Originally posted by JP84Z430HP The 93 LT1 fuel pressure spec is: 41-47 without vacuum, and 3-10 less with vacuum.
The IAC and TPS will work, as long as you put the correct connectors on your harness.
What CAD program are you using? I have an adapter mostly complete in Inventor, all I have left is the IAC. I made it centered.
Looking at the Vortec TB I have sitting here, what harm would it be to cut a notch in the TB bore where it would mate to the adapter for the IAC? Basically, make the IAC passage become part of the main throttle bore....
I never finished the model for the adapter after I realized it would probably not work too well without some plenum volume (N/A that is...) I have since decided that th Ram-Jet is going to be the way for me to go....
Hi,
41-47? Well thats a new set of numbers to add to my list of posted pressures. I'd like to be around 50psi at idle.
Not using a cad program. I believe that was microsoft paint. Adobe photoshop pissed me off at 7:00am.
If you look at my horrible graphic, what I did was center the TB bore in the adapter, then cut a notch into that centered bore for the IAC passage. I think we're saying to do the same thing?
If I cut the vac connector off the top of the regulator, weld a nut on it, and put a bolt in it; I can make it adjustable right? I'll then just have to tap a vac connector on the side right?
So far I have $133.00 into this (including shipping) and that covers manifold, tb, regulator, and ellectrical connectors.
Prolly 8-10 hours of labor porting/grinding the intake, and maybe a few more hours fabing stuff. Depending on how much I can do with the mill and lathe, and how much I have to do by hand with the dremel.
Only materials I need left is some plate aluminum, some tranny/fuel lines, nuts and bolts, and maybe some mig wire..
I had a bid in on that manifold on eBay. I'm an EFI newbie, so I wasn't willing to bid too high (and I just finished acquiring all my TPI parts). I'm very interested to see how it works out for you. Keep posting your progress!
I had a bid in on that manifold on eBay. I'm an EFI newbie, so I wasn't willing to bid too high (and I just finished acquiring all my TPI parts). I'm very interested to see how it works out for you. Keep posting your progress!
-Dave
Hi Dave,
Yeah the manifold needs work but i'm sure you can tell from the auction. I'll be keeping you all posted on the progress. I wanna get it done this week anyway, so. Guess i'll be cracking at it unless I run into a snag.
If your looking for TPI stuff, check out my ebay auctions. I sold my setup that I was running, but I still have another set of siamese runners, etc.
That 41-47 was taken from Alldata, and they get their stuff from GM (or whatever manufacturer you're looking up!)
I also checked a 97 LT1, and it says the same thing.
As for the IAC passage, we're saying ALMOST the same thing, I think you're talking about machining a passage into the adapter plate, and I'm talking about modifying the TB itself. I think a contoured passage on the adapter plate would be more ideal, but either should work (at least in MY head!)
The pressure reg mod seems like it may work, but maybe a quick look at what the LT1 guys are doing would be a good idea also. I'm sure they've already tried it! If nothing turns up, you could slway run one that is not mounted to the rail, I think Craing Moates mentioned one from Aeromotive that does a good job.....
If you take a close look at my pic I posted, you can see the reg behind the plenum. It's the stock TPI one instead of LT1, but I was able to drill and tap for 3/8 NPT fitting. Then I thread my 3/8 double flared line into that fitting. I don't know the technical terms for the brass fittings, but I'm sure you can figure it out with the pic. I am running about 40 PSI and it's been leak-free so far
The fuel system is one area that gm really didn't cut corners on. The rails and regulator extrusions are pretty high quality pieces from what I can tell.
Originally posted by onebinky If you take a close look at my pic I posted, you can see the reg behind the plenum. It's the stock TPI one instead of LT1, but I was able to drill and tap for 3/8 NPT fitting. Then I thread my 3/8 double flared line into that fitting. I don't know the technical terms for the brass fittings, but I'm sure you can figure it out with the pic. I am running about 40 PSI and it's been leak-free so far
The fuel system is one area that gm really didn't cut corners on. The rails and regulator extrusions are pretty high quality pieces from what I can tell.
Yeah I've got a tpi reglator lying around. but I like the lt1 regulator. In and out, simple. Can put it on the end of the front rail. I'm just curious if anyones made one adjustable.. 41-47psi is a bit low for my tune.
Originally posted by anesthes Yeah I've got a tpi reglator lying around. but I like the lt1 regulator. In and out, simple. Can put it on the end of the front rail. I'm just curious if anyones made one adjustable.. 41-47psi is a bit low for my tune.
-- Joe
Keep in mind, your tune will probably be a good bit different with the different intake, and the way you're aiming the injectors, it may like more or less pressure! You likely will need the adjustability.
Originally posted by JP84Z430HP Keep in mind, your tune will probably be a good bit different with the different intake, and the way you're aiming the injectors, it may like more or less pressure! You likely will need the adjustability.
Hi,
Yeah. My base pressure isn't really for the "tune" effect, its the max pressure I can run with them without having to get larger injectors. Though, I have a feeling i'll need to jump to 42s soon. (running 36s now).
Yeah the aim is a little wacky but. we'll see. Maybe I should get some 45` injector tips.
Some of my WOT full boost runs at 6k have gone static with the 36s, and the TPI regulator goes to like 60-65 psi under boost.
-- Joe
This block started out about 3 times larger than it is in the picture.
Its milled on the bottom side, and drilled to mount to the intake.
(need to get some studs tomorrow).
Still need to cut out the TB hole, and IAC passage. Then off to the bridgeport to mill the top .. When completed it will be exactly 1".
It hangs off the back a little bit in the pic, I'll cut that off tomorrow once the TB location is final. (the TB had bolts down in the back, so I want to leave enough area to tap out).
The fuel rails will bolt directly to the sides of the spacer.
