Daily Driven 383 Cam ??? - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

Doug Gulley · 05-05-2009, 01:09 AM

I've been off the internet for a while and I'm back now. I have done a lot of searching and reading threads concerning my questions.

My main question is would the Comp XFI 280 cam hyd roller (retro-fit for my block) would be a good choice for a DD or should I step down to a custom 224*/230* cam.

I'm rebuilding my 383 for use in a true daily driver. T56 and either 3.42 or 3.73 rear gears. I'm looking for any/all creative ideas, suggestions, and thoughts. I'll outline what I've got below. The cam is the only item I don't yet have.

383 2 pc RMS, KB hyper 12cc reverse dome pistons (4.040" 385 actual), 5.7 Scat rods and 9000 series crank. After engine mock-up, I plan on having the block zero-decked to my rotating assembly. With the recommended 1003 Fel-Pro head gasket at .041" comp thickness and zero deck my compression comes out to a calculated 10.04-1.

Induction will be Accel SuperRam (unported) with Holley 58mm t.b., Holley AFPR, 30# SVO injectors, and my choice of either TPIS Big Mouth or Accel bases (I have both - best?). 89 MAF with the '165 ECM.

Heads are older non-Elminator AFR 190's (unported) of about 66cc chambers and the AFR valves. 26120 beehive valve springs will be used instead of the 26918 beehives because of the larger dia spring pocket of the AFR heads. According to Comp, spring specs are as listed: seat press 155# @ 1.880" open press 377# @ 1.280" with .590" max lift. This is the big-block hyd roller valvespring. I also have the matching titanium retainers along with the AFR rev kit. These valvesprings are over and above what Comp recommends for the XFI 280 cam. I got a killer deal on them. I also have the Comp Pro Magnum 1.5 3/8" roller rockers. I may jump to a 7/16" 1.6 rockers in the near future.

My calculated DCR with the XFI 280 would be about 7.8-1. I know this is a little lower than most people run but I'm looking at the times I may have to run the lower octane fuel. Dropping down to the 224/230 cam would increase my DCR to about 8-1. Would this be too high to run the occasional tank of 80 something octane gas?

Is the XFI 280 too big for a DD 383 as far as reliability and low (to mid?) 20's mpg's?

Another question concern's my chip I use for start-up. Since this is an entirely new combo, would a stock 89 manual chip (with vats removed and burned for the 30# inj & T56) or would you have someone burn a safe start-up chip? I was looking at PCMforless. I will be trying to learn to burn my own chips but I want something safe to start this engine for the first time.

I know this is rather long but I've tried to include all information. Please give me some ideas. Any guesses on possible HP/torque?

Thanks to all

YenkoST · 05-05-2009, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Gulley

I've been off the internet for a while and I'm back now. I have done a lot of searching and reading threads concerning my questions.

My main question is would the Comp XFI 280 cam hyd roller (retro-fit for my block) would be a good choice for a DD or should I step down to a custom 224*/230* cam.

I'm rebuilding my 383 for use in a true daily driver. T56 and either 3.42 or 3.73 rear gears. I'm looking for any/all creative ideas, suggestions, and thoughts. I'll outline what I've got below. The cam is the only item I don't yet have.

383 2 pc RMS, KB hyper 12cc reverse dome pistons (4.040" 385 actual), 5.7 Scat rods and 9000 series crank. After engine mock-up, I plan on having the block zero-decked to my rotating assembly. With the recommended 1003 Fel-Pro head gasket at .041" comp thickness and zero deck my compression comes out to a calculated 10.04-1.

Induction will be Accel SuperRam (unported) with Holley 58mm t.b., Holley AFPR, 30# SVO injectors, and my choice of either TPIS Big Mouth or Accel bases (I have both - best?). 89 MAF with the '165 ECM.

Heads are older non-Elminator AFR 190's (unported) of about 66cc chambers and the AFR valves. 26120 beehive valve springs will be used instead of the 26918 beehives because of the larger dia spring pocket of the AFR heads. According to Comp, spring specs are as listed: seat press 155# @ 1.880" open press 377# @ 1.280" with .590" max lift. This is the big-block hyd roller valvespring. I also have the matching titanium retainers along with the AFR rev kit. These valvesprings are over and above what Comp recommends for the XFI 280 cam. I got a killer deal on them. I also have the Comp Pro Magnum 1.5 3/8" roller rockers. I may jump to a 7/16" 1.6 rockers in the near future.

My calculated DCR with the XFI 280 would be about 7.8-1. I know this is a little lower than most people run but I'm looking at the times I may have to run the lower octane fuel. Dropping down to the 224/230 cam would increase my DCR to about 8-1. Would this be too high to run the occasional tank of 80 something octane gas?

Is the XFI 280 too big for a DD 383 as far as reliability and low (to mid?) 20's mpg's?

Another question concern's my chip I use for start-up. Since this is an entirely new combo, would a stock 89 manual chip (with vats removed and burned for the 30# inj & T56) or would you have someone burn a safe start-up chip? I was looking at PCMforless. I will be trying to learn to burn my own chips but I want something safe to start this engine for the first time.

I know this is rather long but I've tried to include all information. Please give me some ideas. Any guesses on possible HP/torque?

Thanks to all

I have a 224/230 in my 383 HSR and I'll say its just about right for a daily driver. Compression needs to be about 10.25-10.5:1 for it but its a great cam...esp. with the SuperRam you have. I'll be jumping up to the 230+ range shortly only because I'm 11:1 compression and my car is no longer a daily driver.

If your interested in my cam, PM me...I'll be taking it out in the next few weeks. Its a Comp Cam XFI 224/230 on a 112 lsa.

Doug Gulley · 05-06-2009, 01:16 AM

YenkoST you have a PM.

Anyone else with comments/suggestions/ideas?

YenkoST · 05-06-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Gulley

YenkoST you have a PM.

Anyone else with comments/suggestions/ideas?

PM replied.

doc · 05-08-2009, 11:50 AM

Well, I can say something concerning the cam. I have run a 224/230 cam in my '87 Irocz 395 cu.in stroker with a SuperRam and now the StealthRam. In both cases with my tuning, the car is a nice idling daily driver. My only issue is coolant temperatures while stuck in heavy traffic.

Flip 2 · 05-11-2009, 12:03 PM

I have close to what you are talking about.
383, Super Ram, 280 XFI, 10:1, 1.6 rockers
A bit more cylinder head.

280 XFI is a nice cam, but I would say you would be MUCH happier with the (slightly) smaller cam. I have plenty of vacuum, but (smooth) idle is around 1000. This is a playtime car.

BTW, my hunch is; the only way to get 20-25 mpg with this setup is to have someone tow you half the time. Sorry.

anesthes · 05-11-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flip 2

BTW, my hunch is; the only way to get 20-25 mpg with this setup is to have someone tow you half the time. Sorry.

I'm running 224/230 cam, 10:1 compression and the powerdyne on a singleplane motor. tfs heads, 358 cubic inches, and so on.

Car weighs 2900 lbs, and I get an average of 24mpg.

I think quench plays a big role. better to use fuel to push down the piston rather than cool the chamber.

-- Joe

Doug Gulley · 05-12-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anesthes

I think quench plays a big role. better to use fuel to push down the piston rather than cool the chamber.

-- Joe

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their replies, it is a big help. I can't really afford to re-do much on it.

Joe, can you explain this a little bit deeper? I think I have a grasp on what you're saying but I'm a bit foggy, too. My quench is (mathmatically calculated) about .041" with a 12cc D-dish piston. I wanted to keep my quench as tight as possible for a street engine and I chose the 12cc dish to keep the compression down in case of needing to use lower octane. How is this going to effect my MPG's? If you need to PM me on this, feel free to unless you want to keep it on the board for the benefit of others who may be following this.

Okay, I'm now looking at a 224*/230* cam. Since this will now be a custom grind, I have a few questions on this. Would it be best to have the lobes ground on the XFI lobes or run the XE lobes? Would the XFI lobes be too harsh for a daily driver? What LSA would you have this cam ground on? I'm thinking about 112* but I'm open to discussion on 111*-114*. I do know cam selection is related to tuning and I'm not quite sure if I'll start out with a stock-type chip (modded for VATS-delete and my 30# inj) or have PCMforless burn me a good start-up chip. I have the Moates AutoProm but I'm still trying to grasp how to do custom tunes.

Thanks for any and all help guys. It's really appreciated.

Doug

Orr89RocZ · 05-12-2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Another question concern's my chip I use for start-up. Since this is an entirely new combo, would a stock 89 manual chip (with vats removed and burned for the 30# inj & T56) or would you have someone burn a safe start-up chip? I was looking at PCMforless. I will be trying to learn to burn my own chips but I want something safe to start this engine for the first time.

PCMforless gave me a starter bin that worked well for my 383. Was good enough to fire the motor and drive around but idle wasnt perfect and WOT tuning was way off but that is to be expected when doing mail order tunes with a combo like mine.

Daily driver has its definitions depending on who you talk to

My 230/245 cam on a 109 lsa would idle like a demon in sound but was stable enough that the car acted very tame on the street despite 11 to 1 compression and 400whp. I could easily have daily drove that car based on my definition of streetable is but others probly wouldnt agree. I dont mind the aggressive street car.

Alot of it is in the tune tho. Better the tune, the better the idle quality and gas mileage. I have no idea what my mileage was but i dont think it was over 20mpg highway... although close. This car wasnt ment for that tho so i didnt tune for mileage.

For your setup i do like the idea of a 220's duration cam. You can make that 280xfi work but the tune has to be there and I'd like to see abit more compression with that cam. I would think with a conservative timing curve, you could run 89 octane gas just fine.

XFI lobes are harder on the valvesprings than the XE lobes. For best street life, the XE lobes would be better choice, but XE lobes arent that docile either. They are a good lobe. My cam had some lazier lobes but with the duration i had and over .600 lift, i didnt need or want aggressive lobes. Valvespring life would have been 5000-7000 miles or so depending on how you drive it and I drove it pretty good.

For more of a daily driver, you can run 112 lsa. 110-112 is doable with 220's duration and MAF. Like i said, my cam was pretty nasty and it idled just fine. Lopey and mean, but stable enough that it wouldnt surge at idle. Throw it on a 112 and it would smooth out alot. Much easier to tune that cam. MAF seems to handle the tighter cams better... its less picky than map sensors.

slowgta · 05-14-2009, 01:52 AM

I'm a little biased, but I think your combo would be perfect for the tried and true Lingenfelter 219/219. A great cam for a potent daily driver. It is the cam that was designed for the Superram after all! They're still available direct from LPE.

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...egory_Code=C30

BTW, I get 24MPG... if I do my part and stay out of the throttle!

Doug Gulley · 05-15-2009, 12:56 PM

Well, I think the practical side of me and some help from you guys helped tame my decision a bit. I've decided to go with a custom ground XE 224*/230* but have it cut on a 112*LSA. I know it's better to err on the smaller side for a street cam and also since I'm just starting out learning to burn my own chips I don't need a cam that would cause additional challenges. Also, since the XE lobes are a bit tamer than the XFI lobes, maybe I won't have the long term worries about valvespring replacement.

Thanks for everyone's advice. It was a big help.

Flip 2 · 05-15-2009, 06:37 PM

Doug-
113 might work better.
Notes on my 383:
70cc heads (Dart Alum)
KB 100 pistons (basically flat tops)
(280 XFI, Super Ram)
This engine runs leaner and takes lots less advance than usually associated with SBCs. My advice would be to start under 30 degrees and work from there.

Sprayed92 · 05-17-2009, 09:53 PM

Honestly you can run a bigger cam than that puny 224/230 cam thats in your car now it all depends on how much you want mileage to suffer and if you can actually get someone that knows what they are doing to tune your car. A good friend of mine has a 246/254 cam in hsr 383 and the car runs and drives really well now granted mileage is not the greatest but that is also something you have to consider in running a cam that size. On the other hand ive got a 236/246 cam in my 355 and you would think the cam is smaller than it is. A lot of it has to do with your tune if you get a good tune you would be suprised on how well your car will run and drive.

Orr89RocZ · 05-17-2009, 10:10 PM

I was suggesting the 230/236 on a 110 which would be a good cam with that setup. The 224 will do well and be very driveable and easy to tune which are all good things. I just prefer abit more aggressive setups and would run the 230 cam

89gta383 · 05-17-2009, 10:27 PM

I second the LPE219 cam. I used it for years, got 20+ mpg, passed emissions, drove it daily. I've also used the 230-236 comp with a 114lsa and it was daily driveable also. Tuning is what will get your mpg, I got 19mpg driving 4 hours with a 242-254 110lsa cam, so cam size is not the problem.

You have to be able to deal with the noise, smell, lope, shake, etc for a daily driver cam. The smaller the cam, the less fine tuning it's going to need.

Doug Gulley · 05-18-2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ

I was suggesting the 230/236 on a 110 which would be a good cam with that setup. The 224 will do well and be very driveable and easy to tune which are all good things. I just prefer abit more aggressive setups and would run the 230 cam

So do I

Quote:

Originally Posted by 89gta383

I've also used the 230-236 comp with a 114lsa and it was daily driveable also. Tuning is what will get your mpg, I got 19mpg driving 4 hours with a 242-254 110lsa cam, so cam size is not the problem.

You have to be able to deal with the noise, smell, lope, shake, etc for a daily driver cam. The smaller the cam, the less fine tuning it's going to need.

Man am I glad I couldn't order that cam yet, this is exactly what I was wanting to hear! It's going to be the XE 230/236 110 cam. I can deal with the noise, smell, lope, and shake. I've done it before in a carbed 69 Camaro. I miss that 230* 106* LSA cam. I'm not saying I'm as good at tuning but if it's possible to get 19 mpg from a 242/254 cam then I "should" be able to get lo-20's with a much smaller cam.

Would it be wise to have PCMforless burn a startup chip for the XE 230/236 cam or would a stock-type '89 chip (with VATS delete and modded for my 30# inj) enable this setup to start and run fairly decently until I can get my feet wet in tuning?

I just hope you guys are up to answering a bunch of dumb (but honestly sincere) questions from a noobie chip tuner!

Thanks a bunch guys!!!

89gta383 · 05-19-2009, 07:04 AM

My current cam is a 230-.600 107 lsa but I wouldn't call it a daily driver cam. Less noise and stink and it would be a good daily cam.

Orr89RocZ · 05-19-2009, 07:36 AM

I never calculated my gas mileage with my 230-245 cam. I didnt have it tuned all that great for mileage anyway, but if it was tuned abit leaner for mileage, I think it would easily got near 20mpg. City/daily short commuting around on and off throttle was 14-15mpg. 20 would have been for certain.