Alternative Port EFI IntakesThis board is for tech discussions and questions about aftermarket port EFI such as the HSR, MR, SR, BBK, FIRST, etc.
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Formula_novice, we all pretty much have the same throttle bracket issue unless you use a Holley TB. I use a BBK 58mm and actually made a 3/4" aluminum spacer to go in between the TB and upper intake. Nothing excpet a block of aluminum but I figure in the future I can drill / tap it for nitrous, or machine the needed details for an extra injector or two when I'm back to being supercharged.
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I got the car running tonight and so far it sounds awesome! But I have a problem... i unpugged the vacuum line from the AFPR and, according to my guage, I have 22 PSI at the rails??? I then tried to adjust it and it went up to around 30 PSI. I tried to tighten it some more but it dropped down to 20-ish again???
Do you think my pressure guage is messed up? Or does this sound like a bad AFPR? I haven't driven it yet but the engine seems to idle ok.
Sounds like a bad regulator if its adjusting and pressure is all over the place. Not sure why it would be a bad regulator tho since its brand new from the kit.
New rails/lines etc try keep priming the system and let it fill up with fuel. Could be air in the lines? But I'm not sure.
Thanks Orr89RocZ! I will hook the vacuum line back up tomorrow and maybe take it around the block for a spin and see how it runs.
Man, adjusting that Holley AFPR is a PITA! It's tough to get at the thing to unhook the vacuum line and then I about baked while using a long screwdriver to adjust it!
Sounds like a possible bad unit. Not having a second unit to try out quickly though isn't doing you any favors nailing down the real issue. There's the "urban legends" of these AFPR failing right out of the box and thats when guys go with the Kirban or Kerban (spelling?) fuel pressure units. Hope you get it squared away, DON'T drive that car with the FP that low though. Only bad things will result. Hope you get it straightened out soon.
Man, adjusting that Holley AFPR is a PITA! It's tough to get at the thing to unhook the vacuum line and then I about baked while using a long screwdriver to adjust it!
I guess no one said it would be easy
That is why you are supposed to mount the regulator 180* so that the vacuum line is facing the drivers side.
the 3 sets of pictures I posted showed 2 with the vacuum facing the pass side (how mine is) and 1 showing it facing the drivers side (I told my friend to mount it that way so that you can adjust it easier).
As far as I know, the Kirban is a direct fit, bolt in. If it is a bad afpr unit out the box, you could try to contact holley and they will send another
Good news! I contacted Summit and they looked up the AFPR part number and are shipping me a new one on Monday. They are even having UPS pickup my old one for free!
I just hope the new one works If it doesn't, I'm definately going with the Kirban.
I got the car running tonight and so far it sounds awesome! But I have a problem... i unpugged the vacuum line from the AFPR and, according to my guage, I have 22 PSI at the rails??? I then tried to adjust it and it went up to around 30 PSI. I tried to tighten it some more but it dropped down to 20-ish again???
Do you think my pressure guage is messed up? Or does this sound like a bad AFPR? I haven't driven it yet but the engine seems to idle ok.
Thanks!
I agree with the others, its definitely the regulator. Mine actually did the exact same thing...useless right out of the box. Honestly wouldnt even bother with another Holley unit. I went with the Kirban and havent looked back.
I got my new AFPR today and installed it. Fuel pressure out of the box was 46psi. I went ahead and bumped it to 48psi. I turned the car off and a few min later fired it back up. The fuel pressure (with the vacuum still unplugged) was 44psi??? I then bumped it to 45 psi and noticed it would sometimes be 45 and other times 44psi. So I have a "better" but unreliable replacement Holley AFPR.
I'm planning on ordering the Kirban unit this week and hopefully that will take care of the problem.
Glad you got it replaced. I have a Holley stock style TPI AFPR that I used with my last intake setup. That thing was a piece of SHlT!!! 1 word for us HSR owner, Kirban.
Good news! My Kirban AFPR showed up today. Got it installed and the fuel pressure is holding perfectly! I also mounted the adjustment screw facing the fender (as recommended above) and it is way easier to adjust now.
I'm still working on getting it to idle... seems to want to surge a bit but I will keep playing with it.
Right now, I have my fuel pressure set at 47psi. I know this is a pretty good pressure for a TPI setup, but what does everyone recommend for a HSR? I spoke with a local guy about this and he said he runs 43psi on his HSR. Any opinions?
give it what seems to work best. I ran 46 on my car back in the day when it was L98 with HSR. Seemed to like that and 8 degrees base timing best...but it was hard to tell on the street. Those mild differences may only see few hp at best.
IMHO I would keep the pressure as low as posible an not exceed an 80% duty cycle on the injectors. I would not go lower than the factory 43.5 pressure. This will help in a better running motor in the low rpms.
The problem I'm having with my stock HSR non adjustable FPR is the pressure isn't above 42psi. I'm running 60# injectors and even though I can tune more fuel in the RPMS / KPa I need under boost I still don't want to jack the duty cycle of the injectors like said. Looks like a damn Kirban is in my future soon too now. HSR has 1300 miles on it.
I also got a bad AFPR right out of the box. My new one is holding up so far.
Ditto.
As far as torque loss... I didn't notice any going from TPI. From Big Mouth it'd be the same. Ran 3.27 gears with stock torque converter and all. Now running 3.70's with a TKO trans and it's a ball to drive. Torque loss (if any) is no big deal when you can spin the tires on the street so easilly.
I'm still trying to perfect my idle... it's got about a 150rpm surge. A friend told me that it might be play in the throttle body blades? So, I'm thinking about ordering a Summit 52mm throttle body.
I also dropped the fuel pressure down from about 48 to 45 last night and plan on taking it out soon to see if it helped.
Not trying to get off topic but I'm starting to think my XFI-268 cam is a bit on the small side for the HSR. Maybe I should go with a XFI-280?
I'm still trying to perfect my idle... it's got about a 150rpm surge. A friend told me that it might be play in the throttle body blades? So, I'm thinking about ordering a Summit 52mm throttle body.
I also dropped the fuel pressure down from about 48 to 45 last night and plan on taking it out soon to see if it helped.
Not trying to get off topic but I'm starting to think my XFI-268 cam is a bit on the small side for the HSR. Maybe I should go with a XFI-280?
Thanks!
Check the TB shaft play by opening it 1/2 way and moving the shaft up/down. Unless it moves a LOT it probably isn't the problem.
I run 45 PSI on my fuel pressure at WOT.
Cam. I don't remember the part number but I'm running a CC 212/280 cam (264 advertised duration) which is just about what you have. Idles great at 750 RPM with a little lope. I think it is a perfect match for the L98 with HSR. You certianly go hotter with the cam but your idle won't get better- only worse.
Forgive me if I missed something in this thread but are you tuning your own program? My HSR did OK with the stock prom but I didn't get great drivability, idle and power til I started tuning. It's a must!
Check the TB shaft play by opening it 1/2 way and moving the shaft up/down. Unless it moves a LOT it probably isn't the problem.
Thanks for the tip! I will check it tonight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antman89iroc
I run 45 PSI on my fuel pressure at WOT.
When you say at WOT, how are you setting it to 45 PSI? With vacuum? The only way I know how to set mine is with the vacuum disconnected from the FPR and car idling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antman89iroc
I'm running a CC 212/280 cam (264 advertised duration) which is just about what you have. Idles great at 750 RPM with a little lope.
I'm going to assume that is a CC 212/218 and not 212/280
Quote:
Originally Posted by antman89iroc
Forgive me if I missed something in this thread but are you tuning your own program? My HSR did OK with the stock prom but I didn't get great drivability, idle and power til I started tuning. It's a must!
I have a chip TPIS custom burned for me to match my Bigmouth/long tube setup with the same heads, cam, etc. So far, its running ok. I won't argue that it could use a little tweaking.
When you say at WOT, how are you setting it to 45 PSI? With vacuum? The only way I know how to set mine is with the vacuum disconnected from the FPR and car idling.
That would be vaccum disconnected. WOT = little/no vacuum.
Your problem with the Distributor not going all the way down is simple. The oil pump driveshaft needs to be moved, use a screw driver and turn it in the direction, that the rotor in the distributor is facing the Number 1 post on the cap, then set your timing, and you'll be good.
may need to tweak idle fueling via prom changes to get that thing to stabilize at idle. Need to set desired idle speed in chip, and then reset IAC sensor and adjust TB idle screw til the IAC counts are really low at idle, like below 20 counts is pretty good. That, along with the fueling/timing changes will tame idle down
Thanks Orr89RocZ! Sorry for getting back to you guys so late.
I took the car out this weekend and tweaked it a bit... the car seemed sluggish so I bumped the TPS sensor (at idle) to .60 and it seemed help. After that I played with the base timing and ran the motor at both 8 and 10*. Although there wasn't a huge difference, it seemed to run better at 8*.
I also put on a new Magnaflow catback this weekend but really didn't notice much difference in the "butt dyno".
I'm hoping to talk to TPIS this week about adjusting my chip and also order a 52mm throttle body.
I think my combo is pretty decent but it just doesn't seem to pull as hard as I would've thought. Anyone have any suggestions on what else to check/change?
The HSR intake is great, but you need to be more in the upper rpm range. It's basically just like a dual quad intake for carbs, but for fuel injection. A stock TB is fine with a 350, u don't need to go bigger unless your forced induction, run nitrous or have more cubes, it will cost you horsepower and will be more lazy.
In GM high tech, these guys found the best timing to be 14* base timing, along with 38 PSI going to 24* SVO injectors, I am running the same injectors and timing, it runs great. Along with my 2400 stall, the old modified TPI intake, on the footbrake, would stall out at 1500 RPM, or 1350 with the stock converter. Now with the HSR, it stalls at around 1700-1750 RPM, Now I am going to put in a 3000 stall from midwest torque converters, and this thing will really scream. When you hit 3500 or higher, the motor screams, and sounds so great.
Check out my install, I'm going to try to adjust the timing a little and see how it runs. I also installed thinner head gaskets, for more compression, also making the car more responsive and make some more power, it cools great, I barely use the fans, unless I'm idling a lot.
I dropped my fuel pressure to 40psi yesterday and took the car out for a drive. It seemed to idle a little better (minimal surging) but it shuttered a bit at stoplights.
This was still at 8* timing. When I was playing around with the timing last weekend, I did have it at 12* for a few minutes but the car seemed to shutter some, so I went back down to 8*.
Also at 40psi, my block learn seemed better running between 118-131 at part-throttle. I'm going to contact TPIS today, tell them my results, and have them reburn my chip.
you can throw as much base timing as you want but until the chip has been set to change the computer does whatever it wants after that wire is hooked back up... If you have trouble with tpis...look into Ed Wright chips, that article shows you how good of a swap the stealth ram is look at how much they gained just from an intake swap!!! It makes you relize how much of a cork the TPI intake really is!! And as far as needing to be in the upper rpm range... I have an insane amount of lowend torque!! And i have spun my engine past 7 grand (not on purpose) but it just kept pulling with the stealth ram..no corking effect what so ever!!
__________________ 355,stealth ram,dart platinum heads 200cc, gm hot cam..lunati pro mod 5.7 rods, je pistons,total seal gapless 2nd rings..sh*&^y 700r4 tranny...getting things together for t56 swap and 9" really lookin into a single turbo...
Base timing is added into the spark table in the chip, but if you have chip set at 6 degree base timing and your actually at 10 degrees base, your getting 4 degrees more spark at every operating point in the spark table.
Your gonna have to play with the motor/tune to see what it likes. My car liked 8 degree base timing when i didnt have tuning stuff. I later changed the tables to allow that extra few degrees of advance and brought max timing at WOT in sooner...at 3000 rpm i had full timing. Stock tables can be as much as 4-5 degrees lower at those mid range rpms so your losing midrange power there. Just like a carb setup, set max timing to come in at 3000 or so rpm and you'll pick up power. 34-36 degrees at max seemed to work best for me on both my stock L98 and my 383.
The stock timing tables in the eprom, will still be run regardless of what your base timing is. However, if you run 8* timing, the computer still puts in its amount of timing, if you run 14* or 17*, it will base the timing off that mark.
Depending on how much advance and timing you run, especially base timging, the motor can make more torque, be more responsive or have a negative effect on things, thats why you need to try diff timing.
The car changes the timing, off what you have the base timing in, by the coolant temp sensor, and mostly the MAF or MAP sensor, it sees how much airs entering the engine, and the TPS and MAF/MAP are looking at the values, to see if the engines under load, if it is then it will bump the timing up.
Hi Guys,
Just a quick update... Got my chip back and installed. Had it reburned at TPIS. Took the car for a drive and the block learn is much better (between 120-131).
Set the timing to 6* and the fuel pressure to 43psi per TPIS instructions. However it doesn't feel like there's much low end power, so I'm going to try bumping the timing up to 8 and 10* and see how it does.
Hi Guys,
Just a quick update... Got my chip back and installed. Had it reburned at TPIS. Took the car for a drive and the block learn is much better (between 120-131).
Set the timing to 6* and the fuel pressure to 43psi per TPIS instructions. However it doesn't feel like there's much low end power, so I'm going to try bumping the timing up to 8 and 10* and see how it does.
Thanks again fro all the help!
I didn't go back and look at all your specs but something doesn't sound right. I have great low end power with HSR. She pulls fifth gear at 1500 no problem. And you may want to find out how much total timing TPIS put in your chip. Bumping up the base timing is a great wat to check but you may end up with too much total. My combo likes 30' total timing WOT. Much more and the computer ends up pulling a lot more out so you end up worse than you started (total). The stock heads (083's for me) are actually great buring combustion chambers and don't require a lot of total like the old double humps heads did. I used to run old motors at 38' or so total. These engines just don't need it. 0.02.
I've read about guys having a HSR with great low-end grunt but mine just doesn't seem to have it. I'm not sure what I can do other than bump the timing or fuel pressure.
Any ideas of what could be causing the loss?
__________________ 355, balanced rotating assembly, flat-top Speed Pro coated skirt pistons, ~10:1, Holley Stealth Ram, Dart Iron Eagle 180cc Heads, XFI268-13 cam, Hughes 2500 Stall, Hedman Headers, Ford 24# Injectors, Comp Cams Magnum 1.6 Roller Rockers, Cloyes Double-Roller Timing Chain, TPIS Stage 5 PROM, 180* Thermostat, 200* Aux Fan Switch, TPIS Air Foil, Kirban AFPR, Edelbrock Elite Valve Covers, 97-Style Ram Air Hood, Aluminum Underdrive pulleys, smog/egr delete
My setup is mis matched right now. I need a 2800-3000 stall, and gears. But right now I have the stock 1600 stall, and 2.77's. The car drives just like it did before. I can still light them up from a stop no problem. Makes me kind of feel the "TPI Torque" is kind of over rated.
__________________ 1988 IROC-Z 14.0@98mph 2.07 60 Ft (Stock setup)
L98 now with a little AFR, and a bit of comp cam. - [The new "slightly" faster L98]
My setup is mis matched right now. I need a 2800-3000 stall, and gears. But right now I have the stock 1600 stall, and 2.77's. The car drives just like it did before. I can still light them up from a stop no problem. Makes me kind of feel the "TPI Torque" is kind of over rated.
What do you mean TPI torque is over rated? My TPI setup over my HSR had a lot more torque down low than the HSR, its designed to make upper end power, not as much torque down low, until you get into the RPMs!
On my ported TPI setup, on my 2400 B&M stall, with my TPI setup, it would stall out to about 1500, now with the HSR, it stalls out to about 1750ish depending on traction, and my rear suspension is completely done, with LCR's, lakewood control arms, and a boxed in panhard bar, and nitto 555r's! I'm also running longtube headers, true duals, advanced the cam to make more torque, have 1.6 roller rockers, and world sportsman II heads, so its setup to make more torque for a 350, check out my install.
A lot of you have had problems with your pressure regulator eh? Your using the adjustable one right? Because I barely ran mine for a few days and it was also leaking right away; but I didn't call holley right away, because they might not give me a replacement one; although I bought my HSR and fuel rail setup in july of 2005, and didn't use it till july of '09.
So you think I should call holley or summit and ask for a replacement?
A lot of you have had problems with your pressure regulator eh? Your using the adjustable one right? Because I barely ran mine for a few days and it was also leaking right away; but I didn't call holley right away, because they might not give me a replacement one; although I bought my HSR and fuel rail setup in july of 2005, and didn't use it till july of '09.
So you think I should call holley or summit and ask for a replacement?
I went thru two Holly AFPR and both were junk. I'm using a KIRBAN now and have it set at 43psi.
I was told by "some", switching to the HSR is going to make me lose a lot of torque. I was also told by "some" that going with the AFR 195's over the 180's is going to make it sloppy driving around town.
And it all was not true (for me at least). I'm glad I asked here and went with the HSR and 195's. I feel as have just as much torque as before, and it actually will pull to 6000 rpms.
Last edited by IROCThe5.7L; 08-29-2009 at 05:13 PM.
A lot of you have had problems with your pressure regulator eh? Your using the adjustable one right? Because I barely ran mine for a few days and it was also leaking right away; but I didn't call holley right away, because they might not give me a replacement one; although I bought my HSR and fuel rail setup in july of 2005, and didn't use it till july of '09.
So you think I should call holley or summit and ask for a replacement?
My new Holley AFPR started leaking within a month. Holley replaced it with one phone call- no questions asked. The new one has been running about a year now. I have heard others complain about the Holley AFPR and I would go with the Kirban regulator if this one goes out.
I was told by "some", switching to the HSR is going to make me lose a lot of torque. I was also told by "some" that going with the AFR 195's over the 180's is going to make it sloppy driving around town.
And it all was not true (for me at least). I'm glad I asked here and went with the HSR and 195's. I feel as have just as much torque as before, and it actually will pull to 6000 rpms.
i agree 100% on the 195's and wouldnt trade the HSR back for the TPI for the maybe 10ft lbs of tq i might be missing down low
I am new to ThirdGen and also to installing HSR so bear with me. This thread has addressed many issues I have encountered with the HSR install so this is good. Something I need some help with though. I was trying to use the stock injectors which are the Bosch type #5235302 with the aluminum tip. The problem is that when I seat in the injectors top and bottom, the holes through the rails for the bolts do not match up with the holes on the intake. The rails need to go down another 2-3 mm. I was told stock injectors would work. Is this not correct? Do I need different injectors? I would have thought they would all be the same length as far as lining up the bolt holes are concerned.
Thanks for the help.
I am new to ThirdGen and also to installing HSR so bear with me. This thread has addressed many issues I have encountered with the HSR install so this is good. Something I need some help with though. I was trying to use the stock injectors which are the Bosch type #5235302 with the aluminum tip. The problem is that when I seat in the injectors top and bottom, the holes through the rails for the bolts do not match up with the holes on the intake. The rails need to go down another 2-3 mm. I was told stock injectors would work. Is this not correct? Do I need different injectors? I would have thought they would all be the same length as far as lining up the bolt holes are concerned.
Thanks for the help.
I had basically the same problem and had to elongate the holes on the fuel rail to get the bolts to line up. It's been a couple of years ago but I think I just drilled the holes on the fuel rail out one size. You gotta make sure that you don't hit the hole inside that the fuel goes through. I think I also re-tapped the holes in the intake so the bolts would start easier.
BTW the stock injectors are good for a pretty hot motor. I make over 250 WHP and run 8.40's 1/8 mile and 7.60's with a shot of N2O.
14psi, street tune 
When I take mine off, I will face it this way. 
355,stealth ram,dart platinum heads 200cc, gm hot cam..lunati pro mod 5.7 rods, je pistons,total seal gapless 2nd rings..sh*&^y 700r4 tranny...getting things together for t56 swap and 9" really lookin into a single turbo... 
i agree 100% on the 195's and wouldnt trade the HSR back for the TPI for the maybe 10ft lbs of tq i might be missing down low 
