upgrade to HSR? - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

formula_novice · 06-28-2009, 09:27 PM

Hi Guys,
I need to replace my TPIS Bigmouth intake (long story). I'm considering either buying an Edelbrock TPI intake or upgrading to a Stealth Ram. I spoke with a guy about the HSR and he claims there is no torque loss down low and it is just a great intake all around.

However, according to many searches here and stealthram.com, there is a fair loss of both HP and TQ down low & in the mid-range.

My car is a weekend, non-raced car (see sig) and I normally drive under 80MPH & under 4000rpm. I love the torque and quick response of my setup and hate to lose it... but the large HP numbers of the HSR are very tempting!

So my question to you all is, would you recommend I stay with a TPI setup or upgrade to the HSR?

If I went with HSR, would a higher rear-gear ratio bring the powerband down where I like to drive?

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

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scamaro355 · 06-28-2009, 09:50 PM

man i love my stealth ram....i was running a tbi setup then switched over to it...if i mat it from a dead stop it just melts the tires...from a 20 mph roll...i can get some smoke....i didnt see a big loss of torque...look at my sig for my combo...its not to far off from yours

WASyL · 06-29-2009, 03:41 AM

i swiched from TPI to HSR and i havn't noticed ant TQ or HP

best regards

Zepher · 06-29-2009, 08:26 AM

on my little 305 i noticed that the torque moved up in the rpm band.
I think I put down decent numbers for a stock 305 with headers and an hsr with 165k miles on the motor.

195/273 at the wheels.

formula_novice · 06-29-2009, 08:32 AM

Thanks for the replies!

It sounds like the torque loss in the bottom end is fairly unnoticeable (on a L98). I've been reading more posts and it sounds like a lot of people have had issues with the throttle bracket not fitting, throttle body not fitting, throttle cable too short, etc. Are these issues pretty common? I'm also concerned about running new fuel lines... I'm not a great "fab" guy, so I'm wondering if this swap may be out of my league?

WASyL · 06-29-2009, 09:16 AM

i had no problem with that bracket - used stock from TPI, but i use holley avenger TB so no clue about stock TB

best regards

formula_novice · 06-29-2009, 11:50 AM

Thanks WASyL!

Did you have any issues with the throttle/cruise cables?

WASyL · 06-29-2009, 12:40 PM

not at all, it was all p&p

best regards

3rd gen Will · 06-29-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by formula_novice

Thanks for the replies!

It sounds like the torque loss in the bottom end is fairly unnoticeable (on a L98). I've been reading more posts and it sounds like a lot of people have had issues with the throttle bracket not fitting, throttle body not fitting, throttle cable too short, etc. Are these issues pretty common? I'm also concerned about running new fuel lines... I'm not a great "fab" guy, so I'm wondering if this swap may be out of my league?

The throttle body problem is with the newer style linkage the throttle body linkage hits the HSR fuel rails because of the crossover in the front. I believe they started the newer style TB in 89. From my research if you use the professional products fuel rails you don't have this problem because the cross over does not have to be in the front, I don't know this for a fact. You can however switch to the older style cable, which we did on my buddy's 92. Then you need an older style linkage for you TB, he had to prof products one that had both throttle linkages. We got the longer of the 2 cables from napa, 33" if I remember right. Fuel lines are easy, get the adapter go to -6 and some steel braid and fittings, then all you needs is a hack saw and some patience. Leather gloves help also, unless you don't mind getting stabbed in the fingers by the lines when you are assembling them.

Zepher · 06-29-2009, 02:57 PM

I see that you have the same hood I have so you won't have clearance issues with the tb.
I can't remember if I had the hsr on when I was still an auto but I didn't have any issues with the throttle cable.

For the braided fuel lines, you could go to a hydraulic shop and see if they carry the lines and fittings, if they do they can assemble them for you. Hampton Rubber in my area carry the lines and fittings and can assemble them for a small fee.

I made my own lines but I had them convert part of my stock tpi hard line to AN since I couldn't locate the 5/16 adaptor.
I'll post a pic or two when I get upstairs, currently in the garage typing on my little dell mini 9.

formula_novice · 06-29-2009, 04:14 PM

Thanks a million for the info & pics!!!

Will standard sbc intake bolts work on this intake? Or does it require a holley intake kit? I'm using regular (non-centerbolt) heads.

Thanks again!

Zepher · 06-29-2009, 04:34 PM

Standard bolts should work fine and the HSR (at least mine) is angled for your style head. there are washers available for the centerbolt head so that the 4 center bolts sit flush on the washer, but you should be fine.

formula_novice · 06-30-2009, 07:46 AM

Thanks Zephyr!

Here is the parts list I believe I need...

RUS-610160 (90 degree -6 AN Hose to Female -6 AN) x 2
RUS-632070 (-6 AN, 10 ft. Length)
EAR-9894DBHERL (-6 AN Hose End to 14mm x 1.5 Female)
EAR-9894DBJERL (-6 AN Hose End to 16mm x 1.5 Female)
RUS-610020 (Straight, -6 AN Hose to Female -6 AN) x 2

Can anyone confirm this is correct? I'm not sure about the fuel line connection to the back of the intake. Would I just use two of the RUS-610020?

Thanks again!

scamaro355 · 06-30-2009, 09:21 AM

hey man also check out www.stealthram.com it helped me out alot

formula_novice · 06-30-2009, 10:13 AM

Thanks scamaro355! I read that site earlier but missed the fuel rail pics.

I ordered the HSR this morning and the fittings listed above.

Can anyone tell me if a Fel-Pro 1256 intake gasket will work with the HSR? I did a search but couldn't find any info on this.

Thanks again everyone!

scamaro355 · 06-30-2009, 11:26 AM

im not sure about the gasket...i used a felpro 1205...perfect match for the ports

formula_novice · 06-30-2009, 06:53 PM

Ok... I'll look into the 1205.

Is there an adapter I can get so I can use my existing TPI fuel pressure guage?

Thanks again guys!

formula_novice · 07-01-2009, 03:23 PM

Just a quick update... everything is on order and should be here tomorrow.

I picked up the mr gasket waterneck & hose last night at Advance auto and will get the 1205 gasket today.

Does both the sensor in the front of the manifold and the one under the plenum screw into the back of the HSR plenum?

Thanks!

formula_novice · 07-01-2009, 03:25 PM

Just a quick update... everything is on order and should be here tomorrow.

I picked up the mr gasket waterneck & hose last night at Advance auto and will get the 1205 gasket today.

Does both the sensor in the front of the manifold and the one under the plenum screw into the back of the HSR plenum?

Thanks!

Zepher · 07-01-2009, 07:27 PM

I put the front sensor on the front top drivers side of the HSR base (this one is a coolant temp sensor for the ECM) and the bottom sensor in the bottom of the HSR plenum, this is the intake air temp sensor.

The back of my HSR only has vacuum lines.

Also, there are 2 ways to mount the fuel pressure regulator, one way has the outlet facing the drivers side of the car and the other way faces the passenger side.
Having it face the drivers side makes it harder to adjust the regulator since you will need a long screwedriver and will be adjusting it from the pass side, and putting the vacuum, line back on is a little tough.

Having it face the pass side requires a 90* AN fitting and allows you to adjust the regulator from the drivers side with ease.

I'll bring my camera with me tonight and if I meet up with my friend, I'll snap a few pics of his engine since his is set up with the regulator facing the pass side while mine faces the drivers side.

Orr89RocZ · 07-01-2009, 10:29 PM

Missed this thread... you'll like the HSR. Torque curve moves up. It does sacrifice a small amount of power/tq in the lower range since thats where TPI peaks. HSR will peak higher than TPI so on a dyno you will see a torque difference.

The main thing is the HSR flattens the torque curve which creates a smooth acceleration pull at all rpms. More average torque is made and the car should be much quicker overall with HSR over TPI on a motor like the one in your sig.

My L98 with HSR was much more fun to drive than the stock TPI. Didnt notice much loss in torque but the 2800 stall converter helped that out.

Sounds like you have all the right parts.

My build i had the coolant temp sensor in one of the front ports on the HSR base by the waterneck. Any will do. Plug any others not needed.

Intake air temp sensor can screw in under the plenum or in the back of the plenum. Your choice. I went with the back since it was easier to do with the wiring harness. The spot under the plenum i used for PCV valve hookup.

The other spots in the back of the HSR plenum are used for EGR/other random vacuum lines , brake booster, and fuel pressure regulator.

THey do make a fitting i believe that will allow you to use TPI style fuel guage. Grainger makes them i believe. HSR is a 1/8 npt fitting if i recall, and TPI is something else obviously but i cant recall what it is. You'd have to search for it on here.

Other easier option is to buy a 20 dollar summit fuel guage for rail mounting (water filled) and a 90 degree fitting 1/8npt male to 1/8npt female. Fitting goes in the HSR rail fitting port and the gauge goes to the fitting. That way you can see fuel pressure all the time

formula_novice · 07-02-2009, 10:04 PM

Thanks Orr89RocZ and Zepher! Much appreciated!

I have a problem with the passenger side, rear fuel rail fitting... the piece that goes in there only fits if i screw the -6AN fitting into the rail. This leaves the small end sticking out and won't fit my -6AN fuel line connection.

Attached is a pic of the piece I'm referring to.

The only two pieces left in the bag are the 2 barb fittings.

Any ideas? I would assume I need a -6AN male to -6AN male adapter???

Thanks!

formula_novice · 07-02-2009, 10:18 PM

Also, where does the vaccuum line hookup to the adjustable fuel pressure regulator?

formularpm · 07-03-2009, 12:10 PM

If I recall correctly, the non-AN side will fit the fuel rail, and the AN side should fit your fuel line.

The vacuum line actually hooks up over the adjustment screw.

formula_novice · 07-03-2009, 12:22 PM

Thanks formularpm!

Do you take the adjustment screw out or leave it in and slide the hose over it?

Orr89RocZ · 07-03-2009, 12:42 PM

The fittings in the rails are -6an o-ring style fittings unless holley changed them in the past few years.
The fitting in the kit for the fuel rail should be a -6an oring to -6an male fitting. The o-ring side of that fitting in the pic should go into the rail and the rounded side is for your -6an lines. Both ends will thread in the rails just fine since they are both -6 an. You just need to make sure the flat end with the o-ring goes in the rail

formula_novice · 07-03-2009, 01:33 PM

Thanks Orr89RocZ!

They must've change the fitting... mine is something small w/ o-ring to a -6AN. I'll have to order a fitting.

I'm trying to put my stock distributor in but it won't seat flush against the intake. Any advice???

Orr89RocZ · 07-03-2009, 06:55 PM

Is the dizzy going in all the way down? its probly not meshing well with the cam gear and not dropping all the way in

formula_novice · 07-03-2009, 09:21 PM

No matter what I do, it doesn't seem like it "drops" into place like it should. It needs to go down about a half inch...

A stock 89 distributor should work with the HSR, right?

Orr89RocZ · 07-04-2009, 10:35 AM

I used my stock 89 dizzy for my HSR swap and my 383 HSR motor and plan to use it again for my 400 build

formula_novice · 07-04-2009, 10:43 AM

Were you able to use the factory style cap? Or did u have to use an smaller aftermarket one?

Is there a way to adjust the cam gears so the dist will mesh well?

Thanks!

Burnout91 · 07-04-2009, 12:33 PM

Make sure the slot at the top of the oil pump driveshaft is aligned with the flat drive "blade" at the bottom of the distributor shaft. Look down the distributor hole in the intake manifold, and use a long flat-blade screwdriver to turn the oil pump drive to a known position. Remember, the distributor shaft will rotate slightly as the dizzy gear and the cam gear begin to mesh.

Bill

formula_novice · 07-04-2009, 12:39 PM

Thanks Bill!

For some reason, the dist was hard to take out... felt like it was stuck... after a good amount of wiggling, it finally came out.

Now I'm having trouble putting it back in... I made sure the oil pump and dist blade aligned but it just doesn't want to go down all the way. I figured it wasn't meshing with the cam gear as Orr89RocZ had mentioned above.

If I simlpy bump the starter, will the dist fall into place?

Orr89RocZ · 07-04-2009, 04:12 PM

YOu can try rotating it by hand alittle to move things if its still not dropping but it should fall. And yes i used my 89 small cap dizzy.

Street Lethal · 07-04-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by formula_novice

If I simlpy bump the starter, will the dist fall into place?

Using a very long flat head screwdriver, either that or a single tire iron, turn the oil pump drive, and face it in the correct direction, then simply drop the distributor into place....

formula_novice · 07-04-2009, 05:29 PM

Thanks for the advice, guys!

I took out the spark plugs and turned the crank just a little bit. Then the dist fell right in!

I've never had that problem before, but I guess there's a first time for everything

Dumb HSR noob question: If you are facing the engine, is it the hard fuel line closest to the firewall that goes to the rear pass side of the HSR? Or does that one go to the regulator?

Zepher · 07-04-2009, 06:59 PM

when you look at the hard lines on the car, the larger one (3/8") goes to the pass side rail and the smaller one (5/16") goes to the regulator.

Orr89RocZ · 07-04-2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by formula_novice

Thanks for the advice, guys!

I took out the spark plugs and turned the crank just a little bit. Then the dist fell right in!

I've never had that problem before, but I guess there's a first time for everything

Dumb HSR noob question: If you are facing the engine, is it the hard fuel line closest to the firewall that goes to the rear pass side of the HSR? Or does that one go to the regulator?

Good deal, no matter how many times i take my distributor out, it never seems to go back in real easy so dont feel bad haha.

Yes to what Zepher said. Small is return and goes to regulator. Big is supply and goes to passenger rail if thats how you have your rails setup which is the most common way of doing things

formula_novice · 07-06-2009, 05:36 PM

Thanks guys!

I'm working on routing my fuel lines and, so far, everything is going ok

Next I need to figure out where/how I'm going to mount my external coil...

I ordered the fluid filled Summit pressure guage everyone recommended. Can that stay mounted on the rails or should it come off after I adjust the pressure?

Thanks again for all the help! Much appreciated!

Orr89RocZ · 07-06-2009, 06:10 PM

The guage with adapter fitting (90 degree) should stay on rails.

Cool, you can thread the coil to the firewall overhang/lip. Just drill a small hole in the firewall lip and put the bracket there

Burnout91 · 07-06-2009, 06:14 PM

As for mounting the external coil, I trimmed off the "lug" on the rear, right-hand side of the intake base and installed the coil mount bracket in the stock location, picking up the two aft intake-to-cylinder head bolts.

formula_novice · 07-06-2009, 07:53 PM

Thanks for the help again guys!

I finished cutting and running the fuel lines today. Other than buying a push-on air breather for the valve cover, I think I'm at a stand-still until my remaining parts arrive on Wed.

Since I have some down time, I might paint some black stripes between the plenum fins to pretty it up a bit.

Attached is a pic of where I'm at right now... I don't know about everyone else, but this car guy loves engine pics

Thanks again!

Zepher · 07-06-2009, 10:07 PM

I had that thermostat housing and that blue felpro gasket and they leaked.
I ended up going with a cast TBI one (used screw-in plugs to seal the sensor holes) with that blue felpro gasket.

I mounted my coil to the cowl,

Zepher · 07-07-2009, 01:13 AM

My engine and lines,

Zepher · 07-07-2009, 01:16 AM

my friends 86 Camaro 355 engine and lines,

Zepher · 07-07-2009, 02:10 AM

another friends 87 Camaro 355 engine and lines,

formula_novice · 07-07-2009, 07:45 PM

Awesome!!! Thanks for the pics, Zepher!

While I'm waiting on the last few parts, I decided to go ahead and paint some stripes on my plenum... they kind of go with the stripes on my valve covers.

Here are the before & after mocked plenum install pics...

Thanks again!

formula_novice · 07-08-2009, 10:04 PM

Hi Guys,
Made some progress tonight but ran into a problem... the throttle linkage assembly on the side of the throttle body is hitting the fuel rail. I thought about grinding the linkage assembly down a little but wasn't sure if there was a better alternative. How did you guys fix this?

Thanks!

scamaro355 · 07-08-2009, 10:35 PM

im thinking i just bent mine out a little bit

Orr89RocZ · 07-08-2009, 10:37 PM

grind it down. works fine that way.