Forget about the fact that the miniram is expensive...when I look at the modified HSR it is just as expensive. I don't want to cut my hood or cowl on my Firebird Formula to fit a standard size HSR either...I am the second owner and the car is "cherry" with only 40K original miles on it...I still have the original tires on the car...bought it and stored it when it had 25K miles on it...and it was owned by an older man who didn't hash it. However I do know that I want more (way more performance) out of it. Having owned an 87 IROC back in the late 80s and early 90s I know that when I took the cat off that my mpg went up to 26 mpg hwy. This car gets about 19-20 mpg. So it is painfully obvious that the car is choked off at both the intake and exhaust side of things. But back to intake performance I want to put the best performing intake on the car....having had many different cars...I don't care about a bunch of useless tq down low. I see these threads with everybody talking about making a bunch of tq down low.....too me mid-upper rpm performance is more important. Which intake is available to replace the stock TPI intake that is really the best....cost not the controlling factor. From what I can see it looks like Miniram HSR (modified)...remember I don't want to hack my hood. Single Plane I was thinking a miniram with headers would be a good start then when I get board to put on a intercooled Supercharger...but only if I can get the Twin IC setup.

Thankfully I posted this on the CF as well. lol.

Well if cost isn't a factor, I'm pretty sure this would work


But seriously the miniram is your best bet for everything fitting right and still appearing somewhat "stock"

Your setup is what I spec'd for mine. I know Tony Mamo at AFR and called him and he suggested to me the 195s angle cut to bump the CR up to about 10.5:1, a miniram, good cam (22x/22x 550+ lift). Why dont people use 1.6 rockers on these cars???

BTW those are awesome intakes....do you think it would fit under a Firebird Formula hood? LOL.

Thanks

Miniram is a nice intake. 22x/22x is a small cam, but still should be ok with the miniram. A cc-306 or similar grind (with faster ramps), 10.5:1, miniram, afr 195s and good exhaust is 11 seconds all day.

I'd be cautious of what you read on Corvette Forum. Any "expert" who starts a post off with "my mechanic said" should be avoided. (99.9995% of corvette owners)

-- Joe

Dude I have been on the Corvetteforum for almost 10 years and I think permanently banned twice for arguing with numb-nuts who don't turn their own wrenches and/or are/were simply cheerleading for their favorite vendors because they spent money with them. I alway's found it laughable but yet sad when their favorite vendor ended up screwing them.

I have been using a CC XER 224/224 114 lsa with my LS6 FI setup for 7 years now. But when it was NA I had a large (for a 346cid) in it..so I get what you are saying.

I don't see as many people using 1.6 RRs on there SBC TPI (or alternate) setups...why is this?

I basically forgot about TPI when I left my 5.7 IROC back in the early 90s...and there was hardly anything performance wise available for them. So now I am having to relearn and spec out the performance options available....at least there are some available now.

I have paid attention to your threads and builds and also some of the more knowlegable folks on this board for information on upgrading the TPI in my Bird.

I have you and Orrz on my list of contact people when it comes to asking TPI L98 questions..even though you disagree on things sometimes....I guess I am just a fan of LT headers. lol.

Anyway....because you are FI do you feel like the single plane works better then the Miniram...just wondering why you switched from the MR for a single plane setup? I contemplated switching to a single plane setup after seeing pic's of yours...and someday I will probably put a supercharger on the car too.


Knowing how these two bolt main SBC perform..I know it will not be very long before something stupic happens....my crankshaft actually broke on my IROC...I put 2 motors in that car...was racing it pretty hard back in the early 90's but still getting beat by Buick GNs and Mustang 5.0 LX notchbacks back then....all because the TPI would not let the good old 350 breath up top...that's why I don't give a rat's *** when I see people talking about how much tq they can make on a setup that dies after 4K rpms...it's useless unless wanting to tow a boat or trailer..then it's great.

Agreed.

Because they read books from guys who say to choose a cam with the most lift, so they run 1.5 rockers. Since we can fix lift with rockers, I think the more important specs are duration and centerlines, and how fast the ramps are. (cams that get to .050" lift quicker). So given, a cam with .500 lift and faster ramps or a cam with lazy ramps and .540 lift, I'll take the .500 lift cam and toss a set of 1.6 rockers and get .533 lift.

But people do different things.

Lot of options. You can make good power on a street car with EFI.

His tech is solid. The LT header thing is overstressed. None of us have enough money to have special headers designed that are tuned exactly to our cam profile, so the length is far less important than the DIAMETER. Given the option, I'd obviously run LTs with 1 3/4" primaries, but if packaging is of concern I'd rather get the larger tubes than longer.


Actually, my 412 is carburated, but that is because the camshaft is 106* and EFI wouldn't run it, and I couldn't justify the cost trying.

You know. I'm torn. I think the singleplane has more potential, and I think for a supercharged application you get much better even cylinder filling. Naturally aspirated with a 224+ degree camshaft, the miniram is fine too. When you consider the miniram has a slightly longer runner than an LT1 intake, but higher flow potential it seems to be the ideal EFI street manifold.

Guys like Traxion and Matt here have had no issues hitting 11s with the miniram. My corvette ran just peachy with the miniram and with the singleplane manifold, both had strengths and weaknesses.

Honestly, the electronics are the limiting factor. You can only go so crazy camshaft wise with a '730 ECM. The MAF ECM's are way more forgiving, but then you run out of ability of measurement on higher airflow. Given the choice, I think the guys retrofiting the Vortec ECM's are the smart ones. 245* and larger camshafts on crazy lobe separations is possible with a good quality MAF.

two reasons:

1) I felt with forced induction, a horizontal draw manifold will always result in uneven cylinder filling
2) I had way too many 90* bends in the intake tract due to blower position, which was leading to pressure drop.

In a naturally aspirated motor I don't think any difference would have been noticed really. On an 800hp drag car, the singleplane would have the edge. But NOT the 1205 singleplane I was using.


People are silly. Every performance motor I have built has made twice the amount of torque than any stock L98, so wtf is this TPI torque argument about? People are idiots, really. They will argue stupid things all night and the only conclusion I can come to is because they don't have the money to do it right, so they need to justify using crap.

If we all had 20k budgets, would we really be debating which heads and intakes to use? I think not. Every motor I'd build would be a dart 4.155 bore with 4" stroke cranks, SRP pistons, afr 210 heads, custom sheet metal efi intake, and a massflo EFI management package. But you know, I don't have that kind of money. I have a mortgage, and bills like everyone else.

-- Joe

Agreed with everything you stated. I promised my wife I wouldn't go crazy again like I did on my C5. But I do have some room to manuever with some regular mods (non FI) like Heads and Cam.

This is my following spec build...let me know what you think???

AFR 195 heads (angle cut to bump CR up)
Dyno Don or LT headers...probably Dynodons...I just hate that he only accepts money orders.
Miniram(?) most likely for fitment and performance
Cam...Comp XER of some sort...what do you recommend for a medium/agressive cam? (will use 1.6 RRs)
2900 stall converter.

Thanks.

Sounds like you're on the right track. The miniram was THE best purchase I've ever made (thanks Joe!). I think the cam I got for mine was absolutely perfect for my setup and I wouldn't change a thing. You definately want 1 3/4 longtubes. Is this just going to be a fun street car that just sees the track occasionally? Should be a blast to drive!

I did a lot of racing back in the 80s and 90s I really don't have the time and energy to put into it the right way anymore...teching...tires..brakes...motors..etc. There are a lot of people that occasionallay take their cars to the track..but I started racing as a little kid BMX, then went to Motocross, then cars...then street bikes..back to cars..etc. It takes a lot of time, money, and energy to do it right...at least IMO.

I have been criticized a lot when I have just posted up dyno numbers and for not tracking my current TT Z06..but the reality is I have been there, done that, and for many of these guys (not all) that like to criticize...it is simple that they finally got a fast car (later in life) and a chance to figure out some of the excitement from the track...so the first place they will go to is...what are the track times...for which I don't have any desire to take my car(s) to the track anymore...but I do enjoy seeing other people's results and acknowledge them.

That being said I still like high performance street setups...because I am still a driver and enjoy accelleration and the ability to pass vehicles quickly as I don't commute on a freeway but on a two lane country road...which means there are only so many opportunties to pass and you have to do it quickly.

So to answer your question "yes" mainly for the street...and who knows maybe a couple of trips to the strip if my teenager is wanting to see what it is like..I gave him my Camaro..so he is kind of getting the feel of it...well I am assuming he is because I just had to go to the Probation Dept. to discuss his exhibition of speed ticket....ticket says he was only doing 20 mph...luckily the probation office had a 67' Cougar when he was a teenager and understands exactly what happened.

So yeah if you have a cam in mind I am all ears. I don't want to re-event the wheel if people have experience with cam swaps or which cam works really well with the MR and a Speed Density ECM setup...then I am all ears.

Here is a pretty lengthy thread on my cam http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/al...-cam-help.html (Miniram cam help) Your combo is so similar to mine that I think something like that would be great. Maybe just a bit less duration for a little more midrange since yours is a street car. BTW that advanced induction cam is on an extremely small base circle. You def need to check your pushrod geometry. Mine was spot on though with stock pushrods and 1.6's.

I am subscibing to both threads thanks. So you went with 4:10 gears with your Auto...that must launch out of the hole big time.

Well its got 28" tires on it so its about the same as 3.73's with a 26". But yeah, it rips out of the hole

LS6 intake, hands down.

Hey man you said cost was not a show-stopper!

Yeah, I've checked into that Massflo efi system, and it looks frickin' sweet.

First off, I am not trying to advertise this thing. I do not own Massflo, nor do I sell car parts. I'm just trying to help anyone out who wants a good EFI/intake system. Going back to the original thread starter question, I think the Massflo is the best intake/efi system. It's preset for a broad range of mods that most guys do to their engines. I found some information about it and also talked to the owner of Massflo. I think this is interesting information because I've been researching why the Massflo EFI does not require tuning, even though it's a MAF system. I figured out why the Massflo MAF doesn't require tuning and why this EFI system is definitely for a guy like me. First of all the MAF is programmed to work the same, no matter the intake air temperatures, whether the air is cooler or warmer, it doesn't matter. Next, the guys at Massflo include a tweaked factory ecm that you hook into your system (along with their ecm and electrical hookups and sensors) for our cars so it doesn't care what mods you do to the engine and will run smoothly. You just get a MAF from them for two different groups of injectors--18 to 30 lb or 32 to 42+ lb, something like that, and you tell them your engine's displacement and horsepower estimate, and you're done. You're supposed to be able to build your engine, install the efi system, set the timing, and start your car and drive it, and it runs optimally, on its own. The only time you have to send the MAF to them for programmng is if you change to forced induction or do something huge that would require way bigger injectors. You don't have to tune the crap out of it with laptops, chips, etc. Seems very cool and well worth the money, since it's the same price as most speed density systems that require tuning and tweaking by the user.

New2Chevy, you sure talk a lot about this. Why don't you buy it?

Except that "speed density systems" (and MAF systems, for that matter) came stock on a lot of thirdgens. People on these boards are very good at making factory or near-factory computer hardware work with some pretty radical setups.

He he he....I AM buying it. It sounds awesome because it's easier than dyno tuning and backyard tuning. I have no doubt that a lot of guys on here can tune with other systems and that they are very good at what they do. I am more of a mechanical/engine building guy. Tuning is not fun for me, and I don't want to invest the time in learning all the tuning tricks. I'll let everyone know what kind of power I put down with the Massflo. I'm excited to try it out. Anything having to do with our Camaros is exciting. A guy's gotta enjoy SOMETHING in life, right?

It seems a lot of times a guy asks a question, then he gets a bunch of answers from different guys, then he's back to where he started, saying, "OK, now WHICH one do I get?" ha ha ha

Wow I cant believe i didnt see this thread?

Anyway, I'd go miniram over modded HSR just because i dont feel that paying that much for a modded HSR is worth it when compared to the miniram. If you didnt mind triming hood and such and if the regular Holley HSR did actually clear enough i'd recommend the hsr for its cost savings. But like i said, both are somewhat within ball park pricing.

Performance wise i think both are close with miniram havin higher rpm range edge. I know alot of miniram combos are kicking some rear out there. My HSR did well but I wonder what it would have done with miniram/singleplane.

Single plan would be nice if you get a custom elbow fabbed that will clear hood and waterneck. I have a single plane for my twin turbo build just because of air flow distribution. From alot of people I talked to the front fed intakes have distribution problems and being that I planned on using batch fire efi which does not have injector offsets for the rear cylinders, i wanted/needed best air distribution i could get.

HSR i have had rich rear cylinders on a n/a motor. Do not know if it was strictly low air speed situations or if it was doing the same at WOT. Last few trips in that car before tear down were mostly low rpm soft throttle cruises with very rich air fuel ratio for those low loads. So i'm not sure what the case was but others have confirmed the same thing.
I am thinking it was a idle issue due to the fuel concentrations on the rear runners/plenum wall after many nitrous passes. It seemed that the rear of the intake had most deposits/coating of fuel mixture than the fronts and nitrous only sprays at WOT. Makes sense to me as the WOT air stream is fast moving and very hard to bend that air stream to the front 4 cylinders where the first part of the tunnel ram is for the HSR.

But with single plane and elbow if using a setup like that (not a MPFI carb style TB with carb air cleaner) the air comes in front but then moves straight down into the center plenum for all cylinders to feed from. They make good power as they are just converted carb intakes. Victor EFI is advertised at 4500-8500 rpm range so may give up alot of low speed driveability with it due to low air velocity. But then again EFI car so proper fuel injection at the runners will still give good driveability as carb relies on fuel mixing with air turbulence/air speed at the plenum.

I dont think you can go wrong with any of the 3 intakes you mentioned. Single plane with elbow MAY beable to be done cheaper than converted HSR. Miniram is like 1200 these days? modded HSR is like 800? Single plane with rails is 420 plus 200 for custom elbow. Could maybe use edelbrock cast elbow for 130 or so, so it comes out cheaper to do Victor EFI. Can pick up stock LS1 TB and sensors for 50-100 bucks. Just splices into stock wiring.

220's duration cam is good fit with either intake on decent heads and 350 inches. GTA Matt's setup is something I realllly like and I'm glad he tried the AI cam. I always wanted to try that cam. Every car I've seen with that setup has gone very fast. LT1 camaro at my track doing high 11's at 116 with AI Heads and that AI 226/234 cam. Not a super light car either


I like longtubes but the hassles of ground clearance for the ypipe is something I dont want to have again. Cali TPI guys using Dyno Don setups are making sick power and staying smog legal. Theres no reason you cant make power with his shorties. Definately get those

I don't know of anyone who's been unhappy with their afr/miniram combo. I continue to be impressed with what mine is doing. I'm at the track almost 24/7 and I see alot of what works and what doesn't work. I see cars with alot of compression, alot of cubes, alot of camshaft, etc., that my little 350 could beat up on. My buddy has a 69 camaro with a 406, dart heads, single plane, 240 cam, that runs just a few hundreths faster then me but I have 3 mph on. Another buddy has a notch mustang with a chevy 383. I know its gotta only weigh 2900 and I'm 2 tenths faster.

BTW my AI cam will be up for sale soon. Finally getting started on my engine build. Got a 1 piece block, putting a GM 3.875 crank in, my afr's and a 240 solid roller, at least 12 to 13:1 compression on E85. Switching current motor over to E85 now. I want to figure all the tuning out before the new motor goes in.

wow that motor will be pretty stout.

justin89formy I believe has a miniram/afr 195 setup using a lloyd elliot grind in the 223/230 range. Also running very strong. Believe it made 370whp?

Good stuff.