Alternative Port EFI IntakesThis board is for tech discussions and questions about aftermarket port EFI such as the HSR, MR, SR, BBK, FIRST, etc.
Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!
I know theres probably some information in the posts but I haven't found it. This system is not often talked about, maybe others would be interested as well.
Does anyone have any experience with this setup? Any dyno sheets? Any information would be helpful, I am personally one of those want it to look near original if possible.
These runners appear to be a little shorter, if so torque would still be awesome but the powerband would shift a little north on the Tach. http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/products.htm
This ad is not displayed to registered members. Register your free account today and become a member on ThirdGen!
Sponsored Links
Registered users do not see this ad. Click here to register for free!
I also Found this Posted by BadSS on the camaro forum. So there has to be something here.
"JerryWho over at thirdgen.org flowed the FIRST base at 301cfm through one of the weakest runners. He even went back to the bench to make sure that number was right. That's about 25 cfm more than an extrude honed Edelbrock/SuperRam base that was tested on the same bench. Out of the box it has a cross-sectional area of around 2.05",, but you can open the cross-sectional area of the thing up to 2.68" throughout the entire length of the base (which is too large for most applications) and the runners can be ported to a huge 1.9" INSIDE diameter. It'll also seal up on a set of heads opened up to a 1207 Felpro intake gasket - even though stock it curves down to a stock sized port exit. The head to intake transition is MUCH better than the stock TPI and stock based aftermarket TPI intakes. IMHO,,, it's the stuff as far as long tube runner systems are concerned.
I dynoed 330rwhp with a 355 StealthRam, ran mid-12's in the heat, shifting at 6400/6200 rpm. I swapped to a box stock FIRST and ran near identical times in near identical track conditions,, but did it shifting at 5800/5600. Definitely went down in peak HP,, but the midrange torque boost made up for it. It was a lot more fun to drive around town with the FIRST. Never the less,,, I have little doubt with minor porting on the FIRST,,, it would have make a few more horses at a couple hundred more RPM (over the box stock FIRST) and been quicker than the StealthRam in my particular application."
Some more info from BadSS, I apologize he is on the Corvette Forum.
"Here are a few more comparison pictures. Easy to tell if you know what you're looking at why this FIRST flows so well compared to any other long tube runner set up available.
The runner entrance on the FIRST has not been "gasket matched" to the runners yet and are basically as cast 1.85" openings - still a huge difference compared to the stock's 1.47 - 1.52 entrance.
Notice in the second picture how the runners are raised and make a much nicer transition to the heads. The first pic is a comparison of the plenums - Unported FIRST to stock TPI. The FIRST is wide open on the inside and the exits to the runners have a nice wide radius as cast.
The second pic shows a "gasket matched FIRST runner on the far left, stock TPI runner in the middle, and a fully ported (rough cut) FIRST runner on the far right.
The first picture shows the rough cut ported FIRST base I'm using on the Monte on top of a stock FIRST intake. Material was welded up at the intake flange to match the intake to the heads I'll be running which are CNC ported Dart 220s standard 23-degree heads that have been off-set ported (semi-raised) and opened to the equivelent of a 1207 Felpro gasket. The stock FIRST is sized to a set of stock heads, but believe it or not can be gasket matched to a 1207 Felpro in its standard location.
The bottom picture is the fully ported (rough cut) FIRST and shows how wide open you can get the transition point - pictures don't do this thing justice,,, it looks more like an oval port big block intake than a small block TPI system.
And finally,,, this is how it all looked tied together on the IROC. The FIRST comes with a 73mm Mono-blade throttle body that flows around 830cfm,,, which is about the same as a typical (dual) 52mm TPI. Note the EGR block off at the back of the plenum. The intake has no CARB exemption, but it looks relatively stock. I don't think anyone would have any trouble passing this thing off as "just a little ole TPI" to 95% of the folks out there."
I can confirm the flow numbers as that was on the intake manifold only with no runners or plenum attached. I can say there is a lot of potential with the First Intake System. The runners is the area that would have to be dealt with for real high performance.
Hmmm. I'm no expert, but this manifold seems too pricey, for what you get, when you can get a Holley stealth ram, lose very little torque, and vastly improve your top end performance, for way less money. The larger runners don't do much more for larger engines because they are still too long and limit rpm height. Stealth ram or mini ram are the way to go, especially when you increase your cubes.
Hmmm. I'm no expert, but this manifold seems too pricey, for what you get, when you can get a Holley stealth ram, lose very little torque, and vastly improve your top end performance, for way less money. The larger runners don't do much more for larger engines because they are still too long and limit rpm height. Stealth ram or mini ram are the way to go, especially when you increase your cubes.
If you’re planning on buying a larger throttle-body, the price difference between a StealthRam and FIRST is not much, especially on the 85/86 F-bodies, G-bodies, and Vettes that can run their large cap HEI distributors with the FIRST.
Those that say they noticed little to no torque difference between swapping out a stock TPI to a StealthRam on a relatively stock engine,, I have to question if something was wrong with the TPI (vacuum leak, overlapped runners, tuning,, something). On a moderately built 350, like my IROC, best estimate,, there was about 40 - 45lb of torque difference in the 3000 – 3800 rpm range. There was a very noticeable difference in launch technique, midrange pull, and part throttle acceleration between the HSR and the FIRST. In fact, the difference was more notable in the midrange than the top end. I originally thought the FIRST was goimg to shift around 6200 rpm (only a couple hundred less than the HSR),,, but it was making so much torque around the shift recovery point that the ETs showed it wanted to be shifted at 5800/5600 to take advantage of it. Now,,, I'm not saying the FIRST can hang with the HSR past 6000 rpm,,, it wont'!! I had second gear stick on me while I was racing at the track. To keep from loosing,,, I stayed in it and crossed the line past 7,000 rpm with the HSR and it never laid down.
While the StealthRam will definitely put out more HP at a higher RPM than the FIRST, depending on whether the rest of the engine/vehicle combination is geared and stalled to take advantage of it, there might not be much if any difference in ¼ mile ET (as in my case,,, moderate heads, smallish cam, 3.23 gears, and 3,000 stall).
The length of the runners will no doubt limit RPM capability, but the larger diameter will allow the larger engines to reach that RPM – unlike a stock TPI that starts choking them off around 4500 rpm. The FIRST can be ported large enough and notched (semi-siamesed,,, similar to a set of stock SLPs) to make peak HP around 5800 rpm (shifting around 6200) on a fairly wild 406. No way can you do that with any other TPI based intake without serious modification and welding.
The FIRST is not for everyone. If you’re looking for internet HP bragging rights or you want a full out quarter-mile car,, you’ll want something like the StealthRam or better yet a converted single plane, steep gearing, and a high speed stall converter. If you want something fun to drive and don’t want to run a lot of gear or stall speed,, then the FIRST MIGHT be the better choice. There’s not a perfect,, fit all,, fixed length intake – what works for YOU will depend on what YOU are looking for.
I plan on getting one for my 350 build up as I want to keep a stock look too. The FIRST intake will perform as the car was designed with a midrange rpm torque bias. Plus I think it will rock for a street driver that sees some track time. If I recall correctly, the stock runner length is around 21" where the FIRST is 17". That is why the rpm powerband increases some as BadSS mentioned. The 5,600-5,800 shift range is more in line with a small block chevy instead of the 6,000+ plus with other intakes. People on this board who have FIRST with good heads, cam and tune are making around 370 RWHP. While not near the 400+ of the other intakes, the FIRST is no slouch. I'm just glad there are a lot of intake options for us no matter which way we want to go You can search this forum for posts by BadSS. A lot of good posts related to FIRST will come up - this is how I found the most info as search engine exlcudes the word "first".
Suppose one were to siamese the runners on the First? Say shorten them up 4 inches? Might that raise the horsepower output and raise the rpm level?
Oh yeah,, you know it. The problem is with the creases in the runner casting to give you the 8 distinct runners look,,, you can't do a full on siamese port (flattening out the runner floor) without welding up at the least the inside crease.
That's what I've been planning for the past three years, lol. Too many other projects seem to pop up and keep bumping this one down every time it starts to get back to the surface. Plus,,, no one around here wants to weld on the runners,, since they're afraid it will warp them. However, Ken at FIRST did say he would check and cut and weld if needed to fit their runner jig,,, so I have no one to blame except myself.
There is enough material to do a notch like the SLPs have stock,, and that should help raise the RPM shift point a little (not like a full siamese though). The "problem" with the FIRST is that you can port the intake and runners too large for some milder combinations. Out of the box (or mild gasket match porting) would work just fine for a large percentage of builds,, at least for those similar and lesser than my old IROC.
We have an excellent local welder that I think is up to the task. He has been welding our stuff with no problems. If you want to ship them out here I can get it done. Ken would also be a good source as he can re-surface them if need be.
I think it would be an interesting experiment and also open up the diameter of the runners at the same time. I think that would be a great all around intake system. Plenty of torque, horsepower with a great dyno curve.
PS: he has welded up the SLP's and Super Ram runners for us with no warpage problems.
You can search this forum for posts by BadSS. A lot of good posts related to FIRST will come up.
Yep,, I feel like the FIRST poster boy. Not that I mind passing on the info,, I just feel like people think I work for FIRST or have stock in the company or something. I keep hoping others that bought these FIRST intakes from the recent group buy will start chiming in so I can retire. LOL
We have an excellent local welder that I think is up to the task. He has been welding our stuff with no problems. If you want to ship them out here I can get it done. Ken would also be a good source as he can re-surface them if need be.
I think it would be an interesting experiment and also open up the diameter of the runners at the same time. I think that would be a great all around intake system. Plenty of torque, horsepower with a great dyno curve.
PS: he has welded up the SLP's and Super Ram runners for us with no warpage problems.
Thanks Allen, I'll take you up on that offer and PM or e-mail you tomorrow for the shipping info. I believe with near certainty I can squeeze 580 plus HP between 5800 - 6000 rpm and 600 lb/ft or better around 4000rpm from a fully ported FIRST with the heads I have,, big solid roller,,, big headers,, and big dual exhaust on a flat-top pump-gas 408. That is,,, IF I can get these runners welded up and cut the divider back.
the stealth ram doesnt have to shift at 6000+ rpm all the time, my HSR 383 with patriot 195 aluminum heads, comp cams XFI280, 1.6rr, 58mm TB, etc will make peak power at about 5500rpm, i could shift to 6K and it prob wont fall off but no real need to. im gona be running a 700r4 and 3.55s in my ford 8.8.
TPIs are fun on the street but theres so much unusable tq in the lower ranges that getting traction on a stock TPI350 is hard. HSR will allow u to get off the line with more throttle and not smoke the tires as fast. not to mention racing against a LS1 our LT1 will ruin your day in the top end. you can fix the lower RPM tq loss with the HSR but simply adding more cubes
First is a great intake, fixes all the probs with the stock TPI and looks like it, its basically a direct bolt on and great for sleepers for ppl who dont kno what to look for. but the HSR can be emissions legal as well, they sell a EGR kit for it, i believe its the minirams and it bolts on to the HSR.
I too am interested in the FIRST intake. I’m just not sure if it is the best intake for my combo. I am planning on putting it in a 91 vette with a 355, AFR 190, ZF6 and 3.45 gears. The cam will be chosen when I pick the intake but I know I don’t want to spin my engine past 5800. My concern is if the AFR 190 heads are too big for the FIRST.
Anyone out there using the FIRST with AFR 190 or larger heads?
I too am interested in the FIRST intake. I’m just not sure if it is the best intake for my combo. I am planning on putting it in a 91 vette with a 355, AFR 190, ZF6 and 3.45 gears. The cam will be chosen when I pick the intake but I know I don’t want to spin my engine past 5800. My concern is if the AFR 190 heads are too big for the FIRST.
Anyone out there using the FIRST with AFR 190 or larger heads?
Any dyno graphs?
Yes I have 220 Motown heads and would like to know also.
I have a friend here locally with a FIRST intake. In person that intake is a beast compared to the factory TPI. I makes great midrange torque, making his car a little more friendly drving around town than mine. We have similar setups however, mine is a little more aggressive with the head and cam selection thus giving me an advantage.
One thing I disliked was the lack of alternative throttle bodys. If it had a LS or even ford throttle body flange it would allow the use of larger diameter and overall less bulky throttle bodys. Still, it is still a great option for a much higher flowing intake than stock while still retaining the factory look.
__________________
Black 91 Z28 12.43@113 1.73 60ft
355-HSR-58mmHolley-Dart pro1 215cc-234/238 Cammotion bumpstick-JE pistons-6" rods-Hooker 2210's
A Shift Above stageV trans-Neal Chance 9.5 3400stall
All Tubular up front-All Spohn out back-Z06 binders & rollers-4th gen dash-Moates Ostrich-Free Mods...
I too am interested in the FIRST intake. I’m just not sure if it is the best intake for my combo. I am planning on putting it in a 91 vette with a 355, AFR 190, ZF6 and 3.45 gears. The cam will be chosen when I pick the intake but I know I don’t want to spin my engine past 5800. My concern is if the AFR 190 heads are too big for the FIRST.
Anyone out there using the FIRST with AFR 190 or larger heads?
Any dyno graphs?
I was hoping someone else would chime in,, there were a few guys that bought the FIRST in the group purchase running AFR 195 heads. It ran fine on my combination with 185cc heads. If you read above the ETs were similar to the HSR and shifted at 5800 with a 218/228 that was better suited for the HSR. The deal is with your six-speed, the shift recovery point will not drop like it does on an automatic,,, and I would expect that the HSR would ET better. However, even an itty iddy cam with the AFR heads and HSR on a 355 will want to shift at 6200 or higher. If you want to keep shifts low and have a tire shredding blast with that 6-speed, then the FIRST would meet those objectives
Someone else asked about the FIRST on 220 heads. I wouldn't run it out of the box,, but the base can be opened up to a 1207 gasket and ported to a 2.68" minimal cross-sectional area,, which is more than any 220cc head that I know of. I have no hard data, but I've run a number of simulations on a EA and EAPro. I know these programs to be extremely accurate from well over 10 years of expereince with them,, and I like what I see enough that I'm hogging out a FIRST to feed 242cc heads that flow 325cfm at cam lift.
After looking extensively at all the alternatives for my goals, I am going to go with an aftermarket LTR set-up or the FIRST. In a street car, I like having the torque down low with a fat mid-range. Thanks for the info and please keep adding!
i was at odds about either the first or the hsr. now i definately want the first. great torque and a fat mid range. my car is a daily driver so the drivability factor makes it better for me. might be a year or 2 but i see first in the future. thanks for all the great info.
__________________ L8TER,
Mikey
Check out my vBGarage for Details of BOTH cars!!!!!
I have looked around and cant seem to find much info on this intake and a mid sized cam like a 224-230, 54*lift 112cam. I am runnin a 212-218 cam now in my 355 with a ported SLP setup and stock heads but i have a 224-230 cam and im in the market for some AFR heads 180-195s. Im tryin to diside if i want to run a Superram or the First setup! Im runnin this in a fullsize 2wd truck and im lookin to make a quick fun to drive street truck. Anyone got any input or info on helping me make my choice? I might need to jump on this GP on the First setup but i need more info!
I have looked around and cant seem to find much info on this intake and a mid sized cam like a 224-230, 54*lift 112cam. I am runnin a 212-218 cam now in my 355 with a ported SLP setup and stock heads but i have a 224-230 cam and im in the market for some AFR heads 180-195s. Im tryin to diside if i want to run a Superram or the First setup! Im runnin this in a fullsize 2wd truck and im lookin to make a quick fun to drive street truck. Anyone got any input or info on helping me make my choice? I might need to jump on this GP on the First setup but i need more info!
If we're talking running the intakes out of the box on a 350/355 without anything more than maybe gasket matching, the SuperRam will make a little more HP up top and the FIRST will make a little more low/midrange. If the stall speed is low,, 2400 or less and you have 3.42 gears or less,,, then the FIRST would probably ET better. More stall and gear,, the SuperRam would probably ET better. The FIRST would probably seem a little peppier though. Really,, you can't go wrong with either intake for your application,, but at $850 for a new FIRST,, it would be hard for me to pass it up. Plus,,, if you plan on a larger engine later,, I think I'd go with the FIRST based on it's porting potential with no welding required.
im runnin a 700r4/Yank 2600 stall now with 3.73s and 26" tires but could run as big as 28-29" tires. Im guessin the reason the SR would make more HP is due to the bigger plenum size vs the FIRST? Isnt the FIRST goin to have bigger "wider" runners vs the SR out of the box?
The runner diameter and base diameter are larger on the FIRST, but the overall runner length is shorter on the SuperRam. The shorter runners will make more HP up top (when the extra diameter is not really "needed"),, but the extra diameter of the FIRST (and the porting potential) will allow maximum torque from larger engines and higher flowing heads.
__________________ 86 IROC - 9.8:1 - 355, TFS twisted wedge heads, 218/228-110, FIRST Injection's LTR TPI system with 73mm T/B, 24# SVO, 88 350 GM EPROM, 1 5/8" Headman headers, 3" Race Series Dynomax dual outlet muffler, TH350, TCI 10" 2800 stall, B&M Megashifter, stock 3.23s w/Auburn unit, 245/45ZR17s on 212 Eagles or 26x11.5 ET Streets for the track
You can search this forum for posts by BadSS. A lot of good posts related to FIRST will come up - this is how I found the most info as search engine exlcudes the word "first". 
Well said BadSS. Well said. 
Yes I have 220 Motown heads and would like to know also. 
