I put the engine together ten years ago in my 87 IROC and have always been a little disapointed in the performance of it. The engine consists of - zz4 short block, old school trick flow heads (crap valve springs still on them), CC .498 I, 509E, 218 / 220, SLP T-Ram intake, Crower 1.5 - 1 SS roller rockers, 1 3/4" SLP headers and cat back, Random Tech cat, rebuilt 700R4 with 2800 stall convertor, 56 mm Arizona Speed and Marine TB, stock LS1 injectors and stock 3.42 geared 10 bolt. There are alot of other supporting parts but these are the basics. I bought a set of AFR 195cc Eliminators this summer along with a set of custom made Cometic head gaskets that should raise the CR to about 9.8 to 1. I would like to install another cam and was thinking about something in the .560 lift range, 230+/- duration, and 113 LSA. The MAF is a stocker and I dont plan to make the swich to SD. Would love to get some input from you guys regarding camshafts. Any input will be appreciated. The goal would be to run in the bottom 12's and still have decent street manners. It isnt a dailey driver (9K miles in ten years) but dont want bad manners in traffic.

I ran 12.36s around 109mph with a similar set up and a StealthRam intake, 9.8:1 355, old style G1 TFS heads (good valve springs to match the cam), 218/228 - 110, .493/.507, 1 5/8" shorty headman, 3" Dynomax, 3.23 gears, 3000 stall. If you were off that mark by .15 or more (with slicks),, I'd really try and figure out what was "wrong" before moving on,, maybe you have already - the springs that came on those older TFS heads were junk!

Anyway, with the AFR 195s, 350, and your intake and exhaust,,, you're going to want as much lift as you're comfortable in running, but keep the duration in the 224/230 range on a 112 spread. That'll match the intake's power band better and let the MAF system "work" a little better (than a larger cam).

I have only had the car at the track a couple of times, best ET was 13.01 @ 104.? I know the ET could have been wittled down to high 12's with more runs and sticky tires but the MPH seemed off by about 5. It should have run close to what yours did.
I know the valve springs are shot, they are the stock TF's with a hard 9K on them. The engine only had 30 miles on it when the transmission went. On the way home from having the transmission rebuilt I matted it at 50MPH. The tranny downshifted into 1st gear, 7500 RPM. This happened a couple of times. I am sure that finished off the springs.

AFR claims that there springs are good for .600 lift and I am not opposed to getting close to it.

Do you think a 112 LSA and 230 duration cam will still be tunable and have decent street manners? The other thing to consider is that the short block is a stock ZZ4. The rod bolts will be the limiting factor for 6200+ RPMs?

Had to pull out the cam card for what it is in now, sucks to get old! Crane Cam HR 276-2S-12 IG, .488I, .509E, 214 and 222. GMHT magazine featured a GTA that had the same setup as mine back except for ported heads in the late 90's and the guy claimed he ran 12.20s @ 110 MPH with it.

It'll be tunable, but with the AFR heads and lifts in the .570 range it's not going to take much cam to hit 6400 rpm. I mean I was shifting the 350 StealthRam with the 218/228 -110 cam and heads not remotely close to the power and RPM potential of the AFR195s at 6400rpm. Just a swap to AFR heads and it would probably wanted to shift in the 6700 range. Based on the intake shoot-out dynos,,, it looks like the T-Ram would probably shift about 400 rpm less than the StealthRam. So,, I'd keep duration on the intake 218 - 224 and the exhaust 224 - 230 if you want to keep the shift point in the 6300 range with the T-Ram.

Yep,, I can believe 12.20s with a decent port job on the old TFS. Where did your TFS with the 214/222 - 112 shift? Around 5900? It should have if the springs would have let it.

I probly keep duration in the mid 220's and lift near .560-.570's. I'd recommend upgrade to AFR's better 8019 springs but the 8017's will be ok if you stay under 6200 rpm.

230 cam will want to spin over 6500. 220's will give you want you need. I shifted near 6800 with my 230/245 cam but it was on 109lsa and in a 383. No problems tuning with MAF.

I only made a couple of passe at the track with this settup. IMO in highndsite, the valve springs were shot. The first pass was the best, left in drive, shifted at 5600 RPM. Before the transmition blew up it put down 298 rwhp, but was running extremly lean and made the same HP at 5800 as it did at 6400. Then the next day the tranny grenaded. A couple of weeks later the tranny was rebuilt and the shift point problems occured. This wiped out the valve springs. Then I went to the track.

I would like to correct the tuning and hardware parts before stepping up, but I think it now is a mute point. I will install the FAR 195's and a larger cam and have a custom tune.

I trust your opinions and appreciate your input.

With what I have desribed as parameters, what would yo suggest for a cam?

With your 1.5 rockers, I’d get comp to cut me on a 112 spread, 108 intake centerline:
Intake – Lobe 3192 – 276/224/152 - .567 (1.5s)
Exhaust – Lobe 3194 – 282/230/157 - .584 (1.5s)

Anything smaller on the intake duration and you're going to start flatlining the top end,, just like you saw with the 214/222 cam.

Bad, I needed confirmation for what I was considering for a cam and you sealed the deal. I just need to find some one to tune it.

What kind of numbers do you think the cam you suggested will put out?

If the T-Ram flows like a superram, that combo should put down 340-350whp I would think. Thats a healthy cam and good heads. Thats good for low 12's all day

Orr, my current set up put down 300 RWHP, I hope that I get more than 30 - 50 RWHP with a .5 bump in CR, bigger cam, good valve springs, and better flowing heads and tune that works. The 300RWHP was with an A/F ratio over 15 to 1.

I rhave run my brothers 6 litre GTO in cool weather, on the low end we were dead even and pulled on the top end, with the wasted valve springs. In 40 degree warmer weather, he pulled 4 cars with my car pinging like a MF.

yeah you'll have an easy 40 hp in that setup with compression bump/cam and good heads with good springs and Much better tune.

All those things add up in the end.

I hope so, my brother has a .610 lift cam, LS3 heads and Kooks headers on the bench for his GTO. He doesnt think my IROC will be competition for his goat with both of our winter mods. Can you sense the brotherly love? My wallet does.

I ordered the cam per the specs you recomended. I am taking some heat from the local guys ( Cascade Crew) , I think this settup should put down about 375rwhp and 400 rw tourqe, they seem to think it will be considerably less. I know that the current settup / cam put down 300 rwhp and 360 rw tourqe with garbage valve springs and old school TF heads.

Any thoughts as to what this settup will put to the wheels properly tuned?

With the Eliminators and that cam, i'd be disappointed with less than 360whp thats for sure. Cam like that on heads like those is always a 360-380whp setup depending on the intake/tune/tranny/etc. That is if the Tram can really support 6000+ rpm, as that cam should peak somewhere up near 6000 or more

Your setup just needs abit more compression. 9.8 is good but mid 10's is much better which is hard to do with a ZZ4. Heads would need milled to 56-58cc

Pics from the last two days. Engine is out, cam should be on my doorstep Wednesday, car should be running by the end of the weekend. The big guy in the pics is my younger brother, the little man is my 6 YO son.

http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/m...0new%20settup/

The cam alone would be 20 horses over the old cam, the heads another 25 horses over the TFS with the 224/230 cam. I'm sure your tune was off and the springs were limiting power another 20 horses,,, or more. As Orr said,, it's a solid 360rwhp build for sure with the new AFR heads and the 224/230 cam,, assuming a good tune and the transmission isn't slipping.

You never mentioned a HP number before. If you were shooting for 375rwhp I'm afraid you might come up a little short. You can swap to 1.6" rocker arms and should pick up around 8RWHP,, just something to consider if it did dyno high 360s.

Regardless of the HP numbers (highly dependent on whether or not the dyno is properly calibrated or not), it should make very good power in the RPM range you wanted as well as run bottom 12s,, which is what you originally said you wanted. Honestly,, I don't hold much merit in the dynos,, other than for tuning purposes,, get it to the track and let her rip before you worry to much about what it did or didn't do on the dyno.

Edit - I just checked out the post where some of the Cascade Crew were giving you a hard time about the cam being small and slow. One dude was referencing a solid flat tappet 276/262 241/249 .520/.540 cam. The "advertised" durations are measured at .020" lift on the solid so that's always going to be agressive looking when you're only moving from .020 to .050". Your cam from .050 to .200 moves from 224 to 152 degrees,, his might move to from 241 to 154 degrees (1.5 rockers). Ask him who's ramps are slower now. Interestingly enough,, I ran a Lunati 239/249 flat tappet custom ground on a 110 spread with similar specs to his (back in 1987 in a flat-top 408) and I've installed the 224/230 hydraulic roller cam in a similar engine (10 years later). The hydralic roller ran similar ETs, the response and power were similar. It seemed like the 224/230 cam was a little peppier under 3000 and over 5000rpm,, but the solid lift might have been a little peppier between 3000 and 5000. The shift points were similar as well,, but the engines were not using the exact same heads,, which has a lot to do with how peppy an engine is,, but their volume and flow rates were similar. Regardless,, very similar engines,,, very similar results with the main difference being the hydraulic pulled more vacuum at a lower rpm - 12" (around 800rpm) vs 16" (at 650rpm). I'm not knocking his cam or choice. It's a very good flat-tappet solid that can give similar power levels to a serious hydraulic roller,, but a comparison between advertised and .050 lift is like comparing apples and oranges.

Oh,,, the lobe spread and split duration was recommended because of your exhaust system. If it was a dual cat-free exhaust I'd recommended something different.

Thanks for the explination Badd, I dont know alot about cams, but the specs you and Orr mentioned seemed in line with what I was thinking.

I will be happy with low 12's and 110 mph. Much more than that will not be realistic with the exhaust and intake that are on the car now.

Maybe the HSR that is destined for my wifes car would perform better? Set it on the engine today,

HSR versus SLP T-Ram http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/m...DAVE/?newest=1

I still think the T-Ram looks bad ***, HSR, eh, OK.

Long story short, the cam arived Tuesday 1/12/10, 2 weeks later than what I was told and needed a signature. GRRR, I asked them to make sure it could be delivered without a sig.

If all goes well the cam should be in, degreed, heads on and pushrods ordered by the end of this weekend.

cant wait to see how this thing performs! always been interested in the T-ram. Never seen one forsale tho

You dont see any for sale on this site. I have seen one in person not counting mine, and met a guy on this site in Boston with one. The one I saw was installed on a white 89 GTA, the owner was in the Navy and had no idea what he had. He bought the car on the east coast with the mods already installed.

Man, the last couple of weeks have been computer hell. The vid card on my wifes Dell cooked itself (fan plugged with her cats hair) and my hard drive grenading one day later, then Fing with a 5 year old laptop that hadnt been turned on in two years. Now things are starting to get back to normal. The heads are on and the cam is in. MLS head gaskets ( from Cometic) are a trip. 3 layers of steel, thats it, 200.00+ bucks. Hope they do the job and increase the CR to 10 ish to 1. The cam will be degreed Saturday, then pushrod lenght verified by Sunday.

By the way, Windows 7 is a PITA upgrade over XP, lots of driver problems, 150.00 sound card isnt capatible, still wont boot without the windows disck in the DVD drive, etc.

What does your wife drive that would use the Stealthram? Thirdgen? If so And what intake set-up did you decide to go with, if need be, I know you can sell that intake and buy another stealthram set-up and pocket a grand... haha

My wifes summer driver is a 1990 IROC convertible. The guy I bought it from had the engine rebuilt and claimed that he had " 400 CID parts put in it". The block is a late model SBC, so I am assuming he stroked a 350 to 383 CI. It feels like a larger engine until 3000 RPM, then lays down and the knock sensor yanks ALOT of timing. It still has 305 heads on it. The HSR is going on the convertible along with the Trick FLow heads after they get new valve springs.

I can pocket much more than a grand selling the T-Ram and replacing it with a 600.00 HSR settup

I paid 1400.00 for the T-Ram new, been offered 4X's as much over the years.

sell it then if you can get 4x that...thats a great gain!

I cant say the thought never crossed my mind, but I dont need to sell it and would like to make it work with the current settup. If it doesnt then I might reconsider.

Degreed the cam today, see below.

ICL - 107 measured, 108 specd

I duration @ .050 measured - 232 degrees, specd - 224 degrees.
I valve timing @ .050 - measured - open - 9 degrees BTDC, close - 43 degrees ABDC.
I valve timing @ .050 specd - open - 4 degrees BTDC, close 40 degrees ABDC
Total lift measured - 560, specd - .568

E duration @ .050 measured - 237 degrees, specd - 230 degrees.
E valve timing @ .050 - measured - open - 126 degrees , close - 30 degrees.
E valve timing @ .050 specd - open - 51 degrees BBDC, close -1 degrees ATDC
Total lift measured - 571, specd - .583

So, the ICL was within one degree of the spec, intake duration is larger by 8 degrees, starts 5 degrees sooner, and closes 3 degrees later. Total lift is less then specd by .008".
On the exhaust side, duration @ .050 lift is longer than speccd by 7 degrees. Total duration @ .050 lift is 237 degrees, specd is 230 degrees.

It's close to what I ordered, just confirms what I have heard regarding Comp Cams. They come with less lift and more duration than specd.

You sure those numbers are correct? Thats way offf spec, it shouldnt be that bad

That's specing out like the older Magnum hi-lift series (pre-Xtreme lobes) 3111 and 3122 lobes. Measure at .006 and see what durations you get. If that's like the 3111/3122 lobes (286/290) I'd send it back. I guess I've been lucky,, all the comps I've run have been within a couple degrees on durations and a few thousands on lift,, which I figured was well within the possibility of my measurement errors.

Not necessarily anything wrong with those lobes. Although not super steep, they still will make decent power but i agree, its not quite what you ordered so you should be entitled to another correct cam.

My old 383 cam was 286/306 with 230/245 and it revved to 6800 rpm with no float, making peak power in the 6200-6500 range. One nice thing about a lobe like that, is that it is not as hard on the springs so for higher rpms you have less valve float chances. Its much harder to control super aggressive high lift lobes, and spring life is shortened.

I think I may have made a mistake while degreeing the cam. I took all of the measurements from the valve spring retainer. With the 1.5 to 1 rockers this would through off the valve opening / closing events if the specs on the cam card are taken from the lifter / 1 to 1 side of the rocker.

yeah make sure the card states which reading is the one to use while degreeing in the cam, either at the lifter or at the valve.

You can do at the valve if the specs are at the lifter, just have to factor in the 1.5 rocker arm. .050 at the lifter is .075 at the valve.

It doesnt really say " hey dummy, duration needs to be measured at the lifter not at the valve spring becuase of the non 1 to 1 rocker ratio". But then again at the bottom of the cam card it does say - duration @ .050 - 224I and 230 exhaust. Then uder that it says - Lobe Lift - .379 I and .389 E.

OK, the NEXT time ( not like last time or the time before that) I do this, the cam will be degreed with the heads OFF.

I did learn another thing tonight the hardway, the AFR recomended FelPro 1205 intake gasket set doesnt have a hole in it for the EGR port. I pulled the tin peice off of the old 1256 set that was still stuck on the Trick Flows and cut a hole in the 1205's for it.

It should specify lifter or valve timing events. If not call comp cams

So, another thing I didnt do when it was the "right time to do it" was check valve-to-piston clearence. I have read that you need .100" running clearence, not sure if that is true? I stacked up feeler gauges to .108" and placed them ontop of the valve stem. Installed the roller rockers, adjusted the valves and rolled the engine over slowly. No sounds, sudden stop of the rocker etc, seems fine. Before doing this I primed the oil pump, had oil coming out of all of the pushrods, then ran the drill for another 5 minutes.

Is this method unreliable?

Should be fine with that cam. Best way is to do modeling clay on the valve releifs and measure the dent the valve puts on the clay.

Yea, I know. Need to remember this the next time I have it apart.

The header gaskets have alway been a PITA to install. I mocked up the headers and gaskets tonight. What I realized was that the spark plug location on the TF's is a lot different than the AFR's. The #3 and #5 spark plugs are impposible to change with the SLP headers installed with the AFR's, same as the stock heads. It's been 15 years since it had stock heads and headers.

I will either need to find a shortened 5/8 plug socket with a 3/4 wrench fitting ot really short plugs for these cylinders.

My brother is coming over Saturday to reinstall the engine, ope to have it running by Sunday.

The last decision is which injectors to use. I have a set of TPIS flow matched 24lb 89 Corvette set, 2002 LS1 take offs, or the 30lb SVO injectors my brother gave me for X-Mas. He bought them online from a guy with a 5.0 Mustang. I am leaning towrds the LS1 injectors.

I think LS1's would be the same or less fuel flow rating than the 24lb 89 vettes. LS1's are rated at 58psi compared to TPI 43 psi. I think LS1's are 26lb or 28 lb injectors so that means at 43 psi they would be closer to 22 or 24 lb injectors.

I'd go for the 30's for this setup to make sure the injectors dont go static. 24's are pretty good til about 350whp and that setup is capable of doing that and more

The only reason I question the SVO injectors is becuase they are used and dont know they guy that sold them to my brother. If they work properly they should be perfect for my settup, just dont like changing things I know work when changing other stuff like heads and cam.

The engine was dropped in today, hopefully it will be running Sunday night.

i'd run the 24 lb'rs off the vette and set your base pressure to 50-55 psi.

That was what I was leaning towards. I know it will be running lean but I wont be chasing my tail trying to figure out some other intermtitent problem when it fires up.

Latest update-
Engine is back in the car, exhaust is reconnected ( PITA, every slip fitting had to be loosened up and "adjusted" with a pipe wrench, floor jack, prybar, dead blow hammer etc. The lower intake manifold wouldnt seal with the heatriser bandaid, had to remove the intake and toss the tin escuteon, then reinstall the intake base.

Attempted to install the MSD Pro-Billet distributor tonight and wripped the bottom O-ring . %^*^&*^*)^*!.

Now I need to find a replacement o-ring.

Well it coughed to life tonight. My brother gave the video camera to my wife to film it, not sure what happened but it didnt record.

After running for a couple of minutes one of the SVO injectors started leaking badly. Torn O-Ring. It took 6 attempts to get the injectors to seal without wripping o-rings. I wound up reinstalling the Bosche 24lb injectors. Just finished reinstalling the upper plenum/cast in fuel rail. I put a fuel pressure gauge on it on it an hour ago and it is holding steady at 43 PSI.

The battery was dead, so when it started it sounded like crap and would not idle. After a couple of minutes it started to idel decently and sounded really good. The 1/2 point in compression is realy noticable and the lope is bigger.

Cant wait to fire it up Sunday and dial in the initial timing and fuel pressure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwMctOms80Y

It now has a large oil leak on the passengers side. The head is dry, must be coming from the china wall.

did you use motor oil on the o-rings to provide lubrication for instal,the T-RAM can be difficult when installing injectors....

Started out with vasoline, then went to 30W after the first couple of attemps.

theres your problem!
vasoline destroys rubber,never use vasoline on rubber you will have a kid!

another thing if you have some cash, instal an Ls1 pcm conversion so you can take advantage of a much better PCM the benefits are great....
www.eficonnection.com

I used vasoline on the o-rings ten years ago and didnt have a single leak do to using it.
The reason the 0-rings leak is becuase they were torn while installing the upper plenum. You basicly have to set the plenum onto the injectors, push the injectors partialy into the upper bosses, wigle the plenum at the same time and then apply pressure to the plenum. Before the plenum seats, turn every injector while applying light pressure to the top of the plenum. If an injector is hard to twist, pull the plenum up a little and start over. Also have to watch the gap between the front and rear intake runners, they need to be equal while you do all the wiggling of the plenum and twisting of the injectors.

I used to be pretty good at swapping injectors on the thing, but guess I lost the touch over the last couple of years.

On a side note, I have some of pics of the 3 different types of injectors layed out side by side with a framing square and speed square picture framing them to show the difference in lenght. This also come into play when dealing with a T-Ram since the fuel rail is cast into the upper plenum.

Sounds pretty good "untuned". Might be the sound from the video but check for vacuum leaks,, sounded like there might be a quite large one when you walked over on the passenger side (check your MAF connectors first),, maybe not,, just double check.

Also, until you get the custom tune, you might want to bump your timing up to 10-degrees and go back through the min idle control procedures. It should smooth that idle just a tad for the interim.

Keep us updated! KG

Badd,

That sound that the video picked is not an intake leak. It is a resonance sound from the air changing direction inside the upper intake.
I thought the same thing when I installed the intake 10 years ago and chased it for almost one year. If I placed my hand ontop of the plenum it goes away. Several starting fluid canisters sacraficed themselves proving this out.

It has always idled rough when started cold after the battery has been unplugged for more than a couple of days. I normally give it enough throttle input to keep it running until it goes into closed loop. The odd thing is that adding throttle input is usauly only necessary on initail start up. If the throttle is closed gently while in open loop it will idle. When it goes into closed loop it will idle lower, the timing retards, and it sounds really nasty.