Quote: Originally posted by hawksthirdgen Hey guys we sell a Ram Air kit almost just like that for 149.95 if anyof you guys are interested. Thanks,Bruce www.hawksthirdgenparts.com yeah your ****ing ripping people off. there's a guy who sells them on Ebay. for 50 bux! and he spray paints them black for you! find him on ebay. once i see him selling them again, i'll post a link for everyone. DITTO! why would someone want to pay $150.00 plus shipping to get the exact same thing boxes? I got the boxes for $30 and they wourk great. The guy has also put a patent on them so he cant be copied....he puts them on Ebay every now and then...

I've had my ram-air boxes for two years now. I just recently re-installed them. I will be making a few sets out of ABS plastic soon if anyone's interested. I'm sure that EBay guy's dimensions are slightly different than mine.

As far as Hawk's boxes, quit flaming the guy. If you don't want to pay that for his boxes, then don't buy them. Yes, I think his are too expensive, but thats what he want's to sell them for. If it's not what you want to pay, simple, don't buy them from him.

Mike

nobody flaming anyone!........just giving my opinion. flames get started when some takes it wrong and post about flamin....

Hey guys this is Bruce I am not taking it in a negative way,I know what I pay to have the boxes made which are alluminum and fully tig welded and install kit and instructions and i have my mark up just wanted to let the people out there know what I have to offer.
Thanks,BRuce

I respect what Bruce is saying....I would do the same thing. He said his were tig welded....which is a +++.....mine are just popped rivited together...I had to seal'em up......

Mine were tig welded as well, but I still ran a thin bead of clear silicone on the seams.

I'll be making the grill screens this weekend out of expanded aluminum mesh that I got from Lowe's.

Update:

Ok, I scrapped the Lowe's aluminum mesh idea and I found stainless steel Z06 screen mesh. I'll have pics soon!

you know thoes COLD AIR scoops wouldnt be a bad first fiberglass project.......


if i thought i could sell them for $150, i could use carbon fiber instead of fiberglass too..


CF doesnt hold heat like metal, and its lighter.... hmmm....

ABS plastic is a better material IMO. Lite, doesnt hold heat, and a little more flexible than fibergalss.

thats harder to work with though...

fiberglass COULD be just as light.... athough why would you want it to be flexable?

i would imagine that when in the face of 140mph wind, you want it to retain its shape..... fiberglass will.... ABS can, but it would be heavier..



either way, both are good materials to make them out of.


how were you planning to make the ABS ones? taking sheet plastic, cutting out the sides and bending the back across them?? how do you plan on attaching the pieces?

or are you going to make a mold for them?

no mold. too much $$$$

make the design and plastic weld the seems.

it will shold shape just fine but it will give slight flexibilty so you dont crack them while installing them.

cool... i donno how to plastic weld... i can MIG and stick weld(ick i hate stickwelds)

is it anything like that? or is it more like soldering?

i can make the carbonfiber or plastic anything from paper flexible to stiffer then steel... do they have to flex to be installed or what?

i was just thinking of making a smooth scoop, and on the backside have one or 2 ribs to keep it stiff... thoughts?

Yes, they have to be flexible to a degree to install. The stuff I can get is similar to the lower air filter housing plastic material (firm, yet still flexible).

They have to be flexible so you can fit the bottom opening of the boxes arround the factory fog light plastic air ducts (if that makes sense). It's a tight fit down there.

The welder you would need is something similar to this: click here

Sign me up guys, I'd love to buy one of these. If you are serious please message me with the details. Let me know!

Don't use expanded metal, go perforated!!!

OK, the expanded looks pretty good, but thinkof how it's made. slots are cut in the metal, then it's s t r e t c h e d to form the gaps. It can be made to look GREAT, but it's just never gonna look as good as perforated. The new GMC Denali grill is perforated metal. It's a sheet with holes drilled in it. It looks much nicer.

Here's some pics.

EXPANDED

PERFORATED

I would also like to purchase one of those. That setup you have looks completly bad ***. Although I think a plastic variant like you were saying would be better.

hey could you let me know where you got the z06 screens from? how much? pict? i think i would be interested in getting one of thease boxes.. would it work with keeping foglights??

-thanks

It's going to be a week or two longer before I can pick up another sheet of ABS plastic. My guy is out of stock at the moment. I dont have any prices yet, but trust me, they will be reasonable! (sorry for the wait guys, I've been EXTREMELY busy the last few months!)

The boxes will work while still reataining your fog lights.


However, if you install screens in front of them, like I did, the factory foglights would have to be relocated. (I just deleted mine). My factory foglights were in bad shape, so I took them off.

If I can get my buddy to swing out to my shop this weekend, I'll have him take some pics that I can post for ya.


The Z06 screen material is $$$$$$ , a little pricey. It's made from stainless steel mesh. Woven into tiny squares, not expanded!

Hopefully I'll have pics by next monday or sooner.

Mike (1bad91Z)

Setup looks good....

(speachless)

nevermind, found my answer buried in the thread.

What was your question?

just wanted to know what you did to fuse the two pieces of metal together but i finally found it you tig welded and covered the seam with an apoxy. I ask because i am building something very similar (yet completly different dont ask ill have pics when im done) and i have been wondering how im going to fuse the different pieces of metal together. I dont have easy access to a welder so i guess ill just have to keep thinking unless you have any good ideas for me im 17 and im doing a bunch of custom stuff to my car this winter and all of it is done with simple cutting tools and sanding basically....this is the only thing i havent completly figured out yet.

Well, not to get into the it is or it isn't, but "technically" it is ram air. Most of you are making arguments as to the validity of horsepower made because of the manifold pressure. HOWEVER, the effective enrgy produced by driving even five miles per hour is pushing or "ramming" air into duct work. With this setup he IS getting more air than a typical stock setup. Most cold air setups are setup to allow cooler air, but still rely on the engine to "pull" the air in. However in this case Air is readily available so the engine has to do less work to get the air it needs. While true "raim air" by most of your definitions would be a positive charge (supercharger, etc...) His system works differently than your typical cold air by having a positive amount of air while the car is in motion for the engine to than pull from. So if you want to get "technical" yes his setup is ramming air. Is it also CAI, yes. Is it a supercharger? By no stretch of the imagination...

PS it looks sweet!

Anyone know where to get this stuff where its not too expensive?, it would look pretty bad A$$ in a z grill if done right.

no. its not.

it is however a low resistance cold air intake. but there is ZERO "ramming" going on.

I can tell you guys this. It made a NICE improvement on the butt dyno even when I had the stock 350 in the car. You will notice a difference with this setup!

Now, if I can only make a stock style high flow air-lid.................


Stay tuned!

Honestly, if you don't understand physics don't respond to this thread as you have no idea of what you are talking about. Let me give you a little lesson here.

Start walking, feel that pressure against you? Yes, you do. Now imagine you are going 50mph and you are in a wind tunnel (the ducts in which he is using). Guess what. The "force" in which is being created by the forward momentum of his car is effectively "ramming" air into those ducts. Hence "Air" is being "rammed" or "Ram Air" and a positive Air charge is being created. Now, with saying that. It once again is not Force induction (superchargers, turbo's) which is what I feel most are getting confused when he says "Ram Air". Once again, and I hate having to repeat myself. He does have Ram air, but it is not a supercharger or "force" induction by any stretch of the imagination.

and in the words of David Lee Roth and Van Halen...

Class dismissed




PS 1bad91Z You have a sweet setup there.

i BeLiEvE the idea is the vacuum is so strong that the pressure from the "rammed air" is instantly neutralized. The idea being it sucks in air so fast that regardless youre not going to get a larger amount of air into the cylinder then you would through normal induction unless you were going excessive speeds then the speed of the air would actually increase the amount of air that made it into the cylinder.

The only area i see the ram air having a more or less "ramming" effect is in throttle response. In a CAI you have to wait for the vacuum to get air into the cylinders where with ram air the air is already pushing to get in so there isnt that split second delay.

Just my 2 cents if im wrong im sure i will be corrected shortly.

No, you are correct. That portion of it is true. However, because the vacuum essentially nullifies the ramming affect PAST the throttle body it still does not mean that it is not a ram air affect. We all need to remember what he added. He didn't add a throttle body he added a kit to essentially ram air in the housing to allow for more air to be available. The kit he put on does ram air. However, it does not "flow" more air than the vacuum provided by the engine. Still does not mean it's not ram air, just means it is an in efficient super charger

Thanks to all that like the setup!

Me and a buddy of mine are currently in the process of developing a high-flow air lid to compliment the ram-air boxes.

Hopefully sometime in 2004, we'll be offering a complete kit that will include the ram-air boxes, high flow housing, high flow lid and high flow connecting tube (bellow that connects to the throttle body), with optional grill screens.

It will make a NICE gain in power and gas milage!

Again, stay tuned!

nevermind, i dont have the time to wait.


just read:


There are many air intakes on the market today. Many claim "superior" performance over others.

Air intakes can be seperated into specific catagories:

- Those that take in warm engine bay air
- Those that are exposed to cooler/fresher air from the front.

The biggest bennefit of adding an aftermarket air intake is unshrouding the factory air box.

The last bennefit is exposing it to fresh air.

Ram Air is a myth, and many intake manufactures use the word Ram Air strictly for propaganda. They also try to show track results compared to other intakes that simply incur too many variables to make a meaningful and empirical determination. 60 foot times, atmospheric changes, shifting, etc, etc. So do not beleive anything you hear regarding such claims regarding air intakes.

Lets take a look at the "Ram Air" Myth in automobiles:

The Ram Air Myth by Dave Rodabaugh

The Ram Air Myth is the most mythical of them all. It differs from the other myths, in that the other myths are misinterpretations of physical phenomena, whereas ram air simply does not exist.

MYTH: Use of a scoop on the front of the vehicle to collect intake air, or provide “ram air” can raise engine performance.

TRUTH: At automobile velocities, there is no ram air effect.

SIMPLE EXPLANATION

The "Truth" statement says it all. How much simpler can it be? The Ram Air effect is a total myth because it simply does not exist. “But Pontiac uses it on the Trans Am, and they know more than you do.” To those who offer this, tsk tsk. Careful reading of Pontiac’s statements on the matter reveal that the HP increase of the WS6 package are a result of a less restrictive intake, and a freer-flowing exhaust, NOT any ram air effect.

So why does Pontiac use Ram Air? Easy! To make people buy their cars! And they are quite effective with this strategy.

DEEPER EXPLANATION

Of all of the applied sciences, fluid mechanics is among the most difficult for many people to comprehend. It is a relatively youthful applied science as well, meaning that it has not had two or three centuries of work to mature into an applied science on par, with say, chemical combustion. To make matters worse, it is mathematically defined almost entirely by experimentally-determined mathematics.

This last point is the true differentiator between those who only understand concepts, and those who can quantify what they are discussing. Truly, quantification is the real skill of the engineer. It is one thing to speak about qualitative issues (the “what” of the physical sciences); it is entirely another to quantify them (the “how much” and “to what extent” of the same). In grade school, students are first taught about “closed form mathematics” and then that these mathematics are typical of scientific expression. A good example of this is Newton’s famed “law of action and reaction”, the mathematical expression of which is a succinct F=MA. So straightforward. So simple. Three variables in perfectly-defined harmony. Given any two of them, the third is easy to nail down.

Unfortunately, a vast, vast majority of the mathematics used in engineering are NOT closed form. Instead, they are multi-variable correlations valid only for a narrow set of circumstances. Deviate from those narrow circumstances, and a new expression must be experimentally derived. Fluid mechanics is almost entirely defined by these experimentally-determined expressions, further muddying an applied science not well understood.

And if there ever were an applied science for which common sense is wholly inappropriate, it is fluid mechanics. Virtually nothing obeys the “common sense” rules of observation, explaining why those who believe in ram air have extreme difficulty in believing that is simply does not exist.

The Deeper Explanation begins with a basic explanation of engine principles. Air and fuel must be combusted at a specific ratio, namely, 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel (this is a chemical ratio). Stuffing more fuel into the cylinders without increasing the amount of air they also swallow will get no gain whatsoever. So the hot rodder’s adage “more air = more power” is proven correct. Figure out a way to stuff more air into the cylinder at any given RPM and throttle setting, and you can burn more fuel. Since burning fuel is what makes power, more air truly does create more power.

The amount of air which is inducted into a cylinder is a function of the air’s density. As the air flows through the intake tract, it loses pressure, and as the pressure decreases, so does the air’s density. (Denisty is mass divided by volume. Since cylinders are a fixed volume, increasing the density will also increase the mass of the air in the cylinder.) There are two ways to increase the pressure and density of the air inducted into the cylinders:

- Decrease the pressure drop from the throttle plate to the cylinders

- Increase the starting pressure at the throttle plate.

Ram air is an attempt to do the second. Under normal circumstances, the air at the throttle plate is at atmospheric pressure, and this pressure drops until the air reaches the cylinders. Ram air would start the process at some pressure higher than atmospheric, and even though the drop is the same, the cylinder pressure is higher because of the increase at the start.

Just how would this increase in pressure at the throttle plate occur? The oft-wrong “common sense” says, “If a scoop is placed in the airstream flowing around the vehicle, the velocity of the air ‘rams’ the air into the scoop, thus increasing the pressure.”

Why is this incorrect? There are two types of pressure: static and dynamic. Placing of one’s hand in front of a fan, or out of a moving car’s window, clearly exerts a force on the hand as the air diverts its path to flow around it. Most people would say “See? This is a clear indication that ram air works. Clearly there is pressure from the velocity of the air.” Well, this is correct, but only to a point. This is an example of dynamic pressure, or the force any moving fluid exerts upon obstacles in its path as the gas is diverted around the obstacle.

What an engine needs is static pressure. This is the pressure the same fluid exerts on any vessel containing it at rest. For those who were physics/chemistry geeks, it is the pressure caused by the force of the molecules bouncing off of the walls of the container. The key to understanding the difference between static and dynamic pressure lies in the velocity of the gas. Dynamic pressure is only a momentum effect due to the bulk motion of the fluid around an obstacle. Static pressure is an intrinsic property of a gas or fluid just because the molecules of the fluid are moving around. Any fluid which is moving can have BOTH dynamic and static pressure, but a fluid at rest only has static pressure.

The point of ram air would be to increase the static pressure, which would correspond to an increase in the in-cylinder air density, and of course, more air. Superchargers and turbochargers do what the mythical ram air purports to do. A supercharger trades the power of the belt and uses it to compress the air in the intake tract. This energy trade-off results in an increase in intake air pressure, more air in the cylinders, more fuel burned, and more power. A turbocharger trades the power of the hot gases and uses it to compress the air in the intake. The overall effect is the same – an increase in intake static pressure.

For ram air to work, it would have to trade the energy of the air’s velocity (as the vehicle moves through the air) for an increase in static pressure (since static pressure is a part of a gas’s internal energy, we see this is TRULY a trade in kinetic energy for an increase in internal energy). Now for the true reasons why ram air is a myth:

- The way for air velocity to be traded for an increase in static pressure is to actually SLOW IT DOWN in a nozzle of some sort. This is easily the MOST counterintuitive part of fluid mechanics for most people. The “common sense” mind says “In order to increase the pressure of the intake, the velocity of the air needs to be increased, just as increasing the speed of a fan exerts more force upon the hand.” Not only does this confuse dynamic with static pressure, but is also misses the point, which is to trade the kinetic energy of the gas for an increase in internal energy. How can this trade occur if the kinetic energy of the gas is increased? It cannot, and in fact, the only way to trade it is to use the velocity of the gas to compress itself – by slowing it down.

- Below about Mach 0.5 (or about half the speed of sound), air is considered “incompressible”. That is, even if the correct nozzle is selected, and the air is slowed down (the official term is “stagnated”) there will be zero trade. No kinetic energy will be traded in as work capable of compressing the air. The reasons for this are not discussed here; the reader may consult any reputable fluid mechanics textbook for confirmation of this fact. In plain English, a car is just too slow for ram air to work.

Still not enough evidence? Here is a little test. For ram air to work, the nozzle must be of a specific shape. The “Holley Scoop” for the Fiero is the wrong shape, by the way. The fact that it has no net shape at all immediately means it cannot effect any kind of energy trade off, so it cannot possibly create ram air. This is also true for the hood scoops on the Pontiac Firebird WS6 package as well, by the way.

What shape must it be? There are two kinds of nozzles. Pick one:

- Converging. This nozzle gets smaller as the air flows through it. It has a smaller exit than entrance. If the nozzle were a cone, the fat end is where the air would enter, and the narrow end is where it would exit.

- Diverging. This nozzle is opposite the other; it gets bigger as the air flows through it. With a larger exit than entrance, the narrow end of the cone is where the air would enter, and the fat end is where it would exit.

So, which is it?

Without hesitation, most of the “common sense” crowd will answer “Converging.” BZZZZT! Thank you for playing anyway! We have some lovely parting gifts for you! Bill, tell ‘em what they’ve won….

The answer is “divergent”. Yes, the nozzle would have to shaped so that the skinny end is pointed into the air stream, and the fat end connects to the throttle plate. How can this be right? Remember, to increase the static pressure of the intake air (which is the true “ram air” effect), the kinetic energy of the air must be traded to compress the air. This is done by slowing the air down, or stagnating it, and the only way to do this is with a diverging nozzle. Ah, but since air is incompressible at automobile speeds, it doesn’t matter any way.

Conclusion

Ram air is a myth because it does not exist, for the following reasons:

- Air is incompressible at any automobile speed., meaning that the kinetic energy of the air cannot be used to compress the air and raise the static pressure.

- The “ram air” nozzles commonly employed on automobiles tend to be the wrong shape. A divergent nozzle is required for ram air. Straight-profile scoops cannot provide a ram air effect.

Select one of the two types of intakes, warm air, or cold air. Beyond that its just about looks.

Guys, listen............

This setup makes more power AND helps with gas milage. Traxion even proved it with 1/4 mile results and his setup is a little more restrictive than mine!

So, with that said, who cares about the name! Let it rest.

If all goes well, I'll have a complete kit proto-type in the next few months that will include: the "ram-air" or "CAI" boxes (which ever name you prefer), high flow housing, high flow lid and high flow connecting tube (bellow that connects to the throttle body), with optional grill screens.

The hard part will be keeping the price down. Materials for this project is not cheap!

I'll post pics as soon as the proto-type is finished.

:lala:

lol I didn't even read all of that, because I got to the point when you said automobile speeds wouldn't make a difference. lol

Let's put you on the hood of bad91's car and let him do 60mph and you tell me that you feel no "ram air" affect at all lmao That's funny. You stil don't believe in Gravity, Force, Velocity, Air Density or any other physical property involved in his "ram air" setup

The problem with the stock air box as im sure all of you know is the way it gets really thin at about half way up it....The reason it is like this though if the section of the hood that is the support for the latch comes down and there isnt space so they have to make that section of the air box really thin. To put a better flowing air box on it will require cutting out a portion of the underside of the hood and having bracing welded in. This is more then most people want to do to create a slightly better flowing air box, although i do plan on doing it this winter at some point. Will have pics when im done. My friend is convinced he can do fiberglass so were going to give a couple things a shot.

anyhoo. you dont get it......... i think this sums it up:

i really want to see how this comes out.... good luck



also if you moved the "tray" that holds the filters down somwhat, im betting you could start the curve a little sooner.... making a larger radius bend........... athough thats a little more work...

gravity -- The natural force of attraction between any two bodies, which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

force -- nope sure dont believe in the force.... but may it be with you

Velocity -- A vector quantity whose magnitude is a body's speed and whose direction is the body's direction of motion.

Density -- mass divided by volume... if you read what i posted above, i already said that.




now explain to me the diff between dynamic pressure and static pressure.... im sure you know that right?

OK, I'll say it again!

WHO CARE'S about the name~! Let it rest people!


Anywho, yea I know that there's not much that can be done with the flat part of the lid due to hood design. However, the rear section of the lid has alot of room for improvement. The rear opening of the lid will be the same oval shape and size as the throttle body and maybe a little more area can be added in the Y -area (front right and left filter housing cover areas). Then, the Throttle body bellow will be geometrically the same, all the way from lid exit to the into the Throttle body.

It's going to be interesting to say the least!

take pics as you go along....

The round part on the back of the Y is for us MAF guys.

Sounds like a bad *** project though. Good luck with it.

-Jesse

Actually my idea is to remove the entire latch area on the bottom side of the hood and put bracing in, replace the latch with hood pins, and then make it so the opening for the filter is the entire space so everything including the space between the two stock filters. I am cutting out the center part on the front bumper cover and the bumper so instead of having two scoops its going to be one big scoop. Then my replacement air box wont have the restrictions that the hood had and it will be about what 2 feet wide? its going to be awesome when its done and yes i will be taking pictures.

The whole idea behind my setup is to make a "bolt-on" kit with as little modifications to the car as possible.

Removing hood latch and installing hood pins is out of the question.

ok well the "ram air" thing is settled..so argue about this...anyone know where to get perforated sheet metal? Aside from buying a copmlete danali grill..

Nope, but I know where to get Z06 screen.

Will you offer the ABS boxes with screens by themselves? I'm not really concerned with the lid and bellow.

Yes, the boxes and screens will be available separately from the lid and TB bellow.

Also, if all goes well with the high-flow lid, then I will make one to work with a MAF car too!

:lala:

Hey Mike why dont you call it a "send air box" hehe I dont think anyone would have a problem with that, since it is sending air to your motor! Just a thought

Hey anyone know how to get sig pics made now, i checked out the website, do I just email them to him or what?