@Jstcrzyengh: Thanks! I went with the '93 because, well it was available! Try finding a '98+ up Z28 dash with airbag in tact for $40, I've been looking around and this was too good to pass up. The instruments can be changed to the newer style which look a little nicer. Or I may get some white faced indiglo inlays and it'll all be the same anyway. As far as the HVAC equipment is concerned, I would assume the hardware between '93-97 and '98-02 is the same, however I am unsure of what lies ahead to do it, I am just confident that there is a way, and I want to do it. @IHI: It's unlikely I'll be removing the windshield, however do want to do the top pad properly to conceal everything. So there's a top pad that sits on top towards the windshield, correct? That's what you're talking about trimming? Do you have any close up shots of the trimmed pad either installed or not? Any other info is great; I appreciate it.

Depending what year your dash pad-the one that touches the windsheild-is from major trimming is involved. I know my 98 firebird pad literally hung over my distributor when I had it set on the dash to start my marking for trimming. Trimming to fit took awhile with the windsheild out to make it easier-plus the car had just been painted so I got to cheat because of that! I only say if you have the windsheild out-mark and paint the inside for a factory apperance. I screwed up royally with mine. When the guys came over to install the glass I was tinkering with something else in the shop and blew them off. Once it was glued in place I said I wish there would've been some way to hide that huge gap. That's when they hit their head and said, dude you shoulda said something, we coulda masked and painted it. Ended up having my decal buddy get me a peice of black vinyl that I laid over the outside and trimmed to fit the contour of the dash. 99% of the people never pay attention to it unless I point it out then their like o, I did'nt even notice. Just one more thing to chaulk up on this kinda install since nothing is written in stone and I never gave it much thought on the painting idea.
Right now the car is in the trailer, once we get up to Detroit tomorrow night/sat morning I'll try and remember to get a couple pics for ya to see what I'm talking about.

Any of you guys with digital cam you think you'd be able to post some pics of the different year dashes and door panels for the firebirds and maros? I want to go 4th gen but not sure which one I gonna like. thanks for any help

This is a 93-02 Firebird dash,


I believe the door panels stayed the same for both cars from 93-02.

98-02 Camaro Dash:


93-97 Camaro Dash:


It would appear all 4th gen birds had the same dash (not certain though):


It's just different vent placement really, the bird dash is the most popular, 93-97 seems to be the least popular, especially 93 since it's got poopy colored gauges, but you can change that a number of ways. I got the 93 because it was dirt cheap!

I believe the 93-97 firebird dashes were grey, while 98+ were black. Or something close to that.

All 4th gen birds did have the same dash, with black (ebony) becoming an option in 00-02. Bird had 2 different door panels, One with 2 speakers per door, and one with one speaker. Camaros had different door panels than f-birds, but only available with one speaker per door.

Ok thanks guys that helps alot. I like the ebony so prolly gonna go with an 00 dash, but say if i went 00 or even 98 what bird gauge clusters would fit, are they the same too?

Any instrument cluster ought to fit just fine, however I think it'd be ideal to find as complete of a dash setup you can (ie. find a dash with instruments). In the long run piecing it together just might cost a little more, that's all.

Ok cool was wondering cause custom x mentioned about the tach and fuel gauge. So if I go with a 2000 dash and get a 94 cluster I should be fine. I want a black dash so have to go with the 2000-02.

The camaros got the new dash in 97. 93-96 are the same.
I have a 97 Camaro cluster in my 95 Formula dash.
98+ Clusters use Serial DATA from the PCM to most of the gauges I was told. Also, they use a 4cyl tach signal as well.
I slapped a new gauge into my car tonight to see what it looks like,

That's one big mama-jama NOS gauge!!!

It is but it was free, , so I am not complaining.

Also remember that 93-96 Camaro dashes had a different shaped cluster than any year Firebird or 97+ Camaro. These camaro dashes also are the only ones that won't form properly with a 98+ console. It doesn't go down far enough and theres a 2 inch gap in between.

And I personally think that the 93-96 dash is the best. They look more like they belong in a thirdgen... 4th gen bird dashes are too wavey IMO.

Ok so I have it narrowed down now LOL. Either gonnna go with the 96 firebird dash and 97 gauge cluster. Or 00 dash and 97 gauge cluster.

TPIroc, I'm would love to see what you have done once you get into this.....

I'm one of those people that need some direction before jumping into it.......pictures and doumentation would be a great help......Look forward to it.....

The camaro is getting retired as a daily driver, so i plan on doing this swap while it's sitting around, would love to update the dash, but i live in Florida, so A/C removal is not an option........

Good Luck and keep us posted......

...and I'd just love to be that TGO hero with the 5 page pictorial on the guide on 4th gen "insertion" I really hope I'm not "all talk" if you know what I mean, I do really want to do it 100% (HVAC & all), and would hate to "give up" and just slap it in. I just know that people on this board have done wilder, this would just be a matter of calculation, patience, and ingenuity. We'll see! I think a 4th gen dash would be cherry in your ride

Got back from the magazine shoot in Detroit Sat. night around 10:30pm, talk about an endurance driving test-wow. Anyways, the shoot went well and I got my wish of blowing something up, while the motor was prefered it ended up being the rear end AGAIN!! I have'nt pulled the cover, but am sure it's missing teeth again on the ring gear since that's what happened this summer and the nosie/feel is exactly the same so now I have a reason to finally order my Ford 9". This dash was literally the only thing that helped push my car into the spot for the mag, I talked awhile with the photographer and he said the bad thing aboutmy car was it was red and had stickies out back, red, white, and black cars are a dime a dozen as well as 3rd gens with stickies especially in the Detroit area, so the fast it met their basic requirements but had the 4th gen interior was what pushed it into place. One thing I found out that was interesting is that right now most car mags are working on the June 04 issue already and they try to stay 5-7 months ahead of schedule. He told me the fastest turn around from pictures to magazine was 6 months because they were in a pinch, but it usually takes 1-1 1/2 years before the pics make it to public distribution. I had no idea, but interesting to find out, tons of paperwork to fill out, but ultimately I think it was worth it for timeless bragging rights I guess. He was also telling me mags dont look at flashy car with big facy custom rims and crazy custom paint jobs, their excuse is they are trying to get away from the import theme that Hot Rod is starting to take on. He told me he's seen flawless and absolutely beautiful cars get ragged on and torn apart for this or that and the mag editors pretty much could care less how much time/money/effort went into the car since it's too flashy. Just some FYI that I'll pass along since I was clueless about all this before I left for the photo shoot. Hopefully I'll know by mid Decmember what issue my car will be in and i'll pass the word-heck it's like pulling teeth just trying to get this guy to sell me duplicates of what he shot Sat. morning-and I'm even paying for that-all said and done this little trip cost me $623.73 plus another $250 for new decals next season since I had to remove all my sponsor/contingency stickers and I cant even get a complimentary issue of the mag when I'm featured or free photos of what he took. Kinda a goofy deal, but it's all done now so WTF right.
I will say for the burnout shoot I made John Force look like a sissy if I do say so myself, 25-30 sec at 7500rpm in second gear on the line lock, 20hrs of buffing/waxing/detailing and now there's the good ole burnt chunks of rubber back all over the car again I was glad since I got to smell the burning rubber again since I have'nt raced for awhile.

Wow, sounds like quite an experience! That's interesting about the stickers, the whole process sounds interesting really. Congrats again and give everyone a heads up when it hits news-stands

What's the reason why AC won't work with the 4th gen HVAC?

That's a good question, everyone just talks about omitting the AC, but never why. I assume is has to do with converting the monster cable based control system to the nice little knob. Now I'm curious, does the heater work? Is there a "loss of control" there, too? Or is it JUST the AC that's problematic? People that have done it, let us know!

I'm guessin that it's because noone's figured out how to change the manual controls to the electronic ones on the 4th gen firebird heater box. 3rd gen temp control is a simple cable, and you'd have to convert it to a solenoid that can be controled by the 4th gen switch, and the vent switch would have to be converted from a vaccuum solenoid to an electric one. Guess i should have looked at it closer when I had both a 94 and the 85 TA.

Umm, the HVAC controls I got from a 94 Camaro have a cable to run the temp, vacuum lines for changing vents, and wires for fan speed.... Seems just like a thirdgen to me.

Like i said, i was guessin, never looked at my 94, it was stock except for the lt4 conversion. got any pictures of the backside of the controls? that might help with the brainstorming on how to get it to work.

I'll try to take a picture of them when I get off work later tonight.

Here's a pic of the top of the HVAC Control panel;

Here's a pic of the bottom; I'm still curious to know if it's just the AC that's a problem or if it's Heater/Vent AND AC. There's just one cable coming off of the heat knob, and a mess of wires coming off the heat/vent/off/ac/defrost knob.

I may be WAY off base here, but it's just an idea.....

What about creating a new HVAC control unit that will fit in the spot of the 4th Gen factory one?........I don't have a heater, probably never will need one again, so my question is this.....

Could you somehow just create a knob(or use 4th gen stock one) for fan speed and a switch you can use to activate the A/C????

Turn on A/C with switch then use knob to control fan speed, turn off using same switch.....

So basically have everything setup with the AC in the permanent "on" position then simply have a knob to turn it on or off? Genius, Flynlow, genius! I have the opposite problem, in Oregon I just want the heater, no AC for me! The problem with that would be even with the fan off it let heat in - but with AC I think you may be on to something.

That is a good idea. Here in so cal we need both lol

Question, would it make much of a difference to use a 4th gen heater box? Or what difference's is there in the 4th gen cooling system. The reason I ask is my car is completely torn apart and I am building it back up from the ground up. I can input just the wiring harness for the HVAC stuff and even put in a 4th gen box, if it doesn't involve torching the firewall too badly. Since I am getting all new AC parts I could just throw the 4th gen stuff on there. Any ideas with that? Would be more than happy to share all findings, but hate to spend $1200 on parts only to find out it will not work...

Fatal88 is running the 4th gen heater box and AC in his, but he said he had to swap out the firewall.

OK, I'll admit it, I'm a cave-man when it comes to car electronics. I just want the 4th gen dash, concidering I'll have to make a full custom guage cluster, but does anyone make red reverse glow guages? i.e. black numbers white face during the day, black numbers red face at night. Gotta keep the whole Pontiac thing going.

.....Now if I can just find some donor cars.

.

I think it comes down to finding out how the cable attaches from the temperature knob on the 4th gen dash, as well as the 3rd gen dash. Then find out how each connects to the corresponding heater box. The people that have DONE the swap may be able to shed some light on the topic... [AHEM!]

I'll nab a pic of the end of the 4th gen cable for what it's worth later tonight. What are people's knowledge of the 3rd gen heater box/cable setup?

Here's two sites I recommend:
1. For the wiring of the blower fan:
http://92b4crs.tripod.com/86wiring/dia-pics/63-0.jpg
2. For the wiring of the HVAC vacuum lines:
http://92b4crs.tripod.com/86wiring/dia-pics/63-17.jpg
And I know for a fact that at the bottom end of the heater duct, where the passenger side hush panel usually is, there's a lever that is operated by the cable that is controlled by the center dial on the 4th gen HVAC controls. Now, I have left you with finding out which positions on the dials are for what fan speeds and what doors in the duct are controlled by a particular position of the dials. This should help some.

The 4th Gens Hvac setup is alot different, but with enough patiences it could be arranged. I wish I had the money and time to do this conversion myself. It looks awsome. I am certified in GM HVAC systems so If I had the two units I could deff figure out a system to uses and make. Hmm Maybe for the spring time this will be my next project. My interior is shot so the 4th gen upgrade solves most of my delema of going to a 4th of sticking with the 3rd, Problem solved there. Keep the thread goin the effort is looking well worth it.

Edit: Note to all, to view the pics Maverick posted, enter the URL manually to view it. Good info, Maverick.

This has turned out to be a very informational post for me, It has given me alot of things to do and to do to when it comes time to do my dash swap.

I have a few question.
1.) S0 when I put the Trans Am/Firebird dash in (Most likely from a 95 Formula), I have to use a cluster from a 97-02 camaro? And still use the dakota digital conversion box?
2.) If I put the 95 formula's dash in, how much trimming will I have to do to the crash pad for it to fit flush on the window? DOes anyone have any pictures or had experience with this year dash? It will be going in my 91 Z28.
3.) What about the A-Pillar? Are you guys having the modify the dash so that the stock 3rd gen A-Pillar fits? Or can you take an A-Pillar out of a 4th gen and both it up with little or no modifications?
4.) I have a B&M mega shifter, and I was wondering if it will fit in the spot of the automatic shifter console. Has anyone had any experience with this? Or should I just get a manual console and modify the shifter boot?
5.) How hard was it to make the 4th gen door panel it on a 3rd gen door? Does anyone have any step by step pictures or a tech article? I don't have all the best mechanical skills but I have alot of patience.

Thanks, any advise is helpful. And hopefully my questions help out other people wondering the same thing when it comes time do their dash swap.

Sean

1) You can use a 93-02 Firebird cluster, or the 97-02 camaro, they were similar designs. I'm not sure on the DD conversion box because i don't know the pulse per mile differences between the different gens.
2) There has beena few posts about this that show the crash pad trimming, you could search it out.
3)People have done different things with the a-pillar. to use the 3rd gen ones you have to make a piece to over up the original area covered by the 4th gen pillar. or you have to make a hybrid pillar using the lower part of the 4th gen one. I have seen afew posts on this with pictures.
4)The auto console wouldn't really work with a megashifter (i have one too, with a 4th gen manual console although i don't have the dash yet. The shifter is in a different location and it would be difficult to modify the auto plate.
5)The door panels aren't too difficult, you just have to relocate the doorhandles and locks and re-rivet the 4th gen ones in. May need some minor trimming around the area where the panel is close to the dash. I've seen posts on this too.

Well, it looks like the information is really coming together. I am wondering if I should go and fabricate the 4th gen heater ore and AC stuff or work on it with 3rd gen stuff. Also it seems like everyone is all over the firebird dash... Any particular reason why? Is it just a look factor? I am looking to pick up a dash and door panels from a 99 Z28, but if I need to go with a firebird dash I will.

I think the people that have done the swap could at least shed a little light on the subject based on their personal encounters with removing the 3rd gen HVAC alone, any feedback people?

i've pulled out the entire A/C and heater combo and swapped in a non-a/c heater box and non-a/c HVAC for the insides as well. It's all cable operated(not vacuum like A/C box) and I can't see how it would be much of a trouble to figure out on a 4th gen which vac lines control the HVAC A/C side only and just remove them. If I could see the box I am sure something could be made to work. Definately something I would like to tackle if I had the parts. As long as you could get the inner heater box to mount onto the firewall the rest should be cake. I think that would be the only hassle would be sealing it up there. Otherwise it should be plug in and go. If you had any pics or questions, let me know and i'll help to the best of my knowledge since I have about 30 hours into my camaro's system now. I also mod'd the non-a/c ducting to also use the a/c ducting's side vents which were never an option on non-a/c cars. Let me know if i can be some help.

This thread needs more pictures....

I got a few just now...

....

...

luckly I was able to mess around while I should have been working last week (I work at a F-body salvage yard in OKC. sorry the pics are crappy but i was in a hurry and had no lighting. Well the third gen heater Hot/Cold cable pushes/pulls on a bracket that rotates the door on the thirdgens. and as you can see in the second pic the mechanism directly rotates the door. I compared the boxes together and they both see to have the same range of travel so that will not be an issue. I think the only thing that would be needed is to cut the bracket off of the box and notch the remainder so that the 4th gen assembly can rotate it. I just got a dash out of a 02 Z28 yesterday and I plan on messing with it over the break. if anyone would like more pictures just let me know and I will try to get some.

wait a sec...i thoguht all ls1 cars tachs need a 4 cylinder signal....so how would 98-02 clusters woprk

Dakota Digital makes a unit that can change the signal. I believe some MSD units have a way to tap into 4cyl signals for those import guys

quite honestly, it's quite sexy in that color.