dieseldennis

Where can I get an electric vss and where does it go? Straight in the tranny , at the end of my speedo cable near the dash or somewhere else?

Dennis

Is there a brand name for an electric vss that I can use?

3rdGenSS

you can get an electric vss at autozone.. the dealership... or even a salvage yard. it goes right in where the cable drive is on the tranny. then there is 2 wires that come from it to go to the ecm... you may need a buffer box out of a 3rd gen if you dont have tpi. but that isnt a big deal. as for brand.. i am not sure.. to be honest i might actually have an extra sensor for a 700r4 tranny, but you would have to get the gears from the dealership they are like 3.50 each.. both drive and driven gear . look on autozone.com to see how much a sensor is for a 91 or 92 camaro and you are set.

dieseldennis

How much do you want for it? Is it hard to put new gears in it? I am still looking for a pic of one but if I need one I need one eh?

Dennis

john5.7 87Iroc

The gears are pretty easy to install. http://sethirdgen.org/vss.htm Hopefully I will get my dash installed one of these days in my '87 iroc. its only been sitting in my basement for over a year now.

olong_us

Darn, I just sold a VSS sensor on ebay. I had from the trans i bought for parts on my rebuild. I wondered why it went for so much

KBeez

TPIroc you're the man!!! This is helpful, I wanna do it someday, but can only imagine when.

And sorry to get off topic, but tpiroc, what steering wheel is that? That is the pimpest steering wheel I've ever seen. I have an aluminum/leather grant signature series, and up until seeing yours it's always been my favorite

tpiroc

A: Well, just be sure you can have the car parked for a while

B: It's a Grant Evolution GT model 1434. The silver part comes out and you can put different colors in it. They also make some with the metal center portion painted to match (silver, red, etc.). I put the bowtie horn button in My only complaint is that it's a little smaller than my old grant, but I still love it

As far as the interior goes... man, I've been slacking, but the car just is a low priority right now. I know I may as well button it up because once I get the new engine in I'll be so upset that I have to dink with the interior just to drive it I'd really like to get some new info up because I love having this as a sticky

nosaint

Just want to say thanks for you guys paving the way. Im about to do the conversion myself. Had the door panels for a couple of years and now have the dash.

Whats the best info you can offer since its all done?

thanks much

tpiroc

Well, from a prep & environtment standpoint, allow yourself a decent amount of time to exact the installation. Also, having at least one of the doors wide open really helps. It would have been kinda nice to the seats out, but once it came to lining it all up, I spent a ton of time sitting in them. Also, it was helpful to sit in the driver's seat to get a better idea of the dash orientation. As far as putting it in, just remember when you modify something on one side, it will change how it sits on the other, so recheck everything. It's not that hard once you're aware of everything going on. I haven't trimmed the dash top pad yet, or tinkered with the door panels yet, so no tips there (yet ). I'm not sure what else to say besides be triple sure with the wiring, and test as you go, BUT I would be sure that you disconnect the battery whenever you're working on it, then connect it to test.

HTH

85f-bird

hey, TPIroc ,
I saw the thing on the optical sensor, and also the thought that it didnt' work. HOwever, since i haven't converted to a VSS setup yet, i'm a little curious how i'm going to get the optical sensor to work with the computer, as it used to simply plug into a circuit on the back of my instrument panel. Does anyone have the wiring information on how to make the computer know how fast the car's going so i can still have the benefits of my cruise control and TCC.

5ltrbtr

I have a 92'RS and am currently looking for a 98-02 Trans-am. I plan on swapping everything. not as in depth as Fatals but from engine to gas tank. What wiring would i need to keep from my car.

FlamedROC

ok what i dont get about this is on left hand side of each of the wires discribed is "C1-C3" or "C1-C1" and on the 4th gen side theres "D8" and "D4" what do those mean? I would asuume the connector location but they make no sence that way...

Faded

The thirdgens had two harnesses that plugged into the gauges. 4th gens only had one.

FlamedROC

yea I know that...its just that those numbers dont seem to cordinate with my connector and that diagram...nor with my thirdgen connectors...Are you guys confused on what im talkin about?

Jason

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

I'm contemplating this but my car is a DD so time is of the essence. And of course I have a few quick questions.

How much actual cutting of the car and dash was required? Just the few spots that have pictures or is it a pretty much every noook and cranny has to be slightly bent etc.

Also are all the wire colors the same in all 4th gens? If I just have to do a little clipping and then go by a diagram I'm not worried but if its endless wiring it will be a little trying.

As for the console, does any modding have to be done for a auto console?

85f-bird

i'll be the one stop answer shop for now....cutting on the dash, it's not really that much needed, i used a 4th gen dash frame, however i did remove the HVAC vents from the frame, i'm going to worry about getting the defrost stuff setup for winter time, but that's about all i'm really worreid about. There was some cutting that was done to the bottom of the 4th gen frame however, where it would meet the 3rd gen frame mounts (on the body) besides that it was very straight forward, after a small amount of cutting and bending, new holes were drilled which will allow bolts to pass through those holes. 4 of 5, or ... 3 of 4 of the top plastic bolts line up, and 3/4 or 4/5's of them are more than enough to keep the dash in place w/o to much play.

Wiring is the same for early model 4th gens i believe, the 98+ cars are slightly different apparently, but for the earlier stuff, it should be pretty straight forward, when you get your dash, you'll enjoy having the wiring harness w/ it, as it'll allow you to get an idea as to how much wire you'll actually need, and you can make your cuts in whatever location will suit you best, also destroys the need for cutting, lenghtening, and replicing wires...(save a ton of time). only wiring i see a person having minor trouble w/ is hvac, everything else is near direct as long as you go "this color to this color, etc."

On the center consoel, and auto console will fit, however its no where near as direct a swap as a manual console is. For the auto console. What i did when swapping mine is was.....Bang down the metal brace that mounted the shifter on the transmission tunnel w/ a BIG HAMMER!!! then i relocated the holes for the shifter and placed bolts through holes (very simple) after that, the shifter was cut where needed, (and there was definately some cutting required, the stop at the far forward portion of the shifter was needed to be removed, along with a bunch of "fat" at the sides, (you'll have to look to see exactly what's hitting on your shifter plate and trim accordingly) The shifter plate then needed to be trimmed up some also, (the depth of the plate where the shifter handle actually comes throuh was too deep, as a result it'd hit the shifter, dremel took care of that. I like the shifter indicator, however i disliked the look of the stupid slide bars, i replaced the bars w/ a shifter boot (they look better and eased the instalation) then installed a more modern leather shifter on (from a 4th gen camaro) onto my 3rd gen....the holes for the retaining clip didn't line up, but it's on there so hard, that you won't need them....If you use a 4th gen shifeter you might have better luck, as the 4th gen shifter is a shorter version than the 3rd gen one....this may remove some need of cutting on the shifter plate, but...it's pretty straight forward, just be willing and expecting to do a lot of test fitting....A LOT OF IT!!!!

Also, you can see a pic of my console in a post titled some thing like "Not that anyone cares but... another 4th gen dash" by me....take a search.

85f-bird

eh, i got ambitious and found it myself.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...t+anyone+cares

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for answering questions, I've been doing alot of reading up on it and I have seen your post. The dash looks great. I've kinda committed myself to this and have been searching for a dash for awhile. How secure is the dash after you drilled additional holes? And how difficult is a shifter swap?

85f-bird

just about as secure as it would be in stock form. The drilled holes under the dash are mounting the same location they would in a factory setup, just re-bent a little. on the top side, all the holes can be used, w/ the exception of the hole furthest on the drivers side....that hole could be used, but it doesnt match the lines of the firewall that the 4th gen has. all in all, it'll barely move, as well as ur 3rd gen dash, possibly better depending on it's condition.

The shifter stuff isn't that big of a deal on the swap, it's just kinda time consuming, andhonestly i think if it wasn't for the wiring, doing an automatic 4th gen console was more work than the 4th gen dash. only IMO. I think the 4th gen shifter would bolt up the same as the 3rd gen one would, the only reason you have to drill new holes in the mounting pad (on the tranny tunnel) is because after bending it, not all 4 holes will screw in correctly...i actually think we were able to get 3 of 4 in w/o trouble, and the 4th one was drilled....after two bolts were in, the thing dind't move an inch, (just how i want it)

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

cool, most everything seems pretty easy. Would their be any benefit to using a 4th gen heater core as mine needs replaced too? Do some of the HVAC controls bolt directly to that? And did you just use custom piping to route the air?

3rdGenSS

the heater core doesnt have anything hooked up to it from the hvac controls.. not sure if it will fit physicaly in the 3rd gen though... as for the air... you can use dryer vent or something similar to custom route it.. i used the 4th gen ducting and modified it to fit the 3rd gen heater box... basically just had to cut an angle on the main opening to match up to the 3rd gen box and then used foam ..(like what is there between the box and the 3rd gen ducting) to fill in any gaps.. everything lines up and directs it the correct way.. ill try to get some pics as mine is out right now while finishing up the wireing for everything...

Stekman

What does the back of the Camaro cluster look like (93-97)? Specifically, the pigtail connector? I have a 95 T/A cluster and it has what appears to be a single connector. 2 rows, 17 pins per row. Are they the same? If not, does anybody have the pin outs for the 95 T/A?

Faded

I did not use any custom piping for mine. I used the 4th gen airbox, but modified it with the 3rd gen airbox.

Both airboxes have 3 inputs. At least my 95 Camaro dash does. One is for vents, one is for defrost, and the other is for floor.

I dremelled down the "lips" of the 4th gen airbox to make it flat, and then dremelled the "lips" from the 3rd gen airbox off and glued it to the 4th gen airbox. The only major difference between the two was that the 4th gen airbox pattern is completely flat, but the 3rd gen one has a 45 degree angle for the main vents.

I really need to take pictures of what I did... I'm sure you guys are scratching your heads as you read this. I'll also post pictures of how I modified my 4th gen selector switch to make the AC work.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Ok and most important for right now... What parts aside from just the dash shell do I need? aside from the obvious guage cluster, hvac controls etc..

john5.7 87Iroc

You will need to make sure the metal bar on the back of the dash comes with it. Im talking about the bar/frame thats screwed to the back of the dash and that then screwed in to the car. Sounds like an obvious piece but you'd be surprised at when I was looking for a dash, people were going to sell it seperate or didn't have it. Glad I asked. Might be part of you obvoius, but make sure you get all the vents, guage trim, radio trim, glove box door, a/c ducting if you plan to use it, driver side under dash panel, fuse cover panel. They all sound like they should come with the dash, but again some people wanted to sell them all seperate and when they quoted me a price at first, their definition of a complete dash was just the shell. Again, glad I asked later on what specific pieces would actually be included.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Cool thats what I was looking for... hopefully I can find one soon I'm gonna check the boneyards here but... its pretty much a lost cause its like the geo metro hell. Does anyone know of a good internet supplier that has them reasonably priced? I've been checking eBay but cant find one with a console as well to save on shipping. I called HAWKS too and they wanted something rediculus.

85f-bird

lemme' think of what's been stated already. .... yeah, u need the shell...guages, trim piece that goes infront of the guages , fuse cover door, glove box door, hush panels (2 on drivers side, for firebird's atleast), top dash panel (watch out they crack easy...my perfect one is now cracked from bumps and the dash not being 100% secured when i test drove the car...dummy) and radio trim plate. That should keep you well covered, what you'll be amazed with is after you take the old dash out, and you've collected a ziplock bag full of 7mm and 7/32" screws is that the entire new dash will have roughly, 15 screws on the whole damn thing, (except the instrument cluster, as it has screws in the rear.) 3 to the firewall, two the frame, two for your radio, two for your heater, two on each hush panel (some 4) and wham....done.

85f-bird

didn't even notice we were on page 2 yet, so i replied w/o seeing the last post. Ebay's probably going to be the best bet, but most that i've seen on there will go for 300 bux, some more, some less. they normally come w/ airbags (not needed, yet it drives up the price) and hopefully it'll have a full harness....although u could cut one out of a yard for cheaper. the sponsors tend to have stuff that's really high in price, and finding one in a junkyard w/o the bags being deployed can be near impossible ( i was lucky) ... (has anyone noticed that when a 4th gen is in a yard, despite how much or little damage the body has, the bags seem to blow up anyway?)

As long as u don't want black, and can settle w/ gray, it'd be reasonably easy to find one on ebay, buy the console at one time, (can do it first if you want) and then find urself a dash to finish up the swap. Gray tends to be the most common color to find a dash in, and as such, will be cheaper, plus when u come across one at the yards, you'll have a better chance to snag pieces of the same color, (hush panels, trim pieces, etc.) and it won't take years of hunting.

3rdGenSS

A yard near me has a few 4th gens sitting in it ... that is where i got my 98 interior.. there is a bird with grey interior there and also a 95 camaro z28 there.. from what i remember neither has the bags blown. the 95 s does not have a cluster in it.. and all the rest have the v-6 clusters.... if you would be interested in one of those set ups let me know... might be able to help ya out.. i know the guy pretty well there... and can get you everything you need at one time..ie dash, console, trim, door panels, wireing, switches... just let me know
Don

85f-bird

haven't seen anything on here from tpiroc in forever, really interested in how his dash finished up, or is finishing up. Neway i was thinking of somethign he had mentioned earlier. I had run itno the same speedo troubles w/ my dash swap as i have an 85 also, and was thinking about how the wiring of the old speedo vss could work. The problem was that a 2000ppm signal is what was being used to tell the computer how fast the car's moving, however, the damned 4th gen's use 4000ppm. So ,while simply wiring up the 4th gen connector to the thirdgen setup won't work, what about the VSS buffer box used in later model thirdgens? Those boxes are used to convert a 2000ppm signal into a 4000ppm signal that can be used for the dash speedo, and also a 2000ppm signal which goes to the computer....hmmmm, i wired it up like that to mine, and i'm getting movement, however it's not correct, now i need to re-work it and see if i can get this stupid thing to work ,if so, you could expect this swap to be all the more simple.

3rdGenSS

85f-bird.... actually the buffer box and vss signals are backward to what you are saying.. but you have the right idea... the vss puts out 4000 ppm and the buffer box splits the signal to 2000ppm for the cruise and sends 4000 ppm to the speedo so if you would wire the vss to the buffer input.. then the 4000 to the speedo and the 2000 to the ecm/cruise... you should be set...

85f-bird

guess my issue is that i'm using an old cable driven unit, had i actually been using one w/ a standard VSS i'd be in business....so, here's the other questions, does the VSS signal from the cable unit use 4000ppm, and the little yellow box on the back of the cluster then knocks that down to 2000ppm, or is that unit an actual 2000ppm setup? If it's 2000ppm, i don't think it'll be able to be converted for speedo use, as the factory buffer box would only be converting from 4k to 2k, and essentially wiring the 4k directly up to the speedo (even though it runs through the buffer, i bet it'd nearly be direct).

85f-bird

oh, and a question about tachs....

I've got a v6 bird, have guages from a 94 v6 bird also, here's the funny thing, my tach reads high, (easily redlines etc, and i know it's not right) so, did the early model v6 cars actually use a different tach signal? I was told that the v8 cars of the early 4th gen's used a v8 signal and the LS1's got a 4 cyl. signal. I'd assume that since i'm reading high, that my tach would be calibrated for a v8, as it'd recieve a reference pulse more often that it would on the 8 cylinder car, if this is the case, is the problem fixed through the coil packs on the 3.4L cars, or is this solved through another miracle box inside the 4th gen? If it's done through something other than the computer, i'd be in business.

3rdGenSS

with the factory cable unit you would either need an aftermarket converter thru jags that run or dakota digital or something.... or you can just put in a 91-92 electric vss in the tranny.. you would of course have to put the speedo gears in too.. but it isnt bad... i may actually have an extra vss... those suckers are pricey at the store... the gears are like 3 bucks at the dealer ... you would need both drive and driven gears .. then you would be in business.. dont have an answer on the vss that is in your car mouted to the back of the cluster... sorry... but the way i know will work is to put the later style in the tranny then use the box to convert for the ecm and cruise.. the later ones convert the signal at the ecm for the cruise... the box would be found in the firebirds since they had the electric speedos earlier and still used the older ecm

3rdGenSS

not sure what the reference pulse is on the 4th gen v-6 ... i do know that dakota digital makes a box to fix that problem also.. i would have thought that it used the v-6 pulse just like the v-8 tach uses the same signal.. hmmm... have to dig alittle

85f-bird

my thought is to find an 86+ bird and snag the stuff from it, w/ how many v6 cars are in the yard that shouldn' be much of a problem either, and i might just take the whole tailshaft of the transmission and bolt that to my tranny (no swaping necessary) i remember being worried a long time ago, cause everyone kept saying 90+ setup, then i was informed that this only coresponds to maro's, birds are essentially then next freakin year after mine. Also, i've heard a several people who've done the swap saying that they didn't change the gears in the tailshaft from the cable to non-cable unit, and they're in business....i mgith try that, and fi i get nothing, theni 'll be back under the car getting dirtier.

Faded

In regards to the v6 tach question...

I've plugged a cluster from a 3.4 and an LT1 into my 4th gen dash, and both the tachs read wrong for my 3.1. I guess a dakota digital coneverter is the only solution.

tpiroc

Yeah, haven't really been doing the TGO thing for a while... I've been tinkering with the door panels now, but more importantly I've been pulling the old engine and getting the engine bay ready for a respray. I'll try to keep some information coming but I'll be quite busy with the engine preparation(s).

BC

lunati397

I wish this thread was around when i did my dash swap I did mine with a LT1 t56 swap so there was alot of wiring to do
good info Ill have to get some picture up of mine did you extend the wires on your fuse box to make it reach the fuse box location of the 4th gen I did that and it makes it alot easier to change fuses and function

Stekman

<A HREF="https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=256537">My door panel idea</A>

tpiroc

That's a pretty good idea, however I haven't come across any gap. I do however have trouble with the top hump of the panel hitting the piller at the front. Perhaps I am mounting my panels differently, but I think it's going to work out gap free.

In other news, I tackled ALL electrical gremlins and have been removing all uneeded electronics (cruise, A/C, etc) to really clean things up. In a way, I've made backwards progress; my entire interior is out! Here's my dash as it sits right now:


Nice, eh?

Here's picture of my interior as is:


The silver is "RustBullet", a POR15 similar product (I think it's better, personally).

More stripped down pics.

When I get the interior rolling along again, I'll try to get some new info in here, especially on the door panels. In the meantime, here's a sneak peak at my tilt hood progress, I may make a thread about it; TILT!

Faded

Hey tpiroc, did you use metal support piece at all? I'm doing a 95 camaro dash as well. The metal support bolts up to the steering column like its meant to be there and gives you the perfect alignment of the steering wheel. The side mounts need to be cut off though, the drivers side gets in the way of the hood release. There's also a center mount that helps a lot for rigidity. I made myself a bracket and welded it to the floor pan. I'm going to be making mounts for the sides here shortly. I haven't heard much mentioned about this piece, just thought I'd mention it.

85f-bird

when i did my dash swap i thought about removing the mounts on the frame sides, but was thinking that it was the "core"of mounting it to the vehicle, so i left them in place. The one on the passanger side i bent upwards and redrilled another hole, gave it a 1.5in bolt and nut treatment with a set of washers which held it in just fine. The ohter side wasn't quite so lucky, i had tried to bend it also but it had apparently been bent around a tad much, and snapped...still no biggie, had my friend not been messing with it so much earlier it would have gone in the same location. So, my drivers side bounces a tad (not much, and it has to be a hard bump) and my pass side is nice and firm.

FlamedROC

I know there was a post on fabin up the ducting for the 4th gen dash can some one point me into the direction of that post. I search but couldnt find it!

john5.7 87Iroc

Heres how I did mine https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=259522 more pics on my cardomain site in sig

Pro

If you havnt gotten your answer yet... you can get a 99 Escalade or Denali cluster (old interior) which fits the OBS Gm trucks (95-98). Speedo goes up to like 120 and are white colored (not semi-yellow).

86IROCTHD

i dont know if it has been addressed but i know the 4th gen radio's work wit the wiring.... i have one in my car...... but now i need to see if the monsoon will work that i got in with my dash swap......

3rdGenSS

yes, the monsoon will work, but you will need all the components..i.e. the amps and speakers as well as the head unit and the connectors of course..... did you say you have the regular 4th gen cd player now? if so do you want to part with it?

86IROCTHD

no i have a tape deck..... sucks... and the monsoon is tape as well... but u dont need all the amps and what not the radio itself will power 4 speakers just fine.... but i wanna find out how they have the speed controlled volume wired in because i want this to work..... i just dont know if its runn off the vss or not..... i need to take a look at my 4th gen harness and see if i cant find out....

Faded

Speed controlled volume?